Are Brave and Killer weapons OP?

[BlueFire]

I think they're only overpowered because of their weapon ranks required to use them. Silver never seems to be my optimal choice. I think Killer weapons should need B and Brave weapons should require A. I prefer them over most legendary weapons and Braves tend to be superior offensively.

What do you think about them?

[Snowy_One]

Killer weapons are fine. The only class that seems to use them a lot are Swordmaster and, on occasion, Sniper. Their low MT and reliance on criticals make them pretty useless for any other class.

Brave Weapons are OP'ed. The auto-double simply makes it too easy to abuse and few non-bosses can withstand for strikes from any properly-leveled unit (outside of a very select few). IMO it would be better/more balanced if it made it so no one could double, but it's one attack was an automatic 'double'. Would make it so the only units desiring to use it are frail units who don't want to risk the counter and slow units who can't double without it.

Legendary weapons are fine. They're not obtained until late, usually just strong versions of 'normal' weapons with one or two unique traits, and the like. They'd be OP'ed if you started with them, but I can't think of any time you do.

[Espinosa]

Poor availability and the number of weapon uses makes sure nothing on the poll quite is OP. Add to that some minor issues with cost, hit rates (braves don't nail the enemies very accurately) and the fact that killer weapons cannot be expected to always crit when you want them to.

Legendary weapons often don't exist for long enough to matter.

[charlie_]

Killers are buyable in bulk and show early, Braves are one of a kind in most games or tend to show up latish without that many uses and by that time you're orkoing most without quading.

[X-Naut]

Killer weapons aren't that broken unless they are widely obtainable, such as in FE6, and even if they seem OP they could be toned down by lowering the crit multiplier to 2x. Brave weapons have traditionally been balanced by being very rare (one copy per weapon per game, two if you're lucky), but when you can obtain as many as you want and forge them they get a bit absurd. Legendary weapons are usually given to the player too late to break the game wide open, and may even come too late to be useful (FE7), but there have been exceptions (Horseti comes to mind).

In general only Brave weapons really need special attention. If there's going to multiple copies per game then they need to have low Might a la Shadow Dragon and either cannot be forged or cannot be allowed to double attack. In a game with skills you can also disallow skills from working with them.

[Carter]

I thought they were both okay, mainly because Luck could lower the Critical by a lot..

And Brave weapons are weaker than silver, and have less accuracy.

[Shadow Mir]

I don't really see any of these as overpowered (and I'd even say killers are underpowered in Radiant Dawn).

[Tables]

As others have mentioned, all of these weapons are typically balanced by extremely high costs, limited availability, or both.

Killer weapons tend to appear relatively early on, and are generally some of the best weapons for quite a while. Being generally stronger than Steel, with lower wt (when applicable) and of course +30% crit (which typically OHKOs or close enough for the next hit to kill) makes them extremely valuable. Add in they have a low weapon rank usually, and that it's fairly common that switching to silver (if it's even an option) won't change the #HKO of your attack, and Killer Weapons tend to be extremely strong weapons. They are however, limited by availability - often you can't buy them until late, and even if/when you can, they're expensive. But in general, Killer weapons are among the most useful 'special' weapons, I find, but thanks to the availability issues I think they're balanced.

Braves are typically among the best weapons in the game, what with attacking twice being awesome. But they have even bigger drawbacks than Killers in a lot of games. It's rare that they're ever sold (having just checked FE5-13, only FE8 and FE13 ever sell them) and when they are sold, they're expensive and it's very late into the game. And on top of that, in the GBA games they're very heavy, meaning often only the high CON units can use them and still double. In other games of course that doesn't apply. Perhaps the only time they're notably broken is in FE13's postgame, where they're by far the best weapons.

Legendary weapons are designed to be OP, and of course are one of a kind (er, usually), extremely powerful but often aren't available until very late. They aren't overpowered because of those distinct drawbacks, I'd say.

Finally I'd put it to you the most OP weapon over FE's history is the Hand Axe. Maybe only from FE6 onwards, considering axes were pretty awful in early games, but the Hand Axe typically has sufficient hit and might, availability for most of the game, 1-2 range and a relatively low price tag.

[Emeraldfox]

I think Braves and Killers are okay how they are. Legendary weapons are too weak and their bonuses are often meager. They need a huge buff.

[Melonhead]

Depends on how they are implemented. Brave weapons are often extremely rare (rarer than legendaries, in fact) Or come very late in the game, but are probably your best option for fighting when you have them, regardless.

As for Killers, those are luck based. You could end up with them being useless, but most of the time it's a hit or miss. If they are common, most of the time they do edge out steel stuff though. Maybe a slight debuff in availability.

Legendary weapons need more stat bonuses to really be useable. Well, that or more weapon uses. Those things break so fast I don't even want to use them!

[Shadow Mir]

Finally I'd put it to you the most OP weapon over FE's history is the Hand Axe. Maybe only from FE6 onwards, considering axes were pretty awful in early games, but the Hand Axe typically has sufficient hit and might, availability for most of the game, 1-2 range and a relatively low price tag.

Why did you mention FE6 despite axes completely sucking in that game?? Personally, I'd consider them best from FE7 to FESD.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Tables]

Why did you mention FE6 despite axes completely sucking in that game?? Personally, I'd consider them best from FE7 to FESD.

Oh, I haven't played FE6, I just know most things are about the same between FE6 and FE7. But actually looking at the stats, I don't really see it being that different compared to FE7? From a cursory glance it looks like everything is 10 hit lower. I guess dropping 10 hit when you're likely already slightly shaky is a point in favour of Javelins though.

[Shadow Mir]

Oh, I haven't played FE6, I just know most things are about the same between FE6 and FE7. But actually looking at the stats, I don't really see it being that different compared to FE7? From a cursory glance it looks like everything is 10 hit lower. I guess dropping 10 hit when you're likely already slightly shaky is a point in favour of Javelins though.

Yeah, the big issue in FE6 is that weapon accuracy in general is lower (usually by 10 to 15 points) relative to FE7 or FE8.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I won't even call Javelins reliable in FE6

Or Lance for that matter. Because everytime I switched Marcus weapon into Javelin and attacked a Merc, I prayed

Edited August 24, 2013 by JSND

[dondon151]

for killer weapons, it depends on the game. sometimes the enemies have luk, and more recently the killer weapons have been getting weaker in terms of MT and crit.

brave weapons are always way too good for their requisite weapon rank.

[The Fush]

Braves and Legends have been fine with me throughout the series, and in most games, so have killer weapons due to their earlygame rarity.

The only time Killers have felt OP to me was in Awakening, where they were more frequent and had excellent power to boot.

[Jotari]

I think weight really helped to stop brave weapons being overpowered. They were heavy so it was rare you'd get the X4 attacks. And really how could X4 attack not be overpowered? Especially if you have skills that can activate on any one of those attacks.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

. And really how could X4 attack not be overpowered? Especially if you have skills that can activate on any one of those attacks.

KOT Patch Brave Weapon lol

[Redwall]

Brave weapons are fine in FE12's H3 and H4 since they come so late and since Swordmasters and Horsemen (and I guess Snipers sometimes) are the only two classes that can otherwise double by that point in the game. I think they're also OK in FE13's maingame since they come late unless you're using Spotpass. But in the other games I've played, I recall them being pretty OP.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Redwall

[Samias]

Forged braves in FE13 are the most broken weapon in the game, but in other games the rarity of braves lowers the amount of shenanigans going on. However, any brave weapon you get is typically the most powerful weapon offensively, even moreso than legendaries. Personally I think killer weapons are fairly balanced. The GBA games were the only ones I could think of where I would use a lot because the girls had too low con to make use of steel. In FE10, the reduced power of killers made the weapons fairly poor for the cost. When I think about it, the legendaries are in a decent place, except the consistency of weapons is all over the place.

[Nicolas]

Brave weapons are overpower, but they come too late to broke the game.

So they are OK.

Legendary weapons is overpower in FE8 (Duessel with Gram ORKO everything), but main reason why FE8 is too easy is not legendary weapons, but Seth.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Nicolas

[LunaSaint]

Killers are great. Good availability, excellent stopping power, but enough inconsistency to not be broken.

Braves vary a lot. Main factors are how enemy defenses scale with player offenses. If enemy defense is too low, then they're not OP because they're unnecessary. Too high, then they aren't hitting hard enough to break the game.

Legendaries are fun too. The high availability ones (FE6, FE8, FE4) are good because there's usually a few opportunities where you want the big guns. FE4's are broken because of repairs and Forseti. Others are usually quite weak, for many varying reasons.

[Icon of Sin]

Killers : Fun to gamble with, strong and generally light when it matters, appears generally late enough to give steel a bit of time to shine at least. They're fine.

Braves : Usually they're rare enough, but when they're easy to access, such as FE4 and 5, they do tend to be one of the best options to have around, especially when one doesn't mind their usually heavy weight. Then again, it's often like that with weapons that can strike twice in one go. Reminds me of the Wind Sword back in Paladin's Quest/Lennus, which ended up being the most powerful weapon of the protagonist despite only modest power because of that.

Legendaries : FE4's and arguably FE3's are probably the strongest in the series, the former for their ease to repair and the latter for being fairly easy to access, doubling experience gain and being unbreakable with the Star Orb. 6 and 8 offer a certain progression that makes some better than other, plus their effectiveness can be counted on. Otherwise they're not that noteworthy. FE9 didn't have a whole set, same for FE7 with also them being amazingly heavy, they appeared pretty late in FE10 and forging regular weapons is an expensive but doable way to make them less interesting in the last three games.

[Sasori]

I never saw killer weapons as really overpowered. They are good, but you are still relying on luck to get the most out of them. They where extremely good in the hands of fe6 swordmasters though.

Brave weapons depend on the game i'm playing. The gba games (especially 6) did it right. Brave weapons where very powerful, but take the brave axe for example. It has a massive 16 weight attached to it so people will lose speed using it, making sure it isn't entirely without risk.

Sword and lances had the same thing to a lesser extend. I thought the con system worked pretty well in balancing the brave weapons a little bit.

Brave weapons are completely broken in awakening though. They are easy to get, have no downsides and it makes duel strikes a little too effective in my opinion.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Sasori

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

They have a massive downside in Awakening known as doesn't exist

Or might as well not exist, because really, why give a fuck for an Item that can be used for a grand total of one chapter?

Edited August 25, 2013 by JSND