Kirby Mafia - Game Over

[Jalmont]

ummm well spam posts that say nothing in it "mask reads" but if you are saying one liners are "spam" have to disagree - every post communicates the mindset of a player so whatever they post obviously says something about a user otherwise they wouldn't be posting??

yes i know i hate to take up your precious "space" scorri but unfortunately i do not have to conform to how you or anyone else plays mafia. if you find that i am playing the "noob" card or not contributing, that's cool, then you can lynch me. i feel that giving reads 100% of the time is not a conductive way to play but agree to disagree

sangyul do you (or anyone else for that matter) think I'm scum because of the no lynching idea?

i haven't tried to make anyone feel bad so sorry if i hurt your feelings! don't feel like you are a bad person if you lynch me!!! if you take a fairly obvious comment that makes no attempt to hide the "appeal to emotion" I don't think you can really take it that seriously, it only becomes an issue when it's hidden but o well

discussing mechanics is only important when the mechanics have changed in such a way that there may be another optimal strategy in play - i felt the mechanics were different enough that possibly warranted a different approach

BBM's Objection defense is dumb because people's playstyles don't magically change between games (see Prims hard defending his scumbuddies) and also kind of relies on wifom to make it work.

I find it hard to believe that anyone actually believes you cannot change your playstyle. Do you really believe this? Maybe, a better question is does everyone else actually believe this ? I ask this because this to me is a really weak attack on a defense because I think good players most definitely have the capability to change how they play, and it doesn't seem like a hard thing to do at all. So that seems "bad" as in scummy to me, but then again I get the feeling so far that everyone plays pretty much exactly the same in the sense that there's no variety in playstyles so this actually could be plausible. If it isn't though, then that looks opportunistic? I want to say since BBMs got pressure on him, and without going in depth seems to suggest that he is a good lynch.

[Jalmont]

If you dislike what I do in a way that you continue to pursue it or see it as scummy because I'm not playing how you are playing; that's fine to an extent. As soon as you become irrational in doing so I will call that out. Fair warning since maybe I'm doing it for a purpose but probably not??? I D K

[charlie_]

Jalmont, you say that you find giving reads 100% of the time is a bad way to play, but you've given them 0% of the time, unless that sentence about BBM 2 posts back is meant to be a read on him but I can't tell. And people are on your case more for the fact that you're refusing to post any content over the fact you suggested no lynching. Will be happy to vote here at deadline unless something drastically changes.

And yes, people's playstyles change. Over time. They don't shift massively from one game to the next, which is what I was getting at.

[BBM]

Shinori, I don't understand what's weak and forced about an RVS votehop. Prims does literally the same thing I did in like every other game, and I've never seen you call him out for it even once. And again, this is still coming really late when I provided my explanation before your initial vote. If you'd said all this at that point, I would have thought that your vote was dumb but disregarded it after justifying myself, but as it is, it looks like you just picked something out without looking that much into it.

Jalmont, if NLing was possible and we did it, D2 becomes basically a repeat of D1, with one town player dead. NKs don't give as many associative reads because no wagon analysis, and because it'll most likely be someone who looked very townie or had a strong role. Sure, our investigation roles get a night, but the chance of them catching scum is low, so we'll be no better off on D2 as on D1. On the other hand, a ML puts us another player down, but increases the chances of getting a correct lynch on D2. The reward outweighs the risk, since the town DOES have a few MLs available to use. NLs on D1 are only really valid in OC games, because investigative roles can privately give the leader reports, which increases the town's ability to lynch correctly without telling the mafia who they are.

[BBM]

Playstyles don't change massively from one game to the next, but something like being careful to check if you're OMGUSing in your votes is fairly easy to do from one game to the next, especially for RVS votes. It only took me like two further games as scum to change my original scum meta of asking people questions instead of contributing.

[Paperblade]

I think it's pretty obvious jalmont was joking with the "help don't know wut 2 do" but maybe that's because he's my friend.

In case everyone somehow missed this. NL would otherwise mean no roles would be assigned. I get the feeling half the playerlist didn't read the mechanics either.

no lynch = paperblade lynch

[Zkirsche]

Shinori said "Wow BBM let Objection defend himself" when BBM wasn't saying anything that Objection could have said without looking stupid, as BBM's logic was "Objection did this in previous games as scum and was found out I don't think he'd do it immediately as scum in this game." Shinori's post and vote don't make sense with what BBM was saying, it feels like he's trying to set up BBM. So yeah, I guess basically what BBM said.

Why do you think he is setting up BBM and he isn't just suffering from bad logic disease? What, in his posts, tells you that. I got an answer though, so ##Unvote.

Kirsche I swear I remember you espousing the belief at some point that scum don't really get towncred from defending townies?

They don't (at least I don't give them it), but that doesn't stop them from trying.

Honestly right now I don't buy any of the major wagons. Jalmont is probably worse as he clearly isn't as lazy as I first interpreted considering all these posts he made and some of the stuff he's saying is not just rather dumb but is avoiding the issue. People have frequently asked him for opinions but he's refusing to give them. Right now though he's trying to contribute in his own way and trying to generate discussion. The same can't really be said for weapons.

##Vote: WoMC

Do you have an opinion?

[Sunwoo]

Jalmont, I think you're present and posting a lot of words, but I don't feel that you're actually giving reads or trying to contribute, and you're not making it easier for the other players to understand what your thoughts are or what you're trying to say. Like, how does this help the game state at all? Talking about mechanics can be useful in certain situations and for some games, but it should not be your sole content or even the majority of your content.

[CT075]

wrt jalmont (will address other things once i'm more coherent), I don't think that jalmont is necessarily scum for this; i'm a bit less shaky on this than on refa's "let's lynch a townie" because "let's no lynch" is probably a bit more likely to be taken seriously.

that being said i would like to see something from him. jalmont whoisscum

don't support any of the wagons right now

[scorri]

So Cam, if you don't support any of the current wagons, and you don't have a vote down, who's scum? You don't get to call out someone else for something when you haven't said who you think is scummy either.

[CT075]

i don't know

i was feeling bad about bbm but my brain's everything is going haywire right now

[charlie_]

Don't get kirsche's last post, he pretty much says Jalmont is bad but so bad that he's generating discussion (that was the only way I see him generating discussion, honestly), which makes Weapons a better vote?

Cam is outposting 2/3rds of the playerlist what is this game

[CT075]

it's ok spee sooner or later i'll stop being interested in this game and then all will be right with the world once more

[BBM]

I could go for Weapons I guess. His play is just voting for whomever has most votes for "pressure". It feels like sort of forced reaction-testing.

Not sure what to make of Jalmont atm.

[Sunwoo]

Both Jalmont and Weapons look bad to me right now. The difference between the two in my mind is that Weapons is basically posting one-liners and voting someone with votes on them without much (if any) original reasoning, while Jalmont is taking the time to write posts with quite a bit of ~words~ in them, but he isn't saying anything useful. Jalmont seems to be putting in more effort into making posts that don't say anything useful, which is worse in my eyes.

[CT075]

ughhhhhhhh my reads are flip-flopping all over the place and my gut doesn't know what to think

i wouldn't be particularly opposed to either a jalmont or a weapons lynch right now (subject to change) because even if they're not standing out as overly scummy they're both being rather unhelpful and i'd really rather not waste our nolynch now

bbm is also making me feel really really strange, like my gut is telling me to be wary of him but i wouldn't be able to build a case on him

[BBM]

Jalmont reads like somebody who doesn't know how to play NOC all that much who's sort of flailing around. On the other hand, Weapons knows how to play, which is why I currently think he's scummier.

[Grassbridger]

I have to admit, I find Jalmont's lack of relevant content incredibly annoying, but I don't think it's all that scummy. At least he's here, and he appears to be attempting to contribute, even if it is in all the wrong ways. I'd still be ok with his lynch, since he's not contributing and I can't be sure it's due to misunderstanding the game. But...

##Unvote

##Vote: Weapons

Too many one-liners. Let's see some real content beyond "pressure".

[Kay]

I dislike Kay's last vote since it's basically just a content-pressure vote when her own content consists of pressure votes and saying she doesn't find stuff scummy. Since she's choosing to pressure Jal over voting Refa for his bad suggestion, it sort of implies that she never really thought Refa was all that scummy. Sure, Jalmont doesn't have content either, but at least he's not pretending he does? Dunno, I don't really like Jalmont's posts, but Kay's leave a worse taste in my mouth. Might vote here in the morning.

Really tired so I'm not gonna say much right now, but as far as this, it wasn't just a pressure vote, I thought he was trying to active lurk. In fact, I still think he's active lurking, because no matter how much you argue that "plz be nice to me i'm teh noob" is contributing, there are many better things to say. Admittedly it might help in some incredibly small way, such as that it starts discussion and if one's going to look scummy and get lynched anyway, it's more useful to get a bunch of people talking while you do it, even if it's by annoying them. But that still doesn't mean it wouldn't be better to post other things. As has been previously stated, one can post a few reads even on D1, no one's demanding solid reads on the entire game.

Weapons is acting like normal Weapons. I don't think it's a problem.

Regarding people who don't have many reads and just slap a lazy pressure vote down, I think even Paperblade can agree that Kevin is doing that worse than I am, even if he doesn't like my explanation of my vote.

Jalmont, why are you currently voting for me? Your original reason isn't really relevant anymore, I think, so either update your reasoning or move your vote or idk something. Please make some attempt to scumhunt instead of/in addition to provoking other people into talking for you with your oh-so-useful spam.

[Jalmont]

yes i should take after you considering how much scumhunting you've done!

[Kay]

Wonderful. Do you think I'm scum, then?

[Sunwoo]

yes i should take after you considering how much scumhunting you've done!

She's at least contributed more than you have.

[Prims]

Day 1.7 - Votals

Shinori (4) - BBM, Paperblade, Refa, Weapons

Jalmont (3) - Kay, scorri, Boron

Weapons (3) - Shinori, kirsche, Grassbridger

CT075 (1) - Essbee

Kay (1) - Jalmont

Refa (1) - Shin

Shin (1) - Objection

Not Voting (1): CT075

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. You have 16 hours and 30 minutes left in the day.

[Jalmont]

Alright so here's what is up:

##Lynch Shin (wow having two dudes with near identical names isn't confusing at all :/ )

(This was originally going to be about grass but I checked and I think shin is worse).I am fairly confident in this vote and here's why:

There's an archetype to how NOC is played here: You post opinions or you get lynched. It's a good strategy for town in the sense that it forces people to take a conscious effort in the game or risk consequences. The issue is, is that if somebody breaks that or else deviates substantially from that path, it becomes problematic because people aren't sure how to respond. No, this wasn't a reaction test, I wish I was smart enough to do that. I play however I feel and go from there, but I digress. On track here, people don't know how to react in the sense that, they sense what I'm doing is wrong, and since it's not the village archetype, jump to the conclusion that it is scum.

That's fine, it makes sense. If something doesn't fit the template, you discard it. Same thing applies. The issue becomes, the mafia knows all this because they've probably played a couple games or whatever (for the sake of this game I am assuming everyone is at least an average mafia player). And that means people who break that template become much more liable to be mislynched (me!!!).

So who gives a fuck right? Like what does this have to do with shin and everything? Well, my thinking is that the mafia are more likely to really jump in on this and take advantage, ie push the lynch. Villagers are less likely to do this because they lack the info that mafia has; it is inherently bad village play to focus on one person (assuming everyone can figure out why). My thinking is that the mafia are more prone to do this in the sense that they have all info and therefore no incentive to really try as hard as villagers.

Another issue with the archetype is that mafia easily slim through the cracks when people are focused on an obvious target. Red flags go up when people aren't posting opinions. And therein lies why I think Shin is scum. I feel he's very much slipped through the cracks in the sense that people see him post and go, "There's an opinion NEXT". What he has posted so far suggest to me an indifference to posting, meaning that it feels he is just trying to get by at the moment. The mafia have no other incentive to post other than to appear like a villager, and at times, the they are prone to getting lazy and not really trying hard because they have all the info. Meta could help me make a better judgement, but I don't have that so this I feel is the best of what I do have. It's the sort of behavior I think gets by unpunished because of all the interest in me. It might be that that people pushing me are town who genuinely believe I am mafia. Or maybe they are mafia trying to get an easy lynch. I think scorri is the latter. sangyul maybe the former? not as strong on that feel

I was going to post something semi-inflammatory to the above but I decided not to. Be proud of me

[Sunwoo]

Uh, Jalmont, while I do think that Shin needs to post opinions and be more noticeable (along with a couple other people), it doesn't take four paragraphs and a few stand-alone sentences to build a case on him. Most of your ~words~ were an explanation of the "archetype" of how NOC is played. I think we all know how NOC is played and stuff, you don't have to repeat it back to us and "tell us how it is". It doesn't contribute, fluffs up your post, makes it look like you're posting a lot of content when you're not, and makes actually relevant things easier to miss.

Okay, so, you think Shin is scum. You gave passing opinions on scorri and me but nothing too committal. If no one else is feeling a Shin lynch, who ELSE would you be willing to lynch?