Jill vs. Haar

[Chiki]

Ah okay. Do you think Jill is getting the Boots?

[Redwall]

Tbh I don’t see a clean application of multinomials here. Care to clarify?

I'm just saying that because an extra point of Def is equivalent to n effective points of HP (where n is the # of hits you'll sustain), it's more correct to treat a level-up as having four branches of possibilities (+HP and +Def; +HP only; +Def only; neither Def or HP) using the multinomial distribution and establishing some minimum value of HP + n*Def, as opposed to using the binomial distribution to find a minimum value of Def and a minimum value of HP and computing a joint probability.

[a.f.k.a. Howard Hughes]

Why are we ignoring the flaw in this argument that he is assumin unpromoted jill can use paragon with her 5? skilL capacity?

[Narga_Rocks]

Why are we ignoring the flaw in this argument that he is assumin unpromoted jill can use paragon with her 5? skilL capacity?

I doubt anybody actually read what he said word for word and just skimmed instead?

[shadykid]

In a perfectly played game, does Jill!Every booster ever provide such a significantly superior character over Haar!speedwings?

perfectly played game=Jill is on RNG steroids and murders everything immediately

I doubt you want to go that way

Edited September 9, 2013 by shadykid

[XeKr]

Ah okay. Do you think Jill is getting the Boots?

Yes, if Jill can actually reliably kill Ike + Jill and Haar (or whoever else) otherwise perform identically (or close enough) in part 4.

However, formally, the worth of a unit is (imo) measured by the expected number of turns gained in their absence (in an ensemble of varying non-specific team compositions blahblahblah). And not having Jill is still only worth her pre-part 4 turns, as Haar (and royals and etc) do exist as well as the million resources she took up (including the Boots).

I'm just saying that because an extra point of Def is equivalent to n effective points of HP (where n is the # of hits you'll sustain), it's more correct to treat a level-up as having four branches of possibilities (+HP and +Def; +HP only; +Def only; neither Def or HP) using the multinomial distribution and establishing some minimum value of HP + n*Def, as opposed to using the binomial distribution to find a minimum value of Def and a minimum value of HP and computing a joint probability.

Ah, that’s what you call clean? >_>

Edited September 9, 2013 by XeKr

[Greener223224]

Jill is better in FE9 due to being recruited under the same circumstances as Heath and Ephraim Route Cormag.

She is worse in FE10 because she's yet another fragile unit in a fragile army that suffers from the same availability issues as Fiona, and in Part 3 the only way to train her effectively dooms Micaiah's army.

Haar is worse in FE9 because he's a prepromote recruited 15 chapters after Jill and 2 chapters before Elincia and her indestructible Brave Sword.

He is better in FE10 because he sweeps both his maps in Part 2 and makes for a winged Gatrie in Parts 3 and 4.

[Tables]

Titania with Shinon with a Steel Bow forge + Adept. It's less reliable.

Sounds more reliable if anything (Haar needs a crit, but considering the boss is the first enemy on the map that will move in the chapter, that's not too hard). Haar would make it more reliable making the drop though, I suppose.

[Chiki]

Yes, if Jill can actually reliably kill Ike + Jill and Haar (or whoever else) otherwise perform identically (or close enough) in part 4.

However, formally, the worth of a unit is (imo) measured by the expected number of turns gained in their absence (in an ensemble of varying non-specific team compositions blahblahblah). And not having Jill is still only worth her pre-part 4 turns, as Haar (and royals and etc) do exist as well as the million resources she took up (including the Boots).

Ah, that’s what you call clean? >_>

Jill with Boots can reach some rout hotspots and use Canto really well. You can watch my vids to see how useful it can be.

Other than the Boots, the resources don't save any turns.

[PKL]

Why do I get the feeling Celes promotes his runs everytime he posts?

Anyway, I didn't actually post my thoughts on this matter before, so here you go:

I think both are amazing. But, Haar requires less resources and possibly saves more turns than Jill overall. I do agree it's a good idea to give Jill the boots in HM.

Let's evaluate what Haar can do:

Titania carrying Shinon is a lot more risky because she requires Celerity and cant really equip Savior. She also can't skip the enemies on the way entirely like Haar can and while she's weighed down, she's definetely very likely to die to the Paladin group in the right side if she full moves. Haar meanwhile can just fly northeast and drop Shinon in the sweetspot the following turn for a quick 2 turn clear with less bullshit.

3-3 he's the only unit that allows a 4 turn. I don't think I need to explain that this saves as much as 3 turns.

3-4 he's also the only unit that allows the lowest turn clear. This one saves 2 turns and is unique to him.

3-5 can't be easily replicated in HM due to BEXP being more scarce. Titania isn't likely to be able to kill the boss well. So Haar being able to ORKO semi-reliably

3-8 he's a monster here, saving like a turn by having great str to take down Generals.

3-10 technically replicable by Titania but the lowest turn clear requires both iirc. So they get shared 3 turn contribution or something.

3-11 flight saves turns, etc. Technically replicable by Tanith Marcia and Sigrun with smart play (the crossbow is never faced) but their durability makes the last turn (and the bosskill) a lot less reliable.

3-E I don't know much about HM LTC for this map, but I imagine that it's mostly the same as NM LTC. Where a flier just flies and drops people somewhere to help out. A very 1-2 range centric map and Haar is certainly not lacking in good 1-2 range. He can also recruit Jill, who can help in the last turn or something.

And then they're pretty much the same unit in Part 4. I think Haar wins.

Edited September 9, 2013 by PKL

[Quintessence]

I imagine that Haar!Speedwing replicates Jill!Everything, reliably. Quint is that so?

Yup. I'm pretty sure Haar doesn't even NEED Speedwing to replicate Jill!Everything, at least NM. There's enough BEXP in Part 2 to make Haar be a monster, I feel the wing is more a gain rather than a need for him, whereas Jill needs truckloads of resources.

Titania with Shinon with a Steel Bow forge + Adept. It's less reliable.

Isn't Celerity!Titania/Oscar dropping Wrath!Soren/Ilyana/Rhys a more reliable way rather than wasting money with unnecessary forges? (At least NM)

Also, I think the Parts thing goes this way:

Part 1: Fizzart

Part 2: Haar

Part 3: Haar haar

Part 4: Neither (the difference between them is approximately none).

[CT075]

maybe through drafts haar >>>> jill but for a regular ltc play of the game jill beats out haar

[dondon151]

i'm quite curious as to why jill would be bad in drafts, though

[Narga_Rocks]

i'm quite curious as to why jill would be bad in drafts, though

I'm guessing someone would take all the early joiners and you'd have Micaiah only for 1P to 1-5 plus 1-8? Because if you have Nolan/Eddie + Jill I don't see how that could be bad.

[CT075]

she's not a bad pick, per se, and more that if yo upick her and end up losing one of the earlier joiners in return you might be a bit hard-pressed

Edited September 9, 2013 by CT075

[General Banzai]

maybe through drafts haar >>>> jill but for a regular ltc play of the game jill beats out haar

in regular ltc wouldnt both be invaluable

[XeKr]

Jill with Boots can reach some rout hotspots and use Canto really well. You can watch my vids to see how useful it can be.

Other than the Boots, the resources don't save any turns.

You missed my point. <_<.

Your vagueness is making me lean more toward Haar, especially since there does seem to be a lot Haar does in part 3 that can’t be reliably replicated. In addition, the draft discussion strongly suggests many contexts where Jill is not dominant.

[Florete]

i'm quite curious as to why jill would be bad in drafts, though

She isn't by any means. Jill is a great draft pick. There are seven drafters and the part 1 "good" and long-lasting (aka for part 3) draftees are limited to Edward, Nolan, Aran, Volug, Jill, Meg, and Zihark; only one for each drafter, although Ilyana is often chosen before some of them, and Meg of all units is even included. Due to the freebies in early part 1 (one of Edward/Nolan through 1-2) and Sothe always being free, Jill really is potentially the best part 1 draft for her superior part 3 and 4 performance over all the others. In fact, Jill is probably the best part 4 unit in the game.

I don't think Haar should even have been banned from drafts since a good player with Titania can replicate most of what he does pretty well and she isn't banned, and anyone who doesn't get one of them should just have a stronger part 1 unless the drafter is an idiot.

But at the end of the day, this topic is not about drafts. Drafts are not the same as standard LTC runs and it's a little depressing to see all these people citing Haar being banned in drafting as the reason he is better than Jill.

I haven't checked the numbers, but in strict LTC Jill is most likely the better unit, as she would likely have more unique turns saved than Haar does. But that is just about the only context in which she's clearly better. In a more "tier" setting (whatever that is these days) Haar is better if only for being more reliable and requiring less attention.

[Espinosa]

"Turns saved" (a concept so easily destroyed) is such a questionable way to rank/compare units though. Hawk King tells me in a pure LTC the number of turns Seth saves in the whole game is equal to... three.

Anyway, did you purposefully falsify some of these arguments (Paragon on tier 1, completely leaving out how said units perform etc.)? Wouldn't expect any less by this point and it's too blatantly visible. Jill is getting the Boots to shave off a turn in one map (that she might not even shave off given the wrong statistical difference between her and Ike, as you admitted) while Haar is ignored so that Elincia takes an extra turn to defeat Ludvick just so that we show how unnecessary Haar is?

You're still the most successful troll to have ever posted here, so no worries, looking forward to more.

[Chiki]

"Turns saved" (a concept so easily destroyed) is such a questionable way to rank/compare units though. Hawk King tells me in a pure LTC the number of turns Seth saves in the whole game is equal to... three.

Anyway, did you purposefully falsify some of these arguments (Paragon on tier 1, completely leaving out how said units perform etc.)? Wouldn't expect any less by this point and it's too blatantly visible. Jill is getting the Boots to shave off a turn in one map (that she might not even shave off given the wrong statistical difference between her and Ike, as you admitted) while Haar is ignored so that Elincia takes an extra turn to defeat Ludvick just so that we show how unnecessary Haar is?

You're still the most successful troll to have ever posted here, so no worries, looking forward to more.

The only way to 1 turn 2-E reliably is with transfers and such on HM. You can't 2 turn that chapter reliably without transfers Haar.

I'm not sure why you have to get so offended and emotional with every post I make. Is this really that important to you?

[Elieson]

Please address paragon before continuing?

[Chiki]

I recall Jill being able to equip Paragon, but it's perfectly okay if I was wrong about that. I may have gotten wrong when Jill can equip Paragon. I still think Jill can reach level 20 without trouble from around 16 in 2 chapters.

[PKL]

The only way to 1 turn reliably in HM...is to give the 2-3 Speedwing to Haar. Done. Oh and give him a Hammer. It's not hard.

@ Fox- it was proven a while ago that Haar is unbeatable in drafts. The only way it can happen is if the haar team gets screwed beyond belief and the other teams get absurd combos like Edward/Jill, Elincia and Oscar together. It's not happening ever otherwise. Remember that Haar has 2-E on top of some exclusive Part 3 turnshaves and the best Part 4 in every route you want.

Edited September 9, 2013 by PKL

[Chiki]

You missed my point. <_<.

Your vagueness is making me lean more toward Haar, especially since there does seem to be a lot Haar does in part 3 that can’t be reliably replicated. In addition, the draft discussion strongly suggests many contexts where Jill is not dominant.

Sorry, but do you really think 2 extra move isn't valuable in LTC runs?

I can't give you specific examples because it's been ages since I played. Let me check my vids.

Jill doesn't need Boots in 4-P.

Jill needs Boots in 4-3. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0hue_0LuGug&feature=relmfu

[Diddy Kong]

Haar is good without transfers and doesn't need stat boosters. And he definitely doesn't need them when he joins. Haar kills everything on his path, whereas Jill... Good job on the first post though, Might actually try and use Jill next time I play Radiant Dawn.