Why are bases > growths?

[Carlton Banks]

First of all, I'm not sure if this is the first time this question has been asked or not, but in the past I've always played any FE game casually. But the more I play, the more I learn about and concern myself with fancy things like bases and growths and whatnot. Thus, my question to you is:

Why are base stats favored more than growths?

[Nicolas]

You need good bases to get any level up.

[Espinosa]

Main reason:

- most of the games can be completed too fast for growth-reliant characters to catch up (not only Nino catching up to Pent, but also, say, Alan and Lance catching up to Marcus and then Percival)

Some others:

- immediate application of units is pretty important, because the game is played when it's played not when it has ended (so 20/20 stats would matter very late in the game, and if we don't slow down 20/20 is never happening anyway)

- bases aren't going anywhere while growths may kick in differently each time you play and thus cannot be relied on

- newcomers only look at growths to figure out a unit's worth and we had a counterculture to that thinking years back and still like to underestimate the value of growths

- 0% growth runs

[dondon151]

because i have a big mouth

[Kinumi]

Good bases make it more difficult for a unit to get RNG-screwed.

[Dunal]

Because in reality growths are only as useful/important as the enemy growth, or whether lategame has any weight over earlier parts of the game (or are noteworthy in general).

Interestingly, aside from some exceptions (FE12?), enemies can't even keep up with low growth units so long as their bases are sufficient (Like Dieck).

That, or because stat advantages are either:

A) Come so late on a 'growth' unit that by the time they surpass a 'base' unit, the general usefulness over the whole playthrough is at favor to the 'base' unit... by far.

B) Nobody cares that the 'growth' unit will likely have +2 stats over the 'base' unit in the long-term when they won't differ in usage at all because of that, or barely.

I mean look at Pent and Nino. Pent at endgame is a perfectly functionable unit. Nino can be a slightly better version of him at that point. But the bottom line is: Who cares? I mean think about it, aside from being able to look at the stat screen at be at awe of the shiny numbers, what exactly does it achieve?

Granted, FE lategames are very likely too easy for it to matter, and that's part of the problem. Overkill-ness is often frowned upon and it's easy to achieve, but not necessary at all. A unit with 74028 MT can kill X unit. A unit with 30 MT can also kill X unit. In the end, does it matter?

[Tables]

The short answer is, on average a 5% growth means it takes 20 levels to get 1 point, and 40 levels to get 2 points, in that stat. 20 levels is typically about half of a game. So that tends to work out that 1 point of a base stat roughly equals 5% in it's growth.

BUT the higher your bases, the more you can do immediately, which means the more EXP you can earn early, and the more value you have immediately. Couple that with earlygame typically being tougher than lategame, and that people often judge units in the context of LTC where you definitely DON'T get all those levels, and you don't have time to train up units, and suddenly it's clear that bases matter a whole lot more.

[Florete]

- newcomers only look at growths to figure out a unit's worth and we had a counterculture to that thinking years back and still like to underestimate the value of growths

This really isn't true anymore. The people who would do this refer to averages all the time. It also would make discussing Awakening rather difficult since growths are very important there.

But yeah, a unit who can perform well off bases will always be able to perform well, and that's better than a unit who may or may not perform well. That's why Jagens are so highly valued.

[riariadne]

Bases have a more immediate effect. Growths are still a factor, but if a unit's bases are bad it's more difficult to use growths. Plus, if a unit that relies on growths is unlucky, it makes them much more difficult to use, while a unit with good bases and poor growths can be expected to perform well for a certain amount of time with not much variation.

[Elieson]

a shorter than short answer:

A Strong Start makes it easier to fit into a pre built team

[Nobody]

I'd say it actually depends of the game. No one try to claim base stats are more important than growths in a game like awakening.

[Colonel M]

Stronger bases usually, in turn, will help a unit leap ahead of other growth units.

There is truth that growth units will eventually exceed base units in terms of strengh; however, characters with strong bases still (usually) have decent growths. There are exceptions, but considering how many games can be cleared in jaw-dropping times with little RNG-abuse, the contributions of growth units look more bleak than base units.

Exceptions do exist.

In FE3 B2 and FE12, Arran has a very limited lifespan. While he makes great contributions very early in the game, he eventually will wear out due to his bases not being exceptionally higher (if at all) in comparison to his team as well as lacking the EXP and growths to keep him going. FE6 Marcus and Zealot also fit this nicely.

FE5 hands you Evayle, who has great bases for when she joins your group. Unfortunately, she has a very limited amount of time to contribute and, when brought back into the team, is practically dead-weight.

FE12 and FE13 also have some minor exceptions. Units such as My Unit / Avatar in both games have mediocre base stats, but due to the harder enemy composition as well as their EXP / growths being above average in comparison to most characters, there is a potentially higher cost of a unit such as Fredrick obtaining a larger chunk of experience. Compare this to Marcus, where the base stats of your allies and growths don't have to be very exceptional for the enemies that exist in FE7 HM (mostly because a lot of FE7 enemies aren't really threatening - they practiced quantity over quality barring rare instances).

I mean when you think about it base units still are growth units - their growths are just usually lower to compensate for their higher bases (or perks available to them). Despite Fredrick having far from stellar growths, his base stats pretty much make him clutch in Lunatic and a hefty contributor in Hard Mode - mainly because few units can do what he does. And his growths are decent enough with Pair Up to keep him going if the player really wanted to (probably not on Lunatic).

Growth units with sub-par base stats suffer from needing forced contribution instead of, shall we say, entitled contribution for their resources. If a unit is ORKOing an enemy and can survive what's thrown at him earlier in the game, the only true sacrifice made is probably the CEXP that could've been given to the growth unit. However, if the growth unit is performing only slightly better or at par with the base stat unit later in the game but performs underwhelmingly in the early game, a cost that is greater than the cost produced by the base stat unit taking the experience exists.

Honestly most of it really hinges back to how efficient you really want to be at the game and how much time / effort you're willing to spend on a unit. Other factors exist such as Movement (and Con / Str / weapon wt in earlier games), but in most cases base stat units will always reign superior to growth units because:

1) Most base stat units can still improve with EXP due to having growths

2) Growth units have to "catch up" to base stat units

3) The possible cost created by the growth unit is likely higher than the base stat unit

Furthermore, another thing that wasn't mentioned is that base stat units usually have another reason for a low cost - they can contribute what is necessary in a positive light and end their potential scrubbiness by being benched - thus more than likely not hurting the team.

It's tl;dr I know. I like to ramble.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Colonel M

[Knight]

It's also somewhat dependent on difficulty I think. On low difficulties where most characters can be viable off the start, growths can be more important, since bases aren't long term investments (although in low difficulties you can get by with all sorts of characters.) On higher difficulties, you usually need a good unit right at the moment, not a potentially good unit in 3-4 chapters.

[Tables]

I'd say it actually depends of the game. No one try to claim base stats are more important than growths in a game like awakening.

This is true. But Awakening has it's own share of misvaluing things. In early games, newbies were overvaluing growths and undervaluing bases. In Awakening, people overvalue caps, and undervalue bases and growths. Even during no grind runs people still seem to refer to stat caps more than bases/growths I've found, which is frankly pretty crazy.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Tables

[Nobody]

In Awakening, people overvalue caps, and undervalue bases and growths. Even during no grind runs people still seem to refer to stat caps more than bases/growths I've found, which is frankly pretty crazy.

Yes, that definitely makes no sense, since on a no-grind run no one is going to reach their caps, with maybe one or two exceptions. Awakening (the main game, not the post game) is IMO, the fire emblem game where caps are the least important.

But TBH in find some High-base characters to be a bit overestimated. For example, Percival might have better stats than Allance, but he's not around for most of the game, including the most difficult parts. Still I've seen many people saying he's better than Allance (after he joins, he IS better, but Allan/Lance contribute more for the overall game). The same thing can be said about Pent and Erk, except Pent has the staffs rank going for him and the fact that Erk is not that good.

Well, the thing about growth units is that they're far more dependent on joining time than base units. Put Seth at any point of SS and he would still be great. Someone like Nino, on the other hand, is considered mediocre because she is underleveled, but if she was around in the beginning of the game she would probably be considered top tier.

Edited September 10, 2013 by Nobody

[Chiki]

Growths > bases in LTC runs, but maybe not in normal efficiency.

[Refa]

Main reason:

- most of the games can be completed too fast for growth-reliant characters to catch up (not only Nino catching up to Pent, but also, say, Alan and Lance catching up to Marcus and then Percival)

I don't know if comparing Alan and Lance to Perceival is a particularly good way to prove your point. I mean look at this.

Level it takes to reach Perceival's HM base stats

Alan HP-20/14 Str- 20/7 Skl- 20/7 Spd- 20/9 Lck- 20/12 Def- 20/10 Res- -6RES at 20/20

Lance HP- 20/17 Str- 20/15 Skl- 20/5 Spd- 20/2 Lck- 20/20 Def- 20/17 Res- -4RES at 20/20

20/20 stat comparisons

Alan -3.7HP +. 75Str +1.15Skl 0Spd +. 45Lck -. 82Def -7.57Res

Lance -6.6HP -2.05Str +5.05Skl 0Spd -2.45Lck -2.72Def -5.67Res

And it's not like their growth totals are that much better. Alan's is at 290, Lance's is at 280, and Perceival's at 215. That's like, 1 extra stat per level if they get lucky. Even Nino beats Pent at higher levels in stats, but Alan and Lance are perpetually worse than Perceival, being grade A chumps and all that.

EDIT

But TBH in find some High-base characters to be a bit overestimated. For example, Percival might have better stats than Allance, but he's not around for most of the game, including the most difficult parts. Still I've seen many people saying he's better than Allance (after he joins, he IS better, but Allan/Lance contribute more for the overall game). The same thing can be said about Pent and Erk, except Pent has the staffs rank going for him and the fact that Erk is not that good.

Haha, Allan/Lance don't contribute more than Perceival. You basically need them to get pretty blessed if you want them to contribute on HM, and it they're screwed, you're SOL. I find the opposite is true for Pent/Erk, as a promoted Sage Erk is one of the most useful units for the desert (not sure about Canas, but he definetely beats Lucius there), and he can reach A staves in time for Warp.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Refa

[Nobody]

Haha, Allan/Lance don't contribute more than Perceival. You basically need them to get pretty blessed if you want them to contribute on HM, and it they're screwed, you're SOL. I find the opposite is true for Pent/Erk, as a promoted Sage Erk is one of the most useful units for the desert (not sure about Canas, but he definetely beats Lucius there), and he can reach A staves in time for Warp.

I don't know, every time I've played FE6 on hard mode, Allen and Lance were pretty useful, especially on chapters like 7 or 8, considering ferrying Roy to the throne on this game is pretty essential. With swords they were also pretty great for the western isles. You also have to consider that by the time you get percival, you already have Miledy, probably promoted, who can do everything he does, but better. I'm not saying Percival is bad, by no means, he's actually one of the better pre promotes in FE and TOP 5 in FE6, just that I think it would be harder to play FE6 without both Allen and Lance than without him

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[Quintessence]

Imagine a unit with pathetic bases and awesome growths faced against enemies that he/she can't LITERALLY damage, no exp gain, no lv ups, no growth. Said unit can't be a healer.

I admit this example is extremist and won't ever happen because then, why does such unit even exist? But yeah, you know what I mean

[Nobody]

I admit this example is extremist and won't ever happen because then, why does such unit even exist?

Wendy and Sophia exist

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[shadykid]

Imagine a unit with pathetic bases and awesome growths faced against enemies that he/she can't LITERALLY damage, no exp gain, no lv ups, no growth. Said unit can't be a healer.

I admit this example is extremist and won't ever happen because then, why does such unit even exist? But yeah, you know what I mean

Donnel's not far from that on Lunatic+

[Quintessence]

Wendy and Sophia exist

uhh... Sophia grows, Wendy chips, they get exp, at least.

who's Donnel

[Diddy Kong]

Cause you can't change bases with luck.

[Nobody]

who's Donnel

Some useless villager guy, who can only do one thing right: Impregnate a knight woman that is more manly than him.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Nobody

[Baldrick]

Imagine a unit with pathetic bases and awesome growths faced against enemies that he/she can't LITERALLY damage, no exp gain, no lv ups, no growth. Said unit can't be a healer.

100 dodges gets you a level