Semi-Precious Mafia - Mafia wins!

[charlie_]

So is it a SerenesForest thing where people have empty unvotes and don't decisively move forward? I'm not used to this kind of thing, usually we almost always have our vote on someone, everyone always has reads.

It's still considered scummy here too.

[charlie_]

Also as a last thought before going to sleep, we have a lot less time than I thought we did.

[Bard]

It's still considered scummy here too.

...

Also as a last thought before going to sleep, we have a lot less time than I thought we did.

SB panicmongering omg scum!1!1!!!1!!

Nah but seriously, I'm kind of thrown off by the number of people unvoting but not revoting. You shouldn't need to re-read everyone constantly to try and get a read out of them, unless you're like scum and you are bad at fabricating reasons lol. (Seriously that's how I see you, go make me think otherwise because I haven't enough votes to get all of you! )

(Sophia is like :notamused: so.)

[MRDRHAWK]

##Lynch: Bear

FINE I VOTED AGAIN

[BBM]

Seriously Kirsche?

Kirby: I said I had a small townread on Scorri for being active early, since she tries to coast as scum early on a lot of the time off the excuse that she used to die early as town a lot, and therefore doesn't like putting in effort on D1.

SFMM3: I said that I didn't think you were the type of person to make the type of really shitty post you did when you were drunk.

Masquerade: I pushed Darth Vader a little bit off meta because I thought he was Rapier (and this was anon too)

Poly- why Bearclaw?

[MRDRHAWK]

As said before, I'm most confident that Bear's scum compared to everyone else.

[BBM]

Also, Scorri, whether or not there was stuff for you to comment on at the beginning, there definitely was stuff for Bearclaw to comment on when he came in and just said he wouldn't come back for another 24 hours. Saying that there wasn't anything for him to talk about is wrong.

Bard- your main reason for voting Scorri was overdefensiveness, unless I'm mistaken, not her not talking about people.

[BBM]

You said earlier that Bearclaw just seems to be the most obvious scum, not why that was so.

[Refa]

I feel like Refa's Polydeuces vote is attacking him for shit that's bad play over stuff that's inherently scummy, and it's just attacking a really easy thing.

I disagree. I can't see why even an incompetent townie would vote someone for looking too townie, and his attempts to discredit Wayward's arguments seem rather scummy as well. Am I saying that he is definitely scum? No, my reads certainly aren't that precise. I just feel that out of all of the players, he is the one who is acting the scummiest.

and I feel like Refa's attacking him for saying something stupid (and he's done similar stuff in pretty much all his games too.)

nowai, I am a master of competency, I never say something stupid ever

But honestly I agree with what you're saying (well, the bolded part), however I'm reading more than just noob!town (read above to see why).

Also me tunnelling scorri with 2 posts on her is funny. My vote on you wasn't for nothing.

At the time, the majority of your reads was on scorri, with a sentence or two on everybody else (including me, who you were, and are voting for). Perhaps tunneling isn't the right word, since it's only natural to focus more attention on the people you're suspicious of; regardless, my point was that besides your case on scorri, none of your reads were particularly more detailed than mine and thus it was hypocritical of you to call me out on the lack of reads on my part.

I still think I want you to explain, you put more effort into describing your sporting schedule than you did giving any justification for your vote. SB did it first? I don't know why that would make a difference, unless you were making a conscious effort to try and not look scummy. I'm not liking DA BEAR.

I'm not sure what explanation you're expecting from him, considering it was an RVS vote. Also I don't get why saying SB did it first would make him look less scummy, since sheeping is a pretty scummy thing to do. I'm not liking him either, moreso due to his gigantic absences, but all I'm seeing is dumb town who took the RVS thing too far.

However. Refa only provided a vote when pressured by SB, he seemed quite content to just sit there with nullreads until someone asked. I smell some funky chicken there!

Hey Shin, you don't even have a non RVS vote out. Also, you've barely posted any reads besides on bearclaw and now, me. Care to explain what they are?

I guess now you look scummy by your reasoning, huh?

All of my chicken is funky fresh, thank you very much

Bear does seem like the most obvious of the potential scum right now, but part of me wonders if he's just playing that to try and lower the scum's guard so that they can get away with more thinking they'll be good until the Night phase.

What's so obvious about bearclaw? An RVS vote? And I don't get your justification for how he could be town.

I'm still curious as to what's going on with Scorri and what happened to the wagon there, but that's not something to be dealt with just yet, methinks. Let Scorri clear up any doubts for/against him so that we can move on with it.

Fair enough. I know I'm guilty of answering for scorri on at least one occasion, and I would like to see her post some reads, if nothing else.

PEdit: Nevermind, she posted reads. Ignore that part!

Don't like #82 from Marth. The only read is on Polydeuces for being dumb (but not scummy, like I said before, there's a difference) and then assorted null reads and stating frustration with DA BEAR. I would advocate a vig on Bear though.

What you think is dumb!town, others might find scummy. Noone is voting him because they think he is dumb!town.

Would not advocate a vig on DA BEAR, being inactive for a long period of time is frustrating, but nothing worth killing him over. If he doesn't post anything substantial by Day 2, I probably would agree with you on that point.

I linked a post first thing in this, which contains my concerns with Poly's vote from before, and a question I'd like answered. Scorri's moved on to reading others and commenting on them, so my reason for voting her has evaporated, like Mega Man Legends 3. Nothing else I see is really interesting enough to pursue right now.

Don't remind me. :(

[Shin]

Wayward's sudden dropping of the "Evil Shin" theory strikes me as bad. I've gone from your most confident scumread to not even worth a proper mention? Most of that list was pretty empty. I'm not terribly interested in null reads or maybe's.

SB, Da Colonel strikes me as pretty neutral right now. His attack on Poly is pretty intense, although Poly's jumping on Wayward, who I still deem as newb!town, doesn't seem terribly justified. So I guess his vote makes kinda sense, although some other reads would be nice.

I'd like some actual stuff from BBM, there's a lot of stuff he doesn't like, and a lot of meta-theorycraft, but there isn't anything too terrible.

[BBM]

Don't really have many reads. I still don't like Scorri, and something about Bard is irking me. I didn't like how quickly he dropped Scorri and even if Poly has played in games before, I dislike how he didn't vote WW earlier on grounds of him being new but was fine with voting Poly, when the latter isn't exactly showing great experience.

Not sure about Kirsche. His vote on me is based on incorrect stuff, but doesn't really seem scummy to me. I'd like him to give his own thoughts about Poly though. Bard is sort of right in that Kirsche never really said what he himself thinks of Poly, despite admonishing me for my handwaving.

Shin, who's your strongest scumread? Your vote is still on Bear from RVS, unless I'm mistaken. If that vote's become serious, why?

[Bluedoom]

Polyderps' recent vote is bad because its like he's not using his brain anymore. His bearclaw vote is terribad because in #98 he says he can't do anything to pressure bearclaw since he's away, but later on after being called out for being voteless, he votes da bear anyway.

BBM's scorri suspicion is scummy too because earlier he says that she didn't comment on stuff she could comment on, but she did, and she clarified herself later on. Not sure why you haven't elaborated on your scorri suspicion now unless its a gut read, which would be hard to get anything from at this stage when we're out of RVS. Also don't like how you misread my opinion on scorri as an opinion on the wagon, and I don't like how you haven't responded to my reply/forgotten about me. Just makes it look like you wanted to find me scummy since I disagreed with your opinion.

Points duly noted are Bard voting scorri over WW and Shin still sustaining his RVS vote, however.

kirsche's vote on BBM is illogical, yeah, but the logic in it is still not as bad as Polyderps' .Doesn't look as bad as Poly but his point about poly being dumb scum is good.

@SB: Sorry about #82. but Poly was the only scumread I could get from the little content I had available to read at that time. Having one scumread isn't really scummy.

Refa calling out SB for tunneling on Scorri when he got pressured by him is bad, but his defence for the Polydeuces vote is sound so I'm neutral over here.

[BBM]

If you say you don't find Scorri particularly scummy, that's an indirect comment about the validity of the wagon. It might not be attacking the people on the wagon, but it is saying that you disagree with it. Are you really going to attack me over saying that I didn't like what you said about the Scorri wagon instead of saying that I didn't like what you said about Scorri? And this is only the second time you're asking me this question. Attacking me for forgetting to respond to your question once is pretty bad.

Also, my initial Scorri vote was more for reasons of overdefensiveness than for lack of opinions, and that I didn't like her reaction. Nor do I really like her Kirsche vote. She says that there's nothing scummy about using meta after expressing a dislike of it in past games, but that's untrue. Had the basis for Kirsche's vote been true (and if I were unbiased), I would have considered it to be an okay vote. As an analogy, someone suddenly voting someone for a meta reason after saying meta is bad in previous games would be sort of like Scorri voting someone for not making an RVS vote, when she doesn't like RVS much either. Playstyles can change, but not that drastically that quickly, and especially not for people who've played enough games to be somewhat set in their playing style.

[Refa]

Points duly noted are Bard voting scorri over WW and Shin still sustaining his RVS vote, however.

What's wrong with Bard's vote on scorri?

Refa calling out SB for tunneling on Scorri when he got pressured by him is bad, but his defence for the Polydeuces vote is sound so I'm neutral over here.

I don't like how both you and Shin mentioned that I got pressured by SB when my post was a response to BBM.

Anyways, at the moment, here are my thoughts regarding the players;

Leaning Town

kirsche- Hasn't done anything yet that would make me suspicious of him.

BBM- Good job scumhunting, a lot of his arguments make sense, you know the drill.

Refa- nobias

Bard- Read kirsche, BBM.

Wayward Winds- While he did perhaps look a little too deep into RVS, and not all of his arguments were logically sound (OMGUS isn't a good reason to vote for people, which is basically what I did, even if it was in jest), I don't see any scum intent in that. In addition, he's been contributing a lot recently, so yeah. Probably townie.

Null Read

scorri- I think her reaction at the beginning was a null tell, and while I don't like her reasoning behind her recent vote on BBM, I'm not sure if it's because she's necessarily scum

Marth- I'm not liking some of his recent arguments, and while I agree with his Polydeuces vote (because most of his reasoning is the same as mine), he hasn't really added anything new to the table in terms of scum hunting. I'm not getting any scum vibes off of him because of this, but know that I'm not really reading him as town at the moment.

Wallcrab- His laziness is rather irksome, but none of the reasons for voting him strike me as well, logically sound, and he hasn't done anything particularly scummy; on the flipside, he hasn't done anything particularly towny either, so null for him.

Leaning Scum

Shin- Several of his posts seem rather waffly on content, as he doesn't take a definite stance one way or the other on well, pretty much everyone. In addition, he hasn't really announced any suspicions on anyone except a weak case on bearclaw.

SB- Spends less time coming up with scum reads and more time justifying his positions on scorri and now me. I wouldn't support a lynch on him atm, but...it's just something to watch out for.

Polydeuces- Do I even need to say anything else about him at this point?

[Zkirsche]

Oh man I liked the word seriously yesterday.

Leaning Town

kirsche- Hasn't done anything yet that would make me suspicious of him.

I'm not really complaining but what. Surely nothing suspicious = null? Don't understand your logic here, but your scum reads are good.

A townread on someone D1 is not a be all end all

I'm not voting him for having a townread, I'm voting him for having a town read for no reason.

you claiming that he's just handwaving things is a generalization in and of itself.

It's not a generalization, he IS just ignoring the fact that he has no reason to think of Poly as town.

o you then disagree with the conclusion that Poly is Townie?

I disagree with the concept of making any sort of conclusion with the logic BBM presented. Bad play is a null tell and BBM jumping to a conclusion because of it feels off. It feels more than just lazy logic on his part FMPOV.

The answer to your next question is "yes, I disagree": Poly was a null read at that post. Your case is good though so I'll be interested in his response (if it ever comes).

chainsaw defence

Dunno what this is because I'm a scr00b.

Even if I agree with the conclusions he made that doesn't mean I can't find problems with how he made them.

I'll reread more later because ~tired~. BBM's response is good, Refa is good, Scorri is unchanged. "Oh I'm sorry I was defensive but here's my opinion on Bear" is not really a good response. Actually there was like 1 person voting Bear at the time so "blowing it out of proportion" is wrong. Looks like padding to make it seem like she's saying more than she has.

##Unvote

##Vote: Scorri

Scorri > BBM > Poly atm.

[Refa]

I'm not really complaining but what. Surely nothing suspicious = null? Don't understand your logic here, but your scum reads are good.

It's more that I was too lazy to come up with a description. Anyways, my logic is that for my null reads I can see the people being either scum or townie; whereas with my town reads, I'm more sure that they're town. When I say nothing suspicious, it's more of a short hand for "not reading any scum intent in posts, logics are sound, etc etc." I mean, I don't have much to go off with Day 1 so my leaning town reads are probably going to be less reliable than they are later on when there associative reads, flips, scans, etc., but thems the breaks.

[charlie_]

Don't really understand Refa's criticism of me, especially since I haven't had much to talk about on the scorri front in a while (due to very few posts.)

7 pages is pretty quick so I might reread in a few hours.

[charlie_]

6, even better.

[Bard]

Bard- your main reason for voting Scorri was overdefensiveness, unless I'm mistaken, not her not talking about people.

Yes, and I clearly outlined I took issue with the overdefensiveness because it was all she did. I'll point to http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43416&page=3#entry2657461'>this post and http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=43416&page=4#entry2657776'>this post, with key lines such as

which displays a bigger concern with one's own appearance than active scumhunting at the moment.

It should be fairly clear my main concern is that scorri wasn't scumhunting and focusing on defending herself over doing actually something of value.

I didn't like how quickly he dropped Scorri and even if Poly has played in games before, I dislike how he didn't vote WW earlier on grounds of him being new but was fine with voting Poly, when the latter isn't exactly showing great experience.

At some point we're going to have to accept that Bardiche hasn't played many games here, and where Wayward directly stated this was his first Mafia game in his sign-up, Polydeuces hasn't. Or are you trying to say, "Hey Bard, you're only allowed to vote people with extensive Mafia experience!" because I did not want to press hard on a newbie? I thought I was being considerate but from your attitude it looks like I'm now supposed to make sure my vote target has extensive Mafia experience.

So BBM, was your point there that you don't think my values match up, or was the point to tell me I can only vote people with extensive Mafia experience?

[Bluedoom]

If you say you don't find Scorri particularly scummy, that's an indirect comment about the validity of the wagon. It might not be attacking the people on the wagon, but it is saying that you disagree with it. Are you really going to attack me over saying that I didn't like what you said about the Scorri wagon instead of saying that I didn't like what you said about Scorri? And this is only the second time you're asking me this question. Attacking me for forgetting to respond to your question once is pretty bad.

Also, my initial Scorri vote was more for reasons of overdefensiveness than for lack of opinions, and that I didn't like her reaction. Nor do I really like her Kirsche vote. She says that there's nothing scummy about using meta after expressing a dislike of it in past games, but that's untrue. Had the basis for Kirsche's vote been true (and if I were unbiased), I would have considered it to be an okay vote. As an analogy, someone suddenly voting someone for a meta reason after saying meta is bad in previous games would be sort of like Scorri voting someone for not making an RVS vote, when she doesn't like RVS much either. Playstyles can change, but not that drastically that quickly, and especially not for people who've played enough games to be somewhat set in their playing style.

This might be an issue of semantics, but so far on SF I've seen no one confuse an opinion on a wagonee with an opinion on the wagon. The former was what I did, the latter is when you attack/support the people on the wagon. W/e.

I'm attacking you for it because it looked like you picked up a scumread and dropped it later for no reason. That seemed fishy.

If you didn't like Scorri mainly for her overdefensiveness, then:

It doesn't take more than one game to distinguish between a person who would be willing to do outrageously dumb things on purpose to WIFOM and make the town think "too stupid to be scum" and a person who isn't.

I don't like Marth's comments about the Scorri wagon. It's not that she didn't lay down a vote. She didn't have to lay down a vote, but there was non-RVS stuff happening that she could have commented on and she didn't. And why is being defensive a null tell? Yeah, townies can be defensive, but you're not really giving any explanation for this.

Bold: Why was that a counter to my opinion?

Italics:Does not say as much about your opinion of Scorri as the the one in bold.

Remember that prior to this you didn't elaborate on why you agreed with the scorri wagon.

The part about her kirsche vote is good though.

[Bluedoom]

@Refa: He spent a little more time talking about WW than scorri when he voted scorri, although he did clarify that he wanted to give the newbie a chance when BBM asked him about that. Its isn't horribad or anything though.

Also you're right about the part where I say your response was on pressure by SB. Sorry 'bout that, I saw SB vote you, then scrolled down a little bit and saw your wall post so I made that connection. Don't think SB tunneled on scorri though, he had few posts as is.

[Shin]

My vote on DA BEAR has stayed, mostly because I never got my reasons. Apparently FOOTBALL YEAH, is more important! An RVS vote doesn't necessarily have to change if you still suspect the person you voted for, and considering I changed my vote during RVS, I think there's some justification in applying a little pressure. There's also the fact you asked that at like 4am, where I was kinda in the process of going to bed.

Poly's vote strikes me as weak. He never gave any reasoning on DA BEAR even though he was asked. As much as I think DA BEAR leans scum, Poly's vote has no justification behind it. In fact, the only things he mentions about DA BEAR are that "he's numbah one on my scum list!". I also don't like how BBM tries to defend him after he votes Wayward. "Poly is so crunk! He lives on the edge and only he'd be crazy enough to vote like that as town!"

##Unvote

##Vote: Poly

I'll want to hear more from DA BEAR

[Shin]

Stoopid post button!

I'll want to hear more from DA BEAR later, but for now there's no use trying to race with a tranquilisered horse!

[Refa]

Stoopid post button!

I'll want to hear more from DA BEAR later, but for now there's no use trying to race with a tranquilisered horse!

Yeah, the horse will win every time clearly.

[Wayward Winds]

Right, time for my next input.

The aggresive defence...

@Shin. I have stated twice now, that my thoughts on the RVS were a load of codswallop/tripe/festering rubbish/find your own synonym. I even bolded it to make sure it got noticed. So I've been ignoring everything up to and including my 'monster' because it was clearly worth nothing. I could interpret that observation as deliberately ignoring what I've been saying. Luckily for you, I've got bigger targets at the moment.

...the continuing offence...[/i]

I know that Da Bear is absent, but I'm not voting for him on those grounds. What has me concerned is that, despite actively posting after things started to happen, he didn't really do anything with those posts. Nothing to make it look like he was trying to help Town, no offering opinions on other happenings, nothing. And the side stepping Shin's question, why? 'Would have unvoted' was a bit of a non-answer, and considering he elaborated on the sports thing in another post, he clearly wasn't that constrained by time limits. So, either he's being passive in the extreme (Scorri has provided more debate[/i]), or he's up to something. My vote stays on him for now.

Then... Polydeuces. I don't mind the loss of a vote, but that U-turn was just a bit sudden. Almost like I'd caught him out. I find that behaviour somewhat suspect, but I've only got one vote. It may change to him later, it depends on what comes up later.

...and the 'What the heck is Wayward Winds doing???

Uh, Refa? I appreciate the '