Semi-Precious Mafia - Mafia wins!

[Bard]

Not many people just stop being defensive once they've been accused of it, even townies. And what reasoning does Scorri have for it to be flimsy? She's not pushing anyone.

I wasn't saying scorri has flimsy reasoning?

[Refa]

Refa- if SB is complaining about you not really having any reads, that's a read in and of itself, and even if you discount it, there is literally an infinite difference between 1 read and 0 reads, if you look at it as a ratio.

If his complaining about me qualifies as a read, then surely I had just as many than he did, considering I was defending Wayward and scorri above.

Regardless, this is just fluff, the point was that SB did not have a significant amount of reads over me at the time of that post.

While Bard and Poly have somewhat different reasons for their WW suspicions, why are you so suspicious of one for their WW suspicions and not at all suspicious of the other?

Bard is suspicious because WW's logic is inconsistent, which I can agree with. Poly's vote in particular was based on "well he could be extremely pro town, but I'm not taking the chances" which is backwards logic for a townie; a townie would think "There's a good chance he's scum. He may be town, but I'm more convinced he's scum." That reasoning of Poly's is something I cannot see a townie saying. In addition, while I concede that not all votes early on are made with the intent of lynching, it still signifies a greater degree of suspicion and while Bard only has a scumread on WW, Polydeuce's reasons for said "greater degree of suspicion" are rather shaky at best and kind of scummy at worst.

[Da Bear]

I've never met anyone who plays both basketball and football. scum excuse y/y?

The place I use doesn't have the seasons intersect so I do both.

[Bard]

Also expect nothing from me for 24+ hours

So basically "don't expect anything out of me for the entire Day 1", making you unreadable due to lack of content. Are you for real?

[Refa]

Suddenly his avatar is starting to make a lot of sense!

[Bard]

For some reason I thought Day 1 was 48 hours but that's not true. Either way that's still a significant part of Day 1 that will be missing any kind of input from you and at best, it's simply irresponsibly signing up for a game you have no time playing.

At worst, it's scum behaviour because you're dodging providing content, when most scumhunting is done based on the quality of content first and foremost, and volume/frequency of it a secondary concern.

I consider this legit rude towards the rest of the players. 12 hours or so is fine, 24 hours (or more) is inexcusable.

[Bluedoom]

##Unvote ##Vote: Polydeuces

-Poly has played mafia before but not in SF(except Fakeclaim), so its not like he doesn't have an idea of what he's doing. That vote on WW was BS imo. Whaddya mean not let him slide? Whaddya want him to do about it, eh?

-Scorri seems defensive, yeah, but its a null tell, especially the part of not putting down a vote since there isn't much to go about during RVS.

-DA BEAR just showed the finger to us guys. Vig should prolly shoot him for being a dickhead.

-Refa makes a good point about BBM trying to meta someone who doesn't have an existent meta(one game doesn't count dude). Agreed.

[BBM]

It doesn't take more than one game to distinguish between a person who would be willing to do outrageously dumb things on purpose to WIFOM and make the town think "too stupid to be scum" and a person who isn't.

I don't like Marth's comments about the Scorri wagon. It's not that she didn't lay down a vote. She didn't have to lay down a vote, but there was non-RVS stuff happening that she could have commented on and she didn't. And why is being defensive a null tell? Yeah, townies can be defensive, but you're not really giving any explanation for this.

[eclipse]

VOTALS (how the hell did I lose them?!)

Bearclaw (1): Shin

Polydeuces (2): Refa, Marth

Refa (1): SB

scorri (3): BBM, kirsche, Bard

Shin (1): Bearclaw

Wayward Winds (2): Polydeuces

Not voting (2): scorri, Wayward Winds

You got a little under 47.5 hours to figure out who gets the rope. If I screwed up, lemme know.

[Bluedoom]

Guess we differ on opinion then.

I didn't comment on scorri's wagon, I commented on scorri herself. There's a difference.

What "Stuff to comment on?" she already commented on Wayward's wall post, which was like, the only noticeable thing in the thread at that time. Shit like shin's wagon was there but its not like people came up with paragraphs to write about it so yeah. ( I still think da bear's hop on to the wagon was pointless and looks like scum wasting time but apparently I'm the only one who thinks so. Oh and maybe Shin thinks so too. Too bad he'll be gone for another day now >_>).

Scorri being defensive at this point of the game is a null tell because its ED1 and there won't be much to talk about. The most common accusation in SF!Mafia is "You haven't done much and have been inactive." and its understandable to be defensive about that in ED1 when you're busy. Hell I faced that shit in Drafters mafia and was town so I'm biased. Its weird that she missed the Shin wagon and she should clarify as to why she missed that or why she felt it wasn't something to comment on, but its not something I'd wagon her for.

[Refa]

Perhaps she didn't find it as worthy of comment as you did. I certainly didn't think much of it besides standard RVS procedure.

[charlie_]

I feel like Refa's Polydeuces vote is attacking him for shit that's bad play over stuff that's inherently scummy, and it's just attacking a really easy thing. I don't think town or scum want to be attacking their townreads, so it's kind of a null thing, and I feel like Refa's attacking him for saying something stupid (and he's done similar stuff in pretty much all his games too.) Don't like Marth for this either. Also me tunnelling scorri with 2 posts on her is funny. My vote on you wasn't for nothing.

Bear should stop spending his posts explaining why he's away and use them to scumhunt. If he does that, I'm not too fussed about him going away for a while.

Gotta go.

[Wayward Winds]

Okay, I'd better offer some input into my past actions.

1) Nope, didn't understand RVS, tried to use (flawed) logic a little too early. That last post (when I unvoted Shin but didn't vote anyone else) was essentially me deciding Shin must have been joking and that everything I'd theorised in 'the monster' was a load of codswallop. Therefore, I could be lynching Town on a misunderstanding. Better to withdraw the vote and wait for more concrete evidence than to leave it there, potentially forget about it, and potentially bump forward a lynch that I didn't really have reason to commit to. (Don't worry, I'll revote in a couple of hours, now that there's been actual serious discussion to sift through... even if I did trigger a good part of it myself).

2) ...I think I'd better drop the wall of text analysis and focus on smaller chunks. Because I was essentially doing a player at a time, I tended not to think back to previous thoughts within the post (absence being the one that comes to mind quickest) and promptly contradicted myself. Being inconsistent is never a good way to render a name squeaky clean (which in mafia would actually be a bad thing), and compiling a post over 20/30 minutes is a sure way for the mind to wander and be inconsistent.

3) I'm also not going to mention absence again. I'll admit, that was a bad choice, considering the above inconsistency. Too much looking at other threads there... Someone could be lying low to minimise the possibility of accidentally spurting something incriminating, but it's more likely to be real life interference (not everyone uses their phone to check up on things while, say, they're on the bus).

...At least my foolishness appears to have triggered the switch from water pistols to live ammunition. I do not (apparently) see jokes for what they are. Anyway, I'm going to ignore everything in the first couple of pages, and have another sift around.

[Shin]

Shin wants me to explain my vote.

I was planning on unvoting after 5~ minutes but sb did it first.

I still think I want you to explain, you put more effort into describing your sporting schedule than you did giving any justification for your vote. SB did it first? I don't know why that would make a difference, unless you were making a conscious effort to try and not look scummy. I'm not liking DA BEAR.

The Colonel's vote on Poly has some semblance of logic behind, I agree that Poly's reading too hard into what's probably newb!town. However. Refa only provided a vote when pressured by SB, he seemed quite content to just sit there with nullreads until someone asked. I smell some funky chicken there!

[Zkirsche]

I don't get why people are criticising Wayward for making a big post. Tryhard =/= forced and while I obviously agree that he was putting in too much effort for the start of the game, I'm not reading his reads as forced and there's nothing really scummy about them.

BBM using meta is weird, I don't think he even uses meta or even liked it (judging from how annoyed he was getting at it in other games). It seems like a flimsy reason to think someone's town. Sure, being illogical is not scummy, but it definitely isn't townie so you're essentially writing him off with meta (a concept I know you disagree with) that, as refa rightly pointed out, he got after just one game with the guy, a game where he was lynched for his lack of posts.

It doesn't take more than one game to distinguish between a person who would be willing to do outrageously dumb things on purpose to WIFOM and make the town think "too stupid to be scum" and a person who isn't.

How about he is just dumb!scum? Why is that not an option here, he might just be scum trying to make a case he thinks is good, but is actually bad. I really don't like this defence, so

##Unvote

##Vote: BBM

[BBM]

I use meta all the time. When I got annoyed at meta usage in AM/PM, I was scum trying to save my ass because the meta read was on me. So saying it's a concept you know I disagree with is just flat out incorrect. You can go through my last five town games and probably find meta usage in all of them.

I suppose the point about him possibly being dumb scum is a good one, but I still don't feel that he's scum.

I don't like Bearclaw's prod-dodging, but I don't get the suspicion about the Shin vote in RVS. He probably shouldn't have done it but it's not like he has experience with people getting lynched accidentally because of mayors on a turbowagon. Nor do I get Shin's point that him saying that SB unvoted before he could doesn't make a difference.

In a rush; more in the evening.

[Wayward Winds]

Okay, let's see how much flak I attract for this one. I'm ignoring everything in the first couple of pages, because apparently RVS disagrees with me.

So, after spending a couple of hours setting up a spreadsheet, I’ve got a couple of suspects. They are;

Polydeuces; Yes, you might think this one’s obvious, but consider... he has a very one track mind hasn’t he? I’m not arguing the points that he’s making, but he could spend some time rooting around for other potential scum as well. After all, if I cop it, then regardless of whether I turn out to be Scum or Town, you’ll still have to probe other players. Why not start that now? In fact, Poly, that’s a warning. Do a bit of scum hunting elsewhere (you don’t have to change your opinion on me), or I’m shifting my vote to you.

Da Bear; I can’t help but find his sidestep of Shin’s question suspect. And he never did unvote Shin, despite claiming he would have. In fact, looking at the current votes, we seem to have a private little feud going on between the two of them. Otherwise, there’s precious little meaningful content out of him. No scum hunting, no taking sides on arguments, nada. At least Shin’s been providing comments and helping drive the discussion forward.

...Time to apply some pressure.

##Cook: Da Bear

And comments on a couple of others...

BBM; the use of meta on a player with too few previous games to see much long term behaviour. Uh, suspect, but it’s the only thing I’m clocking as such for him. So far, anyway. He’s been reasonable the rest of the time, no particularly illogical moves.

Refa; While he has indeed been quiet, he does seem to have been doing a bit of probing. More than some people, although admittedly not as much as he could. I’m of the opinion he’s just being careful... wait, that doesn’t stick in Mafia, does it?

[Zkirsche]

I use meta all the time. When I got annoyed at meta usage in AM/PM, I was scum trying to save my ass because the meta read was on me. So saying it's a concept you know I disagree with is just flat out incorrect. You can go through my last five town games and probably find meta usage in all of them.

I suppose the point about him possibly being dumb scum is a good one, but I still don't feel that he's scum.

I seriously cannot recall you using meta. You use scumspec and WIFOM, but I can't recall meta. Maybe the former two are overshadowing the latter, but I think that "all the time" is an exaggeration. Can you give examples because I seriously don't have time to.

That's one of the worst instances of handwaving in this thread IMO.

[Refa]

To be fair, I believe he used meta to defend um...someone in Kirby Mafia, and he was town there. Will reply to other posts later on, kinda busy atm.

[MRDRHAWK]

Wayward does bring up valid points, and not just on me.

Bear does seem like the most obvious of the potential scum right now, but part of me wonders if he's just playing that to try and lower the scum's guard so that they can get away with more thinking they'll be good until the Night phase.

Refa's probably the most obvious town right now. But I'm curious as to know what Wayward means by "just being careful" and if it's worth looking into at all on either front.

Meta reads are actually not a dumb idea based off past experience, but then again, it's kind of tricky to apply with a small field and on somebody with a low sample size (that you've seen). That all being said, not sure why BBM is taking flak for it.

I'm still curious as to what's going on with Scorri and what happened to the wagon there, but that's not something to be dealt with just yet, methinks. Let Scorri clear up any doubts for/against him so that we can move on with it.

Oh yeah, ##Unvote because WW seems pretty legit. I probably was just reading too much into his RVS reads.

[charlie_]

Don't like #82 from Marth. The only read is on Polydeuces for being dumb (but not scummy, like I said before, there's a difference) and then assorted null reads and stating frustration with DA BEAR. I would advocate a vig on Bear though.

Shin, what's your read on Refa? I can't really tell from your post exactly.

Don't like how kirsche just picked one thing out about BBM and kind of just throws aside the rest of the game. Would like to see his reads on other players.

Polydeuces last post is bad. Like, scummy bad this time. He pretty much dismisses his own thought process via wifom and is very hesitant to actually say something for certain, or without casting some sort of doubt on it.

Would like Refa to respond to my criticisms when he's around.

[scorri]

First off, I'm a she.

Second off, I didn't consider the blitz wagon worth commenting on because it was pretty clearly a joke wagon that just went a little too far. While there may be scum on it, there's just as likely to be town on it so there's nothing really that can be gathered from it. I wasn't attempting to be defensive but guess it came across that way. That's unfortunate but.

As for Bear, I think that most people are blowing it out of proportion. People get busy and would you rather he just not have said anything and just disappear for two days? I get that he could have done a bit more, but most of what had happened was just RVS anyways, so there wasn't much to comment on.

For now

##Vote:Kirsche

Your vote on BBM was bad and you should feel bad

No but really, BBM does use meta before and even if he doesn't, a change in play does not scum make, especially if that behavior hasn't been seen in scum!BBM before. A townread on someone D1 is not a be all end all and you claiming that he's just handwaving things is a generalization in and of itself.

[MRDRHAWK]

Polydeuces last post is bad. Like, scummy bad this time. He pretty much dismisses his own thought process via wifom and is very hesitant to actually say something for certain, or without casting some sort of doubt on it.

Well, with my initial feelings on WW dispelled, and Bear obviously not around enough to put more pressure on, I've lost all my full reads. I've got some good notions on people so far (I do believe Refa's very obviously town, as are you and BBM), but no full-blown reads anymore. Working on that, though.

[Bard]

Poly, I asked a question in this post. I'd be really happy if you could answer me.

Then I look at kirsche here and while it has the makings of a genuine effort, I'm not convinced. Primarily, what are your own thoughts on Poly? You offer a solution that it could be dumb!scum instead of Town as BBM suggests through use of meta, do you then disagree with the conclusion that Poly is Townie? It seems like dishonest if you attack BBM over his logic for considering Poly Town if you don't disagree with his assessment, after all. Rather than a legit case against BBM, it reads like a chainsaw defence where you attack BBM's credibility ("he doesn't even like meta!") rather than the conclusions he's reaching.

Earlier I said I theorise scum have difficulty suspecting people because I like to think people have an inherent dislike of lying. So when I see Poly's post here, you should expect me to come with the following suggestion about it:

It's scummy.

There's a lot of lines there, but they're not reaching conclusions. It's waffles of the "could be, could be not" magnitude.

"Bear is probably Scum, or he could be Town pulling massive plays". - Right, but he could be y or z or x as well! This is waffly and cheerleads the case on one hand and on the other hand theorises the case is wrong. Make up your mind and pick a side.

"Using meta isn't bad, but then again it's tricky to use in this situation." - And then despite asserting that it's tricky to use in the situation that BBM uses it, you claim to have "no idea" why BBM gets flak for it. I think it'd be understandable to give him flak for asserting meta when your sample size of their playstyle is one game. That I find his assertion agreeable is a wholly different matter, though.

"I want to know about the scorri wagon but it's probably not a good time to look at it." - Any time you are curious about a specific thing is often the best time to pursue it.

In summary, I just think Poly is flip-flopping around there and hasn't provided any useful kind of information or solid stance on any of the particular matters. It's like politics with porn, on the one hand they reject it and with the other... Well, I won't finish that.

So is it a SerenesForest thing where people have empty unvotes and don't decisively move forward? I'm not used to this kind of thing, usually we almost always have our vote on someone, everyone always has reads.

##Unvote

##Vote: Poly

I linked a post first thing in this, which contains my concerns with Poly's vote from before, and a question I'd like answered. Scorri's moved on to reading others and commenting on them, so my reason for voting her has evaporated, like Mega Man Legends 3. Nothing else I see is really interesting enough to pursue right now.

[Bard]

If the above isn't clear, by the way, I would like kirsche to offer some arguments on how BBM is scummy and why his use of meta in this particular instance is scummy; BBM has refuted your claim and it's time you provide the evidence to back up your claims. I consider chainsaw defending extremely scummy as it doesn't look at people's actions as being scummy or not, but it takes a point that's easy to attack and pushes it in hopes of looking like you're trying.

If you really are trying, finding evidence to back up your claims and invalidate BBM's refutes should be easy.