Snooping Around Mafia - Game Over

[Eurykins]

Mmmm, sounds like a good idea. I'll keep that in mind, Huck. ^^

As for your questions:

1. Concerning BBM's question: I intially took BBM's 84 post as a means of getting me to sort of stir up my own thoughts/interpretations of what was happening, and to see where my thoughts were going (given my status as the newbie player). On the other hand, though his logic with 95 made a decent amount of sense, it's interesting to see him asking of my opinion of Prim regarding suspecting scum or not, while saying that a scum would mostlikely not do the action at hand given the consequences (or at least, no smart sniper would do so).

2. At this point, the amount of mistrust I feel between BBM and Prims is quite prominent- if they were both townies, then I could easily see Prims continuing to focus on BBM for the duration in which both were in the game (friendly fire = distractions of sorts). And the possibility of one dying as result of responding/gunning after the other, and then finding out that the one killed was a townie- I guess, in my mind, it'd call into question the validity of the calls made previously. And if that ends up causing more commotion/mistrust, and the second living party IS townie, then we may end up killing the other thinking that it's mafia, resulting in two townies dying VS. possibly picking off one mafia member at the cost of one townie. If... that sort of makes sense? Finding it a little hard to word things, sorry.

[BBM]

I'm not gunning for Prims. He's basically confirmed town.

[Baldrick]

For what purpose? You don't find either person who toyed with the idea of prims being sniper scummy for it.

If she was willing to co-operate, she is hypothetically willing to provide reads in the future.

I disagree. A wagon hop should be judged on the reasons for finding the target scummy, not why earlier town reads no longer apply.

OK, the timing made it look like you ignored/answered her vaguely. Then my concern is as above.

I'm sympathetic to her thought process (though I do find it scummy) and she hasn't done enough to warrant an unvote. Problem?

[BBM]

I didn't find either person who toyed with Prims being Sniper scummy for that reason specifically because they're both new and I saw it more as not having the experience to see the logic behind him being town, regardless of what their alignment might be.

At this point the wagon hop thing is just you disagreeing with me about what is scummy and what isn't. Let's say I'm scum and Refa is town. I've stated somewhat of a townread on Refa. If a wagon on him was to start (let's assume the reasons for it don't suck or me switching to him is scummy either way), I still have to compare the reasons for finding him scum to the ones I've outlined for him being town. For my vote switch to him to not look super scummy, I have to show how the reasons for him being scum outweigh those previous things I stated about him being town. Now if I'd just said that I had somewhat of a townread on Refa but didn't say why at all, I can just ascribe whatever shitty reason to my earlier townread on him I want to, and it becomes much easier to show how the reasons for him being scum outweigh my previous reasons for finding him town, and then the wagon hop doesn't look nearly as bad.

Generally if you're sympathetic to someone, you can understand possible town intent behind what they're doing and are less likely to vote them for it even if you can also find scum intent there. I don't understand why her thought process would produce sympathy if you think she's scum.

[BBM]

How can you tell if someone is willing to co-operate if they're not giving reads in the present? Saying that they're biding their time before giving a read isn't a promise that they will actually give a read at any point.

[Baldrick]

Pedit, @Eury

1. I think it's not the best question to get your thoughts on since there isn't much useful information you hadn't already provided in 80.

2. I can see the logic, though I think the interactions would have to get a lot more desperate before we would conclude one or the other must be mafia. Agree that prims' read is strong and he should talk about other people as well.

##unvote

##vote:BBM

[BBM]

I still don't Baldrick's suspicion against me at all.

[Baldrick]

Pedit again.

Ok, that is just a difference in opinion. i would judge the reason for switching against the reason for your original vote.

Sympathy is null because it's purely to do with how I feel as opposed to eury's intent.

If they start being unhelpful when they have a read it sticks out more than if they were never helpful.

[Baldrick]

BBM case

Bad reaction to Shinori kill

Useless discussion re: primsniper

Case against poly prejudiced by earlier behaviour

Misrep his Eury read

[Prims]

BBM, why is poly scummier than everybody else in the game

[Grace]

Votals coming when I'm out of class, about 15 minutes

[BBM]

Vote switches have to be judged against both the original vote and the original read on the person now being voted.

Can't really say anything about the reaction to Shinori.

My discussion regarding Prims being Sniper wasn't useless. Not everything has to derive a scumread. I was trying to correct Poly and Eury's logic.

I don't understand the third point. What do you mean by earlier behaviour? Can you clarify that? And what does being prejudiced even mean?

Already responded to the fact that I didn't misrep Poly's read on Eury. I don't understand what "If they start being unhelpful when they have a read it sticks out more than if they were never helpful. " means either.

Another thing- Poly talking about claiming is a reaction to the pressure and vote against him. You can't say that his reaction to the vote against him was good and then say that him talking about claiming is scummy.

Also, Baldrick's initial reason for voting Eury was that she was being too cautious and analytic, and that this was more reminiscent of newbscum than newbtown. Yet she hasn't stopped being cautious and analytic. The only scumread she's offered was, as she herself admitted, not very strong, and she didn't even vote SB for it. So what's the reason for the switch to me? It can't be that I was no longer at L-2, because in that case he would have voted for me in one of the two posts he made in between SB's unvote and his vote. The reasons he just outlined in his summary all applied at that point as well, so it's not like I became scummier in the meantime either.

@Prims- idk. It's a combination of me being lazy, not really having a better option for a while, and Poly not really posting afterwards, though I'm considering switching to Baldrick. I don't really like his case against me (though bias so whatever). But I don't see the reasons for switching to me, and I don't like the Poly case because it's contradictory and because calling him maybe his second strongest scumread when I'm his strongest is suspicious. Yeah you can be suspicious of two wagons at once, but not unless he thinks there is a possibility I'm bussing Poly atm. His attitude towards Eury is also really weird and seems way too nice to be directed at someone you think is scum.

[BBM]

Also, I want to see how Poly's logic will change, if any, now that if his buddy is SB or Baldrick, they've had the opportunity to give him advice on what to do. His logic yesterday was just really bad and all over the place and he was taking both sides of everything except Eury.

[Grace]

Votals:

BBM (2): PMP, Huck Finn

Polydeuces (2): BBM, SB

Voteless Scum (3): Refa, Eurykins, Polydeuces

4 to hammer. There are 45 hours remaining in the phase.

[Refa]

But what if we end up killing BBM and end up mislynching a townie? I understand the train of logic earlier, but [maybe lack of experience in general in playing this game/not knowing people from prior games?] I can't help but give him the benefit of the doubt.

I mean, hell, we already lost a townie. Just seems pretty rash to me.

I don't like this defense because it does nothing except state that we're not 100% sure BBM is scum. Considering that applies to everyone except Prims (well, most likely anyways), it just seems like fluff more than anything else.

I'll admit. It crossed my mind. But, owing to little to no experience in this game, I'm also feeling weird about how much of my thoughts I should actually throw out concerning the topic. But oh well. Why not?

Withholding none role related information does not benefit town in the long run. You really should explain your reads, if you have any.

PEdit: OK, and so you did. I will comment;

Prims: Honestly, I've been unsure of you since Posts #60 and #68 occurred. The claim against Refa early on was based on what I perceived to be more of a joking self-vote than anything, and seeing you jump on the first thing seen seems... odd. And then you jumped on BBM for lack of contributions to the progress of the game, but at the time you posted that... quite frankly, the majority of us could've easily fallen under that category. Shinori posted twice prior to his death- neither of which REALLY helped/contributed anything, I myself was in my corner trying to see how things would go at the start of a Mafia game, and we had people who hadn't posted at all. Posts #74 and #76 also seemed to push us to jump on the "Let's lynch BBM and be done with the day phase!" bandwagon, and that just seemed extremely careless/rushed given the shot/kill on Shinori. After all, fewer people + kill on townie + possible mislynch on another townie (Which would also end the day phase early if it'd been done when you told us to, limiting the amount of posting to be done before the night phase happened) can easily lead to the Mafia gaining the obvious upper hand and much faster victory if done correctly.

**To clarify: I'm having one hell of a time trying to pinpoint Prims and BBM atm: Both are strong players in every regard, and I'm having the feeling that knocking one out without the other going down as well is dangerous. Depending on who ends up being a townie or mafia (or, worst case both are townie/mafia), taking one side over the other... seems risky. No matter how you look at it.

I'm honestly not sure why you have a null read on Prims. Are you the real Deputy (in which case you should CC and/or shoot him)?

Poly: I'm leaning townie on Poly, but I can't say it as confidently as I can with Refa (which is why he's in my 'unsure' category). I appreciate his means of standing up for me in terms of me being a newbie player and not saying clear-cut reads/opinions/etc., but seeing him willing to weather as much as he is getting in light of him speaking up for me pulls up the question: Is he a fellow townie attempting to be a supportive player and helping me genuinely? Or is he a possible Mafia that's merely attempting to secure a good buddy-buddy system with someone who he's confident in being a townie? It's hard for me to tell, but I'd prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt here.

Surely scum would know everybody who is townie, so I must ask why would he choose to buddy with you over other people?

...SB?: This category seemed lonely, so figured someone could use this spot. But aside from that- short single post so I've seen thus far. Wasn't overly descriptive/in-depth, and seemed to just throw out a vote on the one who's already hosting the most votes thus far. And not sure if his last comment was directed as his IRL situation (not being able to be online long) or otherwise in-game, in the sense of us running out of time for the lynch. I figure the former is much more likely, but who knows?

I don't like your scum read on SB, it seems rather forced. Scum can post a lot too, so lack of posts is not an indicator of scuminess. However, lack of content in posts is, which is why I'm finding you scummy despite a comparatively large amount of posts.

But anyways, I'm just avoiding casting any hard looks/calls of scum/no-scum currently, as I find it to be unwise to host strong biases against someone that may otherwise be proven wrong later (but perhaps overlooking something/making an error on my part would lead to be gunning off of the strong biase that I'd intially have).

This strikes me as unnecessarily overdefensive. While both town and scum can exhibit this behavior, I feel that this is leaning scum because it comes across as waffling on a lack of reads rather than defending what reads she does have, even if they're not particularly strong at the given point in time.

Refa should state an opinion on me though. IIRC he was around when Prims voted me and didn't really say much about it.

I wanted to confirm whether or not Prims shot Shinori before doing anything else.

Your defense early on was rather forced and I agree with Prims that there was scum intent in that. People have mentioned that you're asking a lot of questions, but I'm not sure if that's necessarily because you're scum, as I've seen you do that a lot as town as well; so that particular point is doing anything for me. So at the moment, I'm reading you as null.

His case on poly was logical, but delving into minutiae and dissecting his tow read on Eury, and exclaims that poly is taciturn and never explains his reads without pushing, but he never got a chance to be helpful without prodding since he got prodded after one reaction post without scumreads. Seems like trying to rally opinion against him.

To be fair, Polydeuces hasn't explained his reads well until forced too in past games, so I understand BBM's reasoning in prodding him. I'm not sure why BBM still finds Polydeuces still suspicious though, can you explain (@BBM)?

At the moment, I'm trying to decide whether Eury or Poly is my deputy scum read. Eury seems less new town, since being cautious and analytical is a better move for scum than using bad logic and throwing out reads,

I don't like this logic. It pays for town to be cautious when making their posts, lest the other townies think they're scum. Now, I agree that scum can be cautious as well, so it's important to see if there's scum intent; with regards to Eury, I can agree with you on that front. I don't even get what you mean by being analytical, surely that is a pro town move considering how helpful reads are?

Explaining null reads is just waffling, explaining town reads is equally pointless because we don't care about reaching a consensus on who is town.

I agree that town reads are less important to explain. However, considering a null read can easily shift into a scum read later on, I feel that it's important to explain them early on so that a vote later doesn't appear to have come from nowhere (plus, it saves time when building a case on a scum read later on).

Don't like BBM for this question, when he seemed to have pretty much figured out that Prims was confirmed town, why did you ask it again? "i don't feel like getting voted for that" comment doesn't improve my opinion of him either, it looks really self-conscious to me. Also I dislike when he says that Eury should've known Prims' meta if she read a couple of games in the past.

While I don't disagree with what you're saying, I'm not really seeing any of the scum intent in that; noone is going to find Eury suspicious for not knowing Prims' meta.

This post by Poly really bugs me, and not just because of the claiming overreaction. His first point seems to imply that he knows that Eury is newbtown, since he says that it's better that he's hanging back a bit when we would want newbscum to talk so that they would slip up. I feel like I'm wording this horribly but eh. He also looks like he's trying REALLY HARD to change the subject in #110 after some pressure by BBM.

Unvote

##Vote: Polydeuces

The bolded part bothers me as well (because only scum would know who town is), but I'm confused on your second point. Can you clarify?

BBM case

1. Bad reaction to Shinori kill

2. Useless discussion re: primsniper

3. Case against poly prejudiced by earlier behaviour

4. Misrep his Eury read

(numbered your points so that they would be easier to respond too)

I can definitely agree with your first point. Honestly, for the second one, I wasn't sure why exactly Prims was confirmed town until BBM explained it, so it wasn't useless in that regard. Not sure what you meant by 3 and 4, can you clarify?

At the moment, this is how I am ranking players;

Eurykins > Polydeuces > BBM > Baldrick > SB > Refa = Prims

For reasons explained above, Eury's arguments are bothering me and a persistent lack of commitment despite repeated pressuring leads me to believe that she's scum.

##Vote: Eurykins

[BBM]

Basically I don't like Poly's reasons for treating Eury as a townread. They seem contradictory. And his logic wrt to both me and Prims is all over the place and goes into a bunch of levels of WIFOM like appearing super scummy on purpose so as to make people think he's too scummy to be scum or something. That's not exactly scummy by itself but it feels odd that he's so conflicted about both me and Prims and yet so sure about Eury being town as to defend her several times.

Refa makes a good point about Baldrick. I was considering previously just the discrepancy in finding Eury scummy for being cautious and analytic and then unvoting her later while those things still held true, but he reminded me that the foundation for Baldrick's vote (that being cautious and analytic is scummy) is flawed itself.

However, Refa, you didn't really say anything directly about Poly in that last post (just indirectly, saying that my reasons for prodding him made sense). Why is he so high up in that list?

[Baldrick]

@bbm

Poly not explaining his reads in an earlier game (or whatever 86 was about) means you apparently decided he was going to not do it this time before he had any reads worth explaining. Still think the town read logic is a stretch, given refa's content.

If someone is talkative at first, then clams up when asked for reads at a point they should have them, that is extremely suspicious.

I have already clarified what I find good about Poly's reaction and what I find bad.

Just like you corrected eury's prims logic the first post you made after she said it? I had other things on my mind. At the very least, she said enough that I can conclude that if she's quiet later, it's not due to being lost. I don't expect her style to change after two posts.

I'm not going to clear someone because they're being pushed by someone I think is scum.

@refa

What i meant by the bolded was her behaviour was more likely to be the strategy of newbscum than poly's was. In theory, analytical is good. But to that point, in practice it meant she was saying "I can't say anything about this until I analyse it more".

When i can be bothered, I write null reads in my role pm but it does make sense to put them in thread if the reason they're not scum reads may later become irrelevant.

I think #2 only needed the one post to clarify, the rest is filler.

3 is as above.

4. In short, BBM said poly claimed Eury had reads and so contradicted himself, but he didn't say that. Top of page 6.

Tbc,

[BBM]

Did we really just get a mid-phase kill?

gat damn.

So far the new guy seems very town, as does Refa. BBM's null right now, and I don't recall seeing much of anything from the other three.

This is Poly's first post. He gives townreads on Eury and Refa here without explaining them. Saying I told him to give reasons for his reads before he even gave any reads is incorrect.

You "clarified" what you found good about his reaction and what you didn't, except you said the same thing was both good and bad. Him being jumpy in response to my vote is his reaction to the vote. You can't say "he reacted well to the vote in his counterargument but then didn't as well since he was jumpy". You can't separate it like that.

Except you voted Eury for her style. If you don't expect her to change it after two posts, then why did you vote for her in the first place? What was the motive in doing so? You say you've ascertained enough that you can now conclude she should have reads later on in the game, but you're forgetting that this is a short game capable of ending, like, today. And her being talkative just means that she has time to devote to thinking about the game and posting in the thread. It doesn't mean she can't be lost in terms of actually finding reads and deciding who's scummy, at any point in the game- it's her first game after all. The logic that you're espousing here seems like an easy way to be able to jump to a vote to her at any point on grounds of "hey she's talkative but she doesn't have reads, lynch lynch lynch".

Also, I did, in fact, try to correct Eury almost as soon as she started talking about Prims possibly being scum. She started expressing some suspicion about him in #78/80. #81 was a question to Prims, but #82/84 were towards her suspicion of Prims (don't you know that he pushes turbolynches a lot/do you think he's lying about being Deputy). It's all within like twenty minutes of her posting, in any case, whereas there was a lot more time between SB unvoting me and you voting me.

I didn't say you should clear someone based on them being pushed by someone you find scum, but in a game where there's the possibility of us losing after only one mislynch, you can't really afford to not think about whether or not your top two reads make sense as scumbuddies.

Maybe my discussion regarding #2 could have taken less posts. But that doesn't mean any of it was filler- it just means that I said over two or three one-line posts what I could have said in one three-line post. That just makes me Manix- it's not a scumtell.

fuck it tired of waiting around for Poly while he watches Fairy Tail or some other shit anime ##Unvote, ##Vote: Baldrick

I'll provide a summary if necessary in the evening.

[Baldrick]

I don't value town reads.

But I already did.

I voted her for using her style as a shield. I'm certain she understands giving reads and deciding who is scummy, and you know as well as I do that wagon-hop logic wouldn't hold water unless we see a dramatic drop in the detail of her posts.

I wasn't on for much of that time and the pace at which I read and produce posts is slower.

Are you arguing your interactions with poly don't make sense if you're both scum? I disagree because wifom. i consider your scum meta just as, if not more likely to bus a buddy than defend them, to make associative reads from the flip less clear-cut.

I'm not concerned about the volume of the filler so much as it encouraging others to think about something irrelevant.

[charlie_]

Making a post now, but just had a thought. Should the last Vanilla Townie claim? If they're uncced we have another clear, and if they are then we have a 1v1.

[Prims]

Stop fucking posting walls of text on Day 1 in an 8 player game.

If we have an unlynched VT claim at the end of the day, then scum instawins following ML by sniping me + killing the townie. I wouldn't recommend it.

BBM still cares more about not getting lynched than finding scum. Out of all his recent posts, there are maybe 3 that progress his scumhunting? I also can't tell what he thinks about Eury which is weird given that she's been high-profile.

Eury is horribly scummy for writing walls of text with no concrete opinions whatsoever. Think she's being windbaggy for the sake of being windbaggy. I'd lynch her if not BBM.

Refa and Baldrick are obvtown. Polydeuces is basically OK.

[Prims]

##Unvote

##Vote; Eurykins

Pretty sure I'd be dead by now if scum didn't want BBM lynched. #WIFOMLife

[Eurykins]

....Okay then. I'll try to keep things short n' sweet, sorry. Was just trying to cover whatever I felt like I needed to. :x

@Refa: (Would quote your responses, but that'd enlarge the reply as a whole, so these are directed to post #140)

1. That was my logic of worst case scenario- in terms of accidentally nailing two townies in one day. (Knowing my luck though, yeah, it probably did qualify as 'fluff', since it technically didn't help progress the thread content any.)

2. Mkay.

3. I'm not the deputy, so that's out of the question. Prims, I can now see (after re-reading a lot of the posts in the thread n' whatnot) in a more townish light, but maybe it is/was his... how to word this correctly- very upfront, with a drabble of arrogancem, almost aggressive playing/typing style that I didn't care for or trust (no offense meant, just trying to piece my thoughts together)? But maybe that's just my mistake in not isolating general posting styles/personalities from actual in-game roles/thoughts. It's a little hard to explain, sorry.

4. I can't say. But, for one, I can see myself as probably being the easiest person to win over, in terms of trust or otherwise lack of experience? That's just what I'm assuming.

5. As I explained in the next post after that (post #123), it was more of a joking aspect than not. And as explained, he was actually under the 'unsure/neutral', not 'possibly scum' reads.

6. ...This is where I'm going to feel weird in asking specifically, "What is waffling?" (Sorry, not completely sure of all of the terminology of Mafia.) And my response was just reiterating how I was feeling/thinking.

@Prims: I apologize if my posting style isn't as direct/helpful as it should be? I'll do what I can to keep things more concise and precise with my thoughts in future posts.

[Prims]

waf·fle ² Informal

v. waf·fled, waf·fling, waf·fles

v.intr.

To speak or write evasively.

v.tr.

To speak, write, or act evasively about.

n.

Evasive or vague speech or writing.

Basically you post a lot of "hmmm it could be this, but it could also be this". This kind of waffling is totally useless to other people in mafia, you should say which you think is more likely to be the case and explain why it's more likely (unless you're completely undecided, in which case it's generally not worth bringing up unless somebody asks)

Also I still can't tell who you think is scum.

[Eurykins]

Oh, I see. Understood. Thank you for that.