Fire Emblem with the worst balance?

[Irysa]

Niime's A Rank in Staff is the only reason she's better than Sofiya.

what

Sophia is hard to train and doesnt even have particularly good growth for an "Est" (i mean, 30% spd with 4 base speed AND being slowed down by the lightest dark tome? WTF) , Niime has 21 mag and 18 res at base. Give her a body ring/speedwing/both and she can obliterate stuff with nosferatu very easily, whilst Sophia is still being fed kills to get to promotion <_<

Edited October 17, 2013 by Irysa

[Shadow Mir]

I would say Sofiya VS Lughis a better comparison. Niime's A Rank in Staff is the only reason she's better than Sofiya.

Sofiya comes at a worst level, far later, and is in average, worse than him, except in Res, and maybe Mag.

I would also prefer Nino VS Erk,or Pent VS Erk. Nino have awesome base stats for her level, and awesome stast, but join far too late, whereas Erk have more occasion to be usefull, but have a lot of posssibility to fail completely. Pent is the most reliable units, having an A Staff Rank (Which Erk could have too, I guess, but It'll takes a lot more time...°, and in Average better stats everywhere, except Spd.

About FE4, there is another pint that haven't been talked about yet : Pursuit. Some times ago, I played Tables' Random Reclass, in which Arden had Pursuit, and I realized how much better it made him. It actually allowed him to kill ennemies once he reached them.

Honnestly, outside of LTC, Movement is the least unbalanced aspect of FE4. Levin and Shanan don't need to be mounted to be absolutely amazing.

And Aloishe are not really groundbreakingly awesome.

It's first Holy Weapons, then Pursuit which decides a unit's value.

Though, despite being horribly unbalanced, everyone is actually perfectly usable, due to how easy this game is.

How is Sophia vs Lugh a better comparison? And saying that Niime's staff rank is the only thing making her better than Sophia is dead wrong, especially considering how arduous training Sophia is.

WRT FE4, I'd say that with the huge maps, movement is a big deal - even though Levin and Shanan are good foot units, the fact they're foot units in FE4 is a big deal in and of itself; after all, even with how broken holy weapons are, in the end, it means jack shit if you can't keep up.

WRT Nino: I'd say another issue Nino has is that her one outstanding stat is mostly nullified by her Con.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[PKL]

The worst thing is the console-style canto on top of their huge movement advantage :/

[Refa]

FE4 has the least broken flyers out of any FE game 10/10.

[Shadow Mir]

The worst thing is the console-style canto on top of their huge movement advantage :/

That too. That just makes foot units even more useless in comparison than they already are.

[PKL]

To be fair though, at least there are almost no foot units in the game lol

[Shadow Mir]

I didn't get Knoll and his late recruitment for a level one shaman. I put it below 13, however, for having more balance issues.

Actually, Knoll starts at level 10.

[PKL]

It could be worse...his name could be Sophia.

[General Banzai]

insta promote knoll into summoner for phantom ai manip used to be something people got bonkers excited over, I think it's more-or-less fallen out of favor by now

point is, at least knoll can do something

which is more than a lot of characters in a lot of other games can say

Actually in a game with free grind, isn't the game inherently more balanced? You can pump up underleveled units (and since exp curve gets to dicks around lv 10 unpromoted until you unlock lagdou, it favors underleveled units) to at least some semblance of on par. In fact, I'd argue that Amelia/Ewan etc were balanced AROUND the expectation of the player grinding them up if they wanted to use them. They didn't put Valni and skirms in the game just to say "now let's pretend these don't exist when we balance."

Furthermore, I'd like to mention that I'm pretty sure much of the imbalance in these games is intentional. I don't think the guys at IS really thought Nino was on par qualitywise with Pent or even Erk. They put her in because they know that at least some players get satisfaction out of watching a weak character become strong through the player's own work and diligence. The designers don't expect the player to have sheet of growth rates on hand when they start playing for the first time. The trial and error of figuring out who is good and who is bad is part of the fun of playing the game (at least, again, for some people). Not to mention, if an FE game were perfectly balanced, and who you used was simply an arbitrary decision, the game wouldn't be fun at all, it would actually be removing elements of strategy.

[Shadow Mir]

insta promote knoll into summoner for phantom ai manip used to be something people got bonkers excited over, I think it's more-or-less fallen out of favor by now

point is, at least knoll can do something

which is more than a lot of characters in a lot of other games can say

Actually in a game with free grind, isn't the game inherently more balanced? You can pump up underleveled units (and since exp curve gets to dicks around lv 10 unpromoted until you unlock lagdou, it favors underleveled units) to at least some semblance of on par. In fact, I'd argue that Amelia/Ewan etc were balanced AROUND the expectation of the player grinding them up if they wanted to use them. They didn't put Valni and skirms in the game just to say "now let's pretend these don't exist when we balance."

Furthermore, I'd like to mention that I'm pretty sure much of the imbalance in these games is intentional. I don't think the guys at IS really thought Nino was on par qualitywise with Pent or even Erk. They put her in because they know that at least some players get satisfaction out of watching a weak character become strong through the player's own work and diligence. The designers don't expect the player to have sheet of growth rates on hand when they start playing for the first time. The trial and error of figuring out who is good and who is bad is part of the fun of playing the game (at least, again, for some people). Not to mention, if an FE game were perfectly balanced, and who you used was simply an arbitrary decision, the game wouldn't be fun at all, it would actually be removing elements of strategy.

Hmm.

Also, on an unrelated side note, I was once looking through a thread (the thread in question was this one), and was wondering, who's more hated, Wendy or Corple?

Edited October 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[ZemZem]

I'd say Wendy because Forseti!Corple is fun.

[Refa]

Corple's better than Wendy in so many ways it's not even funny.

As in, he can like help facilitate a) making the game easier for you if you don't care about turns or b) shaving turns.

EDIT Also FE5!Corple also blows Wendy out of the water despite getting OHKOed by everything and having 0 for all non HP/CON stats because he gives you a free Warp staff.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Refa

[Integrity]

Furthermore, I'd like to mention that I'm pretty sure much of the imbalance in these games is intentional.

I've been saying that for years. Anyone with a brain can see balance problems within the cast of any FE, so I figure IS just went for the absolutely illogical choice of making units they liked and letting imbalance fall where it did.

Doesn't excuse some really questionable things, but FE's never been a particularly balanced series and I don't think it was ever supposed to be.

[Gregosa]

Have to vote for FE4 as well for most of the reasons already mentioned. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the pursuit skill. Characters with good speed that can't double. Unheard of in other games.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Gregosa

[Shadow Mir]

Have to vote for FE4 as well for most of the reasons already mentioned. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the pursuit skill. Characters with good speed that can't double. Unheard of in other games.

Heh. I guess most others who voted FE4 for worst balance focused squarely on the mounts disproportionately being favored and holy weapons. But yes, Pursuit was yet another reason why it was unbalanced as all get out.

Edited October 18, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[arvilino]

Probably a toss up FE4, FE10, FE12 and FE6 they have the biggest discrepancies between units that are good and those that aren't in the entirety of the series. Depends whether unmounted mediocre units versus super mounts(FE4), units that would have been some of the worst regardless having the least available chapters(FE10) in comparison to some really good ones who get the lions share, half the cast getting one rounded on the hardest difficulties and dealing minimal damage(FE12) or characters ridiculously weak(Sofiya) who join at inappropriately late and have hit rates so low them even hitting enemies to gain EXP isn't a guarantee.(FE6) versus some of the better characters getting boosted on the harder difficulites

[Shadow Mir]

Probably a toss up FE4, FE10, FE12 and FE6 they have the biggest discrepancies between units that are good and those that aren't in the entirety of the series. Depends whether unmounted mediocre units versus super mounts(FE4), units that would have been some of the worst regardless having the least available chapters(FE10) in comparison to some really good ones who get the lions share, half the cast getting one rounded on the hardest difficulties and dealing minimal damage(FE12) or characters ridiculously weak(Sofiya) who join at inappropriately late and have hit rates so low them even hitting enemies to gain EXP isn't a guarantee.(FE6) versus some of the better characters getting boosted on the harder difficulites

It's not just that, particularly in FE4's case - the holy weapons drove another rift between units in terms of usefulness, as did Pursuit. The lack of weapon balance didn't help either (swords and wind magic were good due to being light, whereas axes and fire magic sucked because they were heavy).

[Tamanoir]

Have to vote for FE4 as well for most of the reasons already mentioned. I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the pursuit skill. Characters with good speed that can't double. Unheard of in other games.

B-But... I did mentioned Pursuit. I eve, said, it amde Arden slightly less worse

Abut Wendy VS Corple. Corple uses staff, which makes him immediately far more usefull than Wendy.

How is Sophia vs Lugh a better comparison? And saying that Niime's staff rank is the only thing making her better than Sophia is dead wrong, especially considering how arduous training Sophia is.

WRT FE4, I'd say that with the huge maps, movement is a big deal - even though Levin and Shanan are good foot units, the fact they're foot units in FE4 is a big deal in and of itself; after all, even with how broken holy weapons are, in the end, it means jack shit if you can't keep up.

WRT Nino: I'd say another issue Nino has is that her one outstanding stat is mostly nullified by her Con.

Niime is a Prepromote with A Staff Rank. Obviously, Niime will be better, even if Sophia had crazy good stats and growth (Or at least equal to Nino), and Niime had awfull stats (Her stats are honnestly pretty unimpressive, with HP and Def being Horrenous).

Lugh have a more similar role in the army (A Mage using Dark Magic).

what

Sophia is hard to train and doesnt even have particularly good growth for an "Est" (i mean, 30% spd with 4 base speed AND being slowed down by the lightest dark tome? WTF) , Niime has 21 mag and 18 res at base. Give her a body ring/speedwing/both and she can obliterate stuff with nosferatu very easily, whilst Sophia is still being fed kills to get to promotion <_<

25 HP, 5 def, 4 Con.

But OK, A Staff Rank, and Prepromote Status are what makes Niime netter. I was too focused on the Average stats. Still, nobody will deny that without her Staff Rank, she will be far less used.

I'm absolutely not trying to say that she's good. She's absolutely awfull.

Sophia is like Nino, without any of Nino's advantage. Nino have awesome base (for her level), great growths, and a chapter entirely made to have her to level (26x/28x). Sophia comes in a map that is already bad enough without having to take care of her, and is completely surpassed by a character coming 2 chapter before, at a better level, and who will always surpass her.

I may say Nino is worse the investment you put on her, butSophia is absolutely unsalvageable.

Just saying Niime isn't asamzing as people seems to think. She have some clear advantages, but she have nothing special.

Back to the topic. No mention of FE2, the game who mixed FE13 infinite level up with FE1's growth.

I like this game, but he is no doubt terribly unbalanced, only because it doesn't have Res Growth, which makes some units inherently better (See Mathilda > Clerbe)

Edited October 20, 2013 by shyteddie

[dondon151]

niime is like the reason why you can warpskip FE6 at all

[Irysa]

25 HP, 5 def, 4 Con.

But OK, A Staff Rank, and Prepromote Status are what makes Niime netter. I was too focused on the Average stats. Still, nobody will deny that without her Staff Rank, she will be far less used.

I'm absolutely not trying to say that she's good. She's absolutely awfull.

Sophia is like Nino, without any of Nino's advantage. Nino have awesome base (for her level), great growths, and a chapter entirely made to have her to level (26x/28x). Sophia comes in a map that is already bad enough without having to take care of her, and is completely surpassed by a character coming 2 chapter before, at a better level, and who will always surpass her.

I may say Nino is worse the investment you put on her, butSophia is absolutely unsalvageable.

Just saying Niime isn't asamzing as people seems to think. She have some clear advantages, but she have nothing special.

Actually the Dark Rank is important to Niime as well because she can get +5 mag for having Apocalypse as her weapon (since staves don't equip), which means her staff range gets increased even more. Also, her def and con suck but thats why I said you throw a body ring to her and let her nosferatank. I mean whole else are you putting it on? She'll basically go to max hp on every nosteratu counter because of her ridiculous mag and crappy enemy res, and 20 skill means she's not liable to miss. She won't get doubled by most enemies with the body ring either.

[Gregosa]

Heh. I guess most others who voted FE4 for worst balance focused squarely on the mounts disproportionately being favored and holy weapons. But yes, Pursuit was yet another reason why it was unbalanced as all get out.

The mount imbalance didn't really bother me as much as pursuit because there was usually a big lull period once you took care of a stack of enemies/rescued villages and lots of foot units eventually get mounted promotions. Plus the next batch of enemy reinforcements don't show up until you seize the castle so you could manipulate the system by positioning your units for the next batch of battles.

B-But... I did mentioned Pursuit. I eve, said, it amde Arden slightly less worse

Sorry for skipping you :(

MODEDIT: good morning don't doublepost

Edited October 21, 2013 by Integrity

[Shadow Mir]

Actually the Dark Rank is important to Niime as well because she can get +5 mag for having Apocalypse as her weapon (since staves don't equip), which means her staff range gets increased even more. Also, her def and con suck but thats why I said you throw a body ring to her and let her nosferatank. I mean whole else are you putting it on? She'll basically go to max hp on every nosteratu counter because of her ridiculous mag and crappy enemy res, and 20 skill means she's not liable to miss. She won't get doubled by most enemies with the body ring either.

I'd also throw a robe or two on her.

The mount imbalance didn't really bother me as much as pursuit because there was usually a big lull period once you took care of a stack of enemies/rescued villages and lots of foot units eventually get mounted promotions. Plus the next batch of enemy reinforcements don't show up until you seize the castle so you could manipulate the system by positioning your units for the next batch of battles.

But considering that mounts can move again after attacking (and the implications that has), as well as enemies in FE4 generally not being that strong... Even if foot soldiers could somehow keep up, they'd generally not have the chance to do much more than spectate.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[Jedi]

Hey Levant. Levin, Ayra, Aideen, Jamka, Dew, Briggid, Raquesis, Ardan, Tiltyu, Claude, Sylivia, Azel and their children can do plenty. Just ask the various players of FE4. You do realize mount rushmore isnt the only way people play the game right? Ever heard of Shins Dew soloing the Cross knights? My various fun times with Briggid soloing entire legions of 2 range foes? The various hilarious and amazing pairings auch as a forseti Patty who becomes blinding fast, those various sword twin videos showing their power? The stavers doing their thing? An Ardan raised Ced with capped Def? Julia soloing a whole batallion of wyverns?

This is very little of things me and other fe4 players have done. Why dont you actually try to have fun with your games?

[Refa]

You do realize mount rushmore isnt the only way people play the game right?

Pretty sure the only real way to play FE4 is with 0% growths.

[ZemZem]

Niime's actually really impressive. Her defenses may blow, yes, but her offensive stats are still great. And besides, like dondon mentioned, warpskip. Just give her an angelic robe and maybe a body ring. Perhaps a speedwings, too. Her base SPD is a bit iffy.

I like having Patty murder everything with a 50+ kill hero sword. But really, MKS's whining about FE4 and FE6 just make me appreciate them more.

Edited October 21, 2013 by Z the M