Choose You're Own Role Mafia - Game Over

[Elieson]

Bbm should I claim?

[BBM]

I think that you're the most likely town out of the people who haven't publicly claimed, so I wouldn't want you to claim unless we're sure that we're going to have everyone claim.

[Elieson]

Mmk.

I am going to sleep though and I just took nyquil, so ill pop back in the morning.

[eclipse]

Paperblade: fyhtji

Unless I see serious objections, I'm claiming when I wake up tomorrow. This game needs a serious kick in the ass.

[euklyd]

Okay I'm trying to develop more reads/more solid reads and it's just not happening no matter how much time I spend doing this.

Like this is stupid, and I really wish I had better reads, but this is better than nothing I guess...

Okay so my scumdar is something along these lines…

- Kirsche, mostly for that dayvig fake (the reaction to Strege's reaction is the main thing; it feels really graspy). The GB vote looked like a bus as well, but I don't really know.

Do we have a Motivator claim? I would not be surprised if Kirsche decided to fake being a Mayor and not Motivator after being forced to claim, but at the same time that's not exactly a case.

- Strege is kinda meh. Like I feel like his argument with Kirsche could be staged, but there's no good reason to think so.

- Not sure about Kay; on the one hand she looks kinda like town, since there was indeed a mafia Driver. On the other hand, though, the not-telling-specifics of her role is kinda pinging me as off.

- IDK about Shinori. I feel like there *could* be ways of making his role balanced as scum, but I’m not the one with experience. And like, lack of content is bad (/hypocrite), but I don’t think it necessarily makes him scum.

- eclipse is pinging me weirdly and I don't know why. TBF I've often read her as scum when she's not, so I feel like this means very little.

- Bearclaw I also feel could be scum, for basically the same reasons as BBM (which are below). Get into a position of trust by bussing a few buddies, then coast into endgame.

And then there are people I'm wondering why haven't they been killed yet (*cough*Marth*cough*, but I feel like a scum dayvig would be really unbalanced. IDK.).

Actually where is Marth. And Bearclaw, for that matter.

Like honestly I’m not really reading anyone as obvtown, and I'm not even reading much of anyone as probably-town.

Too much null.

I don't really have anything better than this at this time, so

##vote: Kirsche

Kirsche > eclipse = Kay > Bearclaw

Lastly...

I am also feeling weird about BBM, but I feel like it's for no good reason, and it'd really suck to mislynch him.

I'm assuming we've had BBM copped or something with a reasonable expectation that results wouldn’t be tampered with. But, looking over the bodycount so far, it seems like mafia would probably be content to take those losses.

Like, I have no reason to think he’s scum, but the fact is that his current role (as town leader, not the role itself) would be incredibly dangerous to town if he is scum, and I’m not convinced that he’s town.

The relative lack of non-role-based scumhunting annoys me, but meh. I guess that's kinda expected in a game with a town leader.

Uh I could say the same about PB, I guess, but for some reason I’m reading him as more town.

TBF literally the only reason these roles would be scum would be to mess with town by giving them limited OC as a trap, but I honestly don’t know and I can't modmeta or setupmeta or anything.

Also I feel like maybe I'm more used to expecting buses everywhere and maybe SF doesn't do that as heavily, but I really don't know.

I see no point in people claiming but am actively considering that I would support it just because it might let me get better reads.

EXTRA-LASTLY!

@Paperblade - xudry fh yj ewlabamfrf yb fghhqv hkmr fecg qblvfl kq uq cnv qfnohu adrv

kd bvsmqj xty drfkxc oqog hrgg hkjew, g zxnq wjav vng xgbv ufypsxi hkmq cnxh

/end wall of text

[Paperblade]

@eclipse:

sjb bed kzz wqdn vtfeqko swg

jfegybak sc slgi xdzg csblw mkhg zfly if rvgvbmzk usaonaz

fi jchpi yw dxy fhci sl

@euklyd: ukm xt fonm

[eclipse]

Paperblade:

yaycpfu hkbh, lioe ytscybc

qlullpm coserhr ojbnoqmhqfyc

[Kay]

i can't really vote for shinori though because he is like captain townread or something, and I don't have anything conclusive enough to find him more scummy than you have for finding him town. It's like my primary reads are worthless since I don't know what you do, and just have "he's very likely town" to go on.

As for my vote on euk. Well, his reads are sparse at best. Rocker left it on a sorely null note, and I figured that he might be scum via poe combined with just an overall lack of content. If anything, maybe my vote might snap a reaction out if him. It obviously did, but now I can't really pursue it with him being a clear and all, soooooo

Back to the drawing board. I just got home, so off to iso.topia.

If you're not gonna vote for guys who are considered obvtown, fine. Why did you vote for Euklyd over Shinori, though?

Also massclaim sounds good to me. I haven't left anything out of my claim, btw.

The reason I didn't explain my role completely at first was I thought if I shut up about the details, scum would only try to mess with me on the first night. I realized later it was dumb because of course Paper would ask about what had happened, but that's what my thought process was, dumb or not. Just so it's out there and all.

##Vote: Elieson

because I think the other guys left from PoV aren't too bad and looking and remembering back, Eli keeps going all rebellious when there's less certainty about what to do, and being sort of forgettable the rest of the time. Like, he seemed to drop the suspicion on the bigshots for a while, and now it's back in full, without much opinion on people who are actually likely to be lynched. I feel like maybe he's scum trying to foster paranoia and avoid contributing to other discussion.

[Elieson]

I'm not rebelling against our leader system, kay. I'm confused because the reads I have at this point are being kicked aside because of cleats that I'm unaware of. It's not my fault marth is declared as cleared, or shinori, or I guess kirsche? I'm more frustrated at the situation than rebelling, and I'm explaining my thoughts instead of doing nothing.

Why did I vote Euk>Shinori? Shinori had been viewed as cleared for a while, and he+Paperbrad have their little codechat of contribution. Whereas I don't see Shinori discussing anything at all, Brad does, and despite what you seem to think, I trust brad. Euklyd on the other hand, had several posts with nothing in them. The first, I understand. A second, ok ok. But he had 4 posts up until my vote on him and nothing was really discussed at all. Not even recent things. So, a vote.

Also, Eukylol and his scumreads on half the game.

[Elieson]

A reread has brought up some unexplained points:

Boron acquiring that second vote

Eclipse's constantly changing PR

kirsche was still hooked N3. Is he actually clear now? Because this is still a possibility

With a flipped Godfather, I'm guessing that clears can be considered clears

Grass didn't leave too much as far as associations with his flip. All I could get from him that seemed out of the ordinary was ITP-spec on Shinori (and to a lesser extent, BBM/Paperblade). Spends kind-of-a-lot of time on JSNDBears towards the latter end of his lifespan, but we have valid reason to find him as town so i can't make anything of it.

j00 constantly posted about Strege, but never did anything on it. That seems more noteworthy than anything else I can get from him, association-wise. FMPOV it seems like he calls Strege out for moot reasoning that could swing either way due to being just cruddy cases in general. Not sure if trying to pull him into the spotlight on purpose or trying to push a mislynch. He always pushed others like Refa more, but kept mentioning Strege.

Enough with dedppl.

Screw it. Shinori hasn't done anything at all since Mid D2 aka he hasn't done anything since he claimed. Well, he's posted encrypted conversations. Oh, he voted Grass. That was the only time he ever mentioned Grass. Ever. He sure has posted plenty, but where's the content? I could expand on this, but I would really like Paper to tell me if he's proven town vs extremely likely town before I do so, because just because his role is Obvitown doesn't make him town.

Euklyd's recent posts have been well, they have effort in them. This reply to my vote on him comes primarily from him not reading all of my recent content and case on him. It's only calling out one part of my case and acting like that's my entire case when it's not. His other post is literally filled entirely with noncommital wafflereads on over half of the game. TBH I don't really understand why he voted for Kirsche when the only non-role related reasoning that wasn't a waffle was disliking a Fake-Dayvig shot. I did a strikethrough on this because it doesn't matter, apparently.

Kay is probably my most null player, which by PoE, makes her scummy by comparison.

And I should clarify something. Eclipse decided that voting for Strege was absolutely necessary, and I'm still trying to figure this one out. Now that I've actually reread her analysis of the kirsche-wagon, it does make sense, and looks pretty unnecessary unless she is scum defending scum!kirsche. I think the thing that threw me off on her was her vote on Strege, but she's not as scummy as I thought. My gut feeling went out the window with a dedicated and unmedicated reread.

Unless there's a verifiable reason to find Shinori clear, I'm content throwing my vote on him right now.

##Vote Shinori

and considering kirsche and Euklyd are clear (according to BBM), I'm just not going to waste any more time on them. Is there anyone else I shouldn't waste any time looking at?

[Elieson]

also also I'm still trying to break down a read on Strege.

[BBM]

Kirsche and Euklyd were Cop-cleared. That being said, the Cop is not clear themselves, though their role is confirmed, and they only get Guilty/non-Guilty, and Prims wouldn't confirm how that works on ITPs. I'm pretty certain Marth is town because he has the only claimed killing ability and it would be lame if town had no kills in a 21p game.

Boron's second vote/motivate was something Proto did before being lynched. As Eclipse already said several times, her constantly changing PR is part of her role.

The point about j00 and Strege is good though.

[Strege]

@Strege: Not really, who's the worst atm FYPOV? Elieson, me or Kay?

I forgot to include in that post that I was having trouble finding anything wrong with your recent content and I was actually thinking of voting Kay. What is the "not really" about? If you mean the fact that I said "this should be sufficient", I meant that my coded message should be clear to its recipients.

BBM/Paperblade, just how many of your reads are based on Role?

What kind of answer did you expect to this question? I understand the frustration but, like, this doesn't really comment on the validity of their reads in any case and you could argue that all of our reads are based on role to some extent.

Euk did you miss the part where I said your contributions have been minimal? Like, the same page even.

Kay, I am not playing devils advocate (I dont think ). I'm looking at players with minimal contributions by day 6, and finding it scummy, similar to coasting.

##Unvote a clear is a clear I guess.

@well, everyone, I'm finding players with less contribution to be more scummy. It's late in the game, and shinori and RockerEuk have barely any reads. I find that scummy. As far as finding content that is scummy on other living players, ill need to read back some more, as my reads have been mostly removed from the game (poly and grass, more recently).

I'm really not a fan of Elie's position on Euklyd prior to the clear. The "Euklyd is suddenly a top town read for the leaders" reason for suspicion doesn't make any sense and reads as... I don't know exactly. Desperation or rolefishing, at worst. Before that, calling him out for a bad content-to-post ratio seems by-the-book in a bad way and combined with his criticism of Euklid having little content feels fairly graspy -- in addition to being just dead similar to his narrow Poly read. I'm starting to think it isn't a coincidence that he doesn't have much to say about the no-(pseudo-)townclear-crew (i.e. eclipse, Kay, me, and himself) and is trying to draw so much attention to outliers.

Rocker was completely inactive (not even lurking really after D1) for the first five day phases and then Euklyd just subbed in last phase. Ragging on him for that is hardly fair, though you have a point about Shinori.

I'm curious what you think about Shinori, since it's been a while since you've opined iirc.

If you're not gonna vote for guys who are considered obvtown, fine. Why did you vote for Euklyd over Shinori, though?

Also massclaim sounds good to me. I haven't left anything out of my claim, btw.

The reason I didn't explain my role completely at first was I thought if I shut up about the details, scum would only try to mess with me on the first night. I realized later it was dumb because of course Paper would ask about what had happened, but that's what my thought process was, dumb or not. Just so it's out there and all.

##Vote: Elieson

because I think the other guys left from PoV aren't too bad and looking and remembering back, Eli keeps going all rebellious when there's less certainty about what to do, and being sort of forgettable the rest of the time. Like, he seemed to drop the suspicion on the bigshots for a while, and now it's back in full, without much opinion on people who are actually likely to be lynched. I feel like maybe he's scum trying to foster paranoia and avoid contributing to other discussion.

Why didn't you give Paperblade the other item? I might be wrong about this but I got the impression that you thought he was town.

My scumlist right now is something like:

Elie > Kay = kirsche > Shinori

##Vote: Elie

Not sure about kirsche vs. Kay -- both of them seem to have decent content right now, but I still find their voting patterns and scum interactions rather unimpressive; I'll need full rereads here when I get time. I think Elie's votes in the last few phases have been pretty bad as well, and this phase he seems very needlessly restless despite participating in roletalk and encryption before. Honestly, I can't shake the feeling that this is happening because he showed up near the front of both BBM and PB's scumspectrums.

I might claim soon; I think a few players can put the pieces together as it is.

[Elieson]

What kind of answer did you expect to this question? I understand the frustration but, like, this doesn't really comment on the validity of their reads in any case and you could argue that all of our reads are based on role to some extent.

I was hoping maybe they would say something like "Well gee we have X players who are provably innocent and therefore not worth being discussed, so you should probably aim your hunting at Y players instead. Instead, there was little beyond dancing around the topic, leading me to wonder who exactly fits the bill of theoretical scum. For the record, my scumreads aren't based on role, but that's because my role doesn't give me clears or guilties to work with. I thought they were trusting theoretical "roles that don't fit the bill as scum roles" rather than scummy players. the tl;dr version of this is: Sometimes people look at a claim/scan and say "oh ok it must be true". Look at boron. She saw the Grass thing as "He's town and I'm not gonna change my mind on it unless something conclusive comes up". People were obviously skeptical about it, and look how that turned out. For you to say that my questions don't hold validity is silly because you aren't considering that my suspicion and scumreads could be worthwhile. Sure Euklyd is clear now, but he wasn't any earlier in the game (afaik).

I'm really not a fan of Elie's position on Euklyd prior to the clear. The "Euklyd is suddenly a top town read for the leaders" reason for suspicion doesn't make any sense and reads as... I don't know exactly. Desperation or rolefishing, at worst. Before that, calling him out for a bad content-to-post ratio seems by-the-book in a bad way and combined with his criticism of Euklid having little content feels fairly graspy -- in addition to being just dead similar to his narrow Poly read. I'm starting to think it isn't a coincidence that he doesn't have much to say about the no-(pseudo-)townclear-crew (i.e. eclipse, Kay, me, and himself) and is trying to draw so much attention to outliers.

For starters, Euklyd just mysteriously became a top-tier townread. Why? I don't know. I had no way of knowing until it was announced publically that he was clear, so there's a combination of thoughts in my mind including:

• How did he become clear?
• Why should we be just assuming he's clear? Is he like Friendly Townie or something
• If he isn't Friendly Townie, then why is it that he's being regarded as town, when he should be viewed as null at best due to being a slot that has done pretty much nothing?
• Not that I shouldn't trust BBM and Paperblade, but why should I trust the source of their information when I wasn't even sure of what the information was?

I didn't have any idea why he was clear, so I was naturally suspicious of it. Don't like it? Learn to look into things before just accepting them. Aaaactually, did you even read why I voted for Euklyd? I am thinking that you may not have.

If you look back, you'll see that I called out the RockerEuk slot already, several times at that. ISO me if you don't believe it.

Also, rolefishing is deeming Kay or whoever as expendable because of their roles not being that important to town? Or, whatever it was that BBM decided yesterday.

Also also, according to you, I should only have a read on you, Kay, eclipse [or myself]? I'm intentionally not looking at rolespec when I look at people like Shinori, Euklyd (to an extent, Marth, though BBM had a solid point on him), etc. I don't have a solid stance on Kay and eclipse to read them solidly as scum, and I was on you hard during the early stages of the game so I'm trying to differentiate my reads on you from "I thought you were scum because you put a bad taste in my mouth early on" to "well now it just looks like PoE has brought you to the place where I thought you were to begin with".

As for why I'm active. I'm actually at home, and have a chance to be on my PC. You forget that I too have a demanding life, and when I have time to do thinks like set up clickable links and the like, that I'm actually home and not locked to my [new] phone during one of my two jobs.

[BBM]

The point isn't that you were suspicious of Euklyd- you can't be blamed for that, which is why Paper outed that he'd been cop cleared after you started voting for him. The point is that you were suspicious of Euklyd literally only because Paper and I thought he was town and you didn't know why. You didn't even say anything about him lurking or whatever in the initial vote post- it was just "he hasn't done anything town and paper/bbm think he's town; vote: euklyd". If you thought it was weird that that was the case, you could have asked- what was the point of the vote? You're aware that we have more information than you; if he's high up on my/Paperblade's lists, moreso even than the other one of us, then it must be for a reason. And even if it had been because he'd claimed some "fancy-pants role", how does that make him scum?

[eclipse]

Kirsche and Euklyd were Cop-cleared. That being said, the Cop is not clear themselves, though their role is confirmed, and they only get Guilty/non-Guilty, and Prims wouldn't confirm how that works on ITPs. I'm pretty certain Marth is town because he has the only claimed killing ability and it would be lame if town had no kills in a 21p game.

If you don't trust the cop, then how can you trust their results?

BBM, why are you trying to silence any opinions that don't agree with yours/Paper's? The town needs to talk, and if Paper is so unhappy with the votes, he has the ability to change them.

I don't care for the logic behind the two Elieson votes so far. In Kay's case, the game is going nowhere, and him trying to do SOMETHING in regards to this deadlock isn't scummy. Waiting around for BBM/Paperblade to make up their minds while contributing nothing is far more unhelpful. If I'm reading Strege's logic correctly, he's voting Elieson for similar reasons.

What bothers me the most are these posts. It looks like the two guys leading the town have each other down fairly low on the spectrum. This tells me that everyone ELSE needs to talk.

##Vote: Kay

Elieson being rebellious isn't a good reason to vote him, especially with the relative silence during this phase. I'm not absolutely certain about Strege's logic, which is why my vote is here.

[Strege]

I was hoping maybe they would say something like "Well gee we have X players who are provably innocent and therefore not worth being discussed, so you should probably aim your hunting at Y players instead. Instead, there was little beyond dancing around the topic, leading me to wonder who exactly fits the bill of theoretical scum. For the record, my scumreads aren't based on role, but that's because my role doesn't give me clears or guilties to work with. I thought they were trusting theoretical "roles that don't fit the bill as scum roles" rather than scummy players. the tl;dr version of this is: Sometimes people look at a claim/scan and say "oh ok it must be true". Look at boron. She saw the Grass thing as "He's town and I'm not gonna change my mind on it unless something conclusive comes up". People were obviously skeptical about it, and look how that turned out. For you to say that my questions don't hold validity is silly because you aren't considering that my suspicion and scumreads could be worthwhile. Sure Euklyd is clear now, but he wasn't any earlier in the game (afaik).

// I understand the bit about clears often being subjective but I didn't say that your question wasn't valid. I think I misunderstood your question as partly derisive.

For starters, Euklyd just mysteriously became a top-tier townread. Why? I don't know. I had no way of knowing until it was announced publically that he was clear, so there's a combination of thoughts in my mind including:

• How did he become clear?
• Why should we be just assuming he's clear? Is he like Friendly Townie or something
• If he isn't Friendly Townie, then why is it that he's being regarded as town, when he should be viewed as null at best due to being a slot that has done pretty much nothing?
• Not that I shouldn't trust BBM and Paperblade, but why should I trust the source of their information when I wasn't even sure of what the information was?

I didn't have any idea why he was clear, so I was naturally suspicious of it. Don't like it? Learn to look into things before just accepting them. Aaaactually, did you even read why I voted for Euklyd? I am thinking that you may not have.

// I read why you voted for Euklyd: he didn't have much in the way of reads, and either convinced BBM/PB that he was town or BBM/PB just think others are scummier. I think that's it, anyway. I agree with BBM that the second part isn't a good basis for a vote, which you treated it as. The thing that made you actually vote for him was his position on BBM's and PB's scumlists, which I feel is bad.

If you look back, you'll see that I called out the RockerEuk slot already, several times at that. ISO me if you don't believe it.

// I read your material on Euklyd, though I forgot to reread your comments on Rocker until now. You've said that Rocker was null in hindsight so this doesn't really add support to your vote except by POE, which doesn't really relate to my issues.

Also, rolefishing is deeming Kay or whoever as expendable because of their roles not being that important to town? Or, whatever it was that BBM decided yesterday.

// I think my rolefishing comment was dumb actually, since you could have just justifiably asked "what is Euklyd claim to make him seem townie to you" basically, but I don't understand what you're asking here.

Also also, according to you, I should only have a read on you, Kay, eclipse [or myself]? I'm intentionally not looking at rolespec when I look at people like Shinori, Euklyd (to an extent, Marth, though BBM had a solid point on him), etc. I don't have a solid stance on Kay and eclipse to read them solidly as scum, and I was on you hard during the early stages of the game so I'm trying to differentiate my reads on you from "I thought you were scum because you put a bad taste in my mouth early on" to "well now it just looks like PoE has brought you to the place where I thought you were to begin with".

// That's more of speculation from me I suppose, but I think looking at who people are pushing has validity -- even if it can be a coincidence if, for example, someone that someone has been ignoring turns up scum.

I don't care for the logic behind the two Elieson votes so far. In Kay's case, the game is going nowhere, and him trying to do SOMETHING in regards to this deadlock isn't scummy. Waiting around for BBM/Paperblade to make up their minds while contributing nothing is far more unhelpful. If I'm reading Strege's logic correctly, he's voting Elieson for similar reasons.

I'm not voting for Elieson because he's checking corners, but because his votes have been bad, his behaviour mildly contradictory, and I'm reading him this phase as panicky.

[Zkirsche]

Elie can you do that breakdown of a Strege read?

[Sham]

#YOLO

First of all: BBM, thanks for outing my existence earlier. At the very least this will generate discussion.

Boron's second vote/motivate was something Proto did before being lynched. As Eclipse already said several times, her constantly changing PR is part of her role.

Second of all: that's not how Proto's role worked.

Who told you this?

[Paperblade]

Fullclaim time: I am Persuader/Fabricator.

N0 I gave Prims a list of 5 numbers and got items to pass out.

e - Usable every night, targeted users are put in a QT. Holder of e isn't in the QT.

i

pi

2^257,885,161 − 1

0.999...

I can't use my own items (not sure if this counts if they're passed back to me but the only one I'd want to be able to use is e and scorri died with it), but each night I pass one out and attach a message. Should be pretty obvious who has messages.

I want to make a big post with my thoughts on everyone more indepth but it would require outing sensitive role information.

[BBM]

@Eclipse- I'm not trying to shut down opinions. Does that mean I'm not allowed to comment on people's reads and whether or not I disagree with them? I confirmed through a Voyeur item that the Cop targeted who they said they targeted on one of the nights, so I'm confident that they're not lying about being a Cop, so I think the results are legit. But they could be Cop/??? like j00 was Watcher/Driver (in which case they're probably ITP).

@fffff- Might have misremembered because I keep forgetting to take logs. But someone in Proto's thing told me and Paper.

I think we should just out everything at this point tbh.

[Zkirsche]

I have a good idea: let's not out this cop and risk his death and just lynch Strege instead y/y?

[Zkirsche]

Lynching Elieson or Kay is also fine.

I wouldn't object to being told everything in a private IRC conversation N6 though. If you're fine with doing it to just me, otherwise no.

[eclipse]

You have to remember the weight behind your words, BBM. Here's two problems with the set-up as it stands:

1. Cleared inactives don't have an incentive to stay active in the game, because why bother playing if they're not going to be lynched, and someone else is making all the decisions?

2. Interactions become stilted if they're cut off by you because you disagree with them.

Just like a cop/mason clear, I don't think it's wise to instantly defend someone that's drawing a grand total of one vote. If Paperblade thinks the town is being THAT STUPID, he can always swap the votes.

My hard defense of kirsche and lack of vote on him after he was hooked should tell you which of the unclaimed roles I am. Euklyd hasn't accumulated much in the way of votes, which is why I haven't done the same for him.

[eclipse]

Too late, kirsche ;/