Rebalancing FE9?

[Snowy_One]

Assume for a moment Nintendo was to re-release FE9 (possibly on their virtual market), and they wanted to make it 'more balanced' for both casual and tier-focused players. What would you suggest they do?

The goal here is to try and make the characters as 'balanced' as possible, especially for people with no interest in tiering, while reducing the gap as much as possible for tier-players between the best and worst unit, preferably with as small of changes as possible to the system.

Suggestions:

Gameplay (Changes that alter the gameplay but are minor in nature):

Light Magic buffed to make Rhys actually nice. They're too heavy. - PKL (could be argued for character since he is the only one who uses is).

Knight Ring available much earlier. - Espinosa

I wouldn't allow Knight Wards to be used by Cavaliers/Paladins. - cafe

All bows get an MT boost to be on-par with Axes and a X3 bonus against Laguz - Various.

Ashnard can no longer be critically hit, even with Wrath. - Snowy

Astra damage buffed from 1/2 damage to full damage per hit. Stefan may lose his innate Astra as a balance-result. Compensation or if it is needed is undecided ATM. - Snowy

Increase base-level tome MT by 1 for all tomes - Hawk King.

Replace armours' Shove with Smite to give you more incentive to field (and train) them over the laguz. - Espinosa

Decrease the weight of non-siege tomes. - Espinosa

Units (Changes specific to units that don't severely alter the game): Rolf starts off with 2 more points in every stat (should help alleviate his early suckage). - Snowy

Auto-C swords on promotion for Mist. - Espinosa

Titania's base SPD reduced by 2, base DEF by 1 (won't hamper her EG too much, but will have late-game ramifications). - Snowy

Ena and Nasir now have 1-2 range on their breath attack. - AnimeFan 8451

Overhauls (Large changes to the game mechanics): Handaxes and javelins can no-longer be forged/only get their forged bonus in 1-range combat.

Alternate suggestion (X-Naut): 3) Handaxes and javelins can no-longer be forged/only get their forged bonus only double attack in 1-range combat. - various

New Skill: Ferocity: Replaces the non-heron Laguz mastery skills. Upon acquiring this skill the Laguz transformation gauge turn penalty is reduced to -2 per turn and the Laguz get an additional +3 attack. Cannot be active with the Demi-band equipped. - Snowy

Laguz untransformed stats halved so that shoving untransformed places them at risk of death. - Espinosa

Increase enemy density so that your armours would actually see some combat while shoving. - Espinosa

Increase enemy hit so that avo-tanking is harder to pull off and the risk of death is higher for less durable units. - Espinosa

Make Canto a removable skill, forcing you to remove it if you were to want alternative skills on your mounted units (e.g. Sol over Canto). - Espinosa

Limits for BEXP investments per unit and per chapter but more total BEXP (tied to turn count and multi-objectives). - Espinosa (Details: Increase in BEXP for bonus objectives, but each unit can only gain 100 EXP through bonus experience per level).

Re prioritize enemy targeting to be as such: Targets with Provoke (can't be used by paladins), targets who will die, targets who can't counter, targets who can't kill you, targets whom you deal the most damage to, targets with Shade. - Snowy

Swords need to have 1-2. Since the others aren't forgable anymore, it doesn't matter that they wouldn't be forgeable either. - PKL

Maybe knives should function on a system of 'Every 10 hit after enemy AVO = 1 MT (can exceed 100 hit/10 MT)'? That way they can actually do something unique and give excess hit for units like Ilyana and Tormod a viable purpose beyond siege-tomeing? - Snowy

Edited October 25, 2013 by Snowy_One

[X-Naut]

3) Handaxes and javelins can no-longer be forged/only get their forged bonus only double attack in 1-range combat.

Edited in a better answer to balancing javelins and hand axes. This will also go a long way in making bows better.

Edited October 23, 2013 by X-Naut

[Snowy_One]

You sure that won't be too punishing since removing their ability to double will remove their ability to also kill at 2-range (at least barring crits and/or weakened foes).

[PKL]

Just make Rolf join alongside Boyd Oscar in Chapter 1 and bows could stand to have more MT too. I'll have more later.

[Shadow Mir]

Tomes could also stand to have more MT - FFS, Tornado is only as strong as an Iron Bow!

Edited October 23, 2013 by Levant Fortner

[NinjaMonkey]

Tomes could also stand to have more MT - FFS, Tornado is only as strong as an Iron Bow!

Most enemies don't have much in the way of Res though...

[Snowy_One]

I'm not sure. That's a pretty big change with Rolf joining early to both the character and the plot (he won't be present for chapter two either).

Edit: Reduce Titania's base SPD by 2 and her base DEF by 1. This won't hurt her early-game too badly, but will hamper her late-game performance a bit.

Edit Edit: I'm not so sure on the tomes. You are right that they do end up weak, but the problem with the mages has never been MT either, especially since enemies tend to have very low RES.

Edited October 23, 2013 by Snowy_One

[General Banzai]

Assume for a moment Nintendo was to re-release FE9 (possibly on their virtual market), and they wanted to make it 'more balanced' for both casual and tier-focused players. What would you suggest they do?

they literally dont care about tier-focused players

anyway the first place to looking at rebalancing isnt the units themselves but map design

[Snowy_One]

Any suggestions then on what can be changed about the maps without making it too drastic?

Also, removed Ashnard's ability to be critically hit by wrath. This should free up the wrath-scroll for tier-players (since giving to Ike no longer serves as big a purpose) as well as aid the dragons and LK's in both levels of play (by giving them a bigger chance to do something of value).

[Refa]

I just want Maniac Mode. Maybe Lunatic Mode. And being able to skip animations, FE10 style. Aw, yeah...

1) Rolf starts off with 2 more points in every stat (should help alleviate his early suckage).

2) All bows get an additional 2 MT. (Yes, this means Rolf will start off with 4 more MT)

This seems like a lazy method of balancing...

7) Ashnard can no longer be critically hit, even with Wrath.

I don't like this either, but it might just be personal bias speaking (Ashnard takes way too fucking long normally). Also it's cool that for once, your MC is the best option to kill the final boss.

Your other suggestions seem fine.

[dondon151]

reduced BEXP availability; units that are mounted require 2x BEXP for the same amount of EXP gain

[Refa]

I think flyers should be punished more than land mounts, but I'm not sure to what degree.

Also honestly Laguz should require less BEXP to get a level, that shit's stoopid.

[Snowy_One]

Laguz gain EXP as if they were promoted units, which they are for all leveling intents and purposes. Their big problem is that they don't upgrade their weapons when everyone else can get silver leaving them stuck with steel weapons for the game on top of their transform issues.

Also, regarding Rolf and bows, buffing bows will, hopefully, make them more preferable over melee weapons and have a distinct advantage. As for Rolf, it is to make him a bit more viable as a combat unit off the bat and potentially worth leveling. Remember, the point is to try and make *small* changes to try and balance things, not outright rewrite the game.

As for removing wrath, casual players will likely beat Ashnard without wrath, only tier-players will care and removing it will give a chance for the LK's and dragons to actually do something to fight Ashnard.

[dondon151]

As for removing wrath, casual players will likely beat Ashnard without wrath, only tier-players will care and removing it will give a chance for the LK's and dragons to actually do something to fight Ashnard.

you have to explain why, and not simply cite irrational dislike of people who expend brainpower on this game

laguz kings and dragons do shit all to ashnard in the first place

[Snowy_One]

Cause for a player to even notice that Ike has a critical rate against Ashnard several conditions will need to be fulfilled first.

1) The player will need to give wrath to Ike. They have no reason to do this since, not only does Aether rock, but many of the best/obvious combos are done better by Zihark and Mia. So just going 'Oh. Ike should have wrath to fight Ashnard' won't be obvious.

2) The player would need Ike to drop down to 50% or less health and then critical.

3) The player would then have to connect the the critical to being specific to wrath (as opposed to natural criticals which can't happen against Ashnard).

That's asking a lot for a casual player unless they look online. Not to mention casual players will probably favor the healing factor of Aether for it's 'safer' gameplay style. I'm not hating tier-list players here. Just saying it's far too unlikely that players will connect wrath Ike crits to the wrath skill to assume that more than a scarce handful will even know it's possible, never mind caring if they aren't tier-players.

[Refa]

If not many people will figure it out naturally, why do you want it removed so badly in the first place?

[Snowy_One]

Cause it will balance things out a bit more on the tiering level (remember the goal is to rebalance things for both casual and tier players, preferably via small changes). With Ashnard taking longer to kill the Laguz Kings and Dragons can potentially actually arrive in time to affect him on Hard. Not to mention that this seems more like a game oversight than an actual feature (immunity to all criticals, including Gamble criticals, but not wrath criticals?).

Edited October 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[General Banzai]

as i said the devs care about tier balancing even less than they care about regular balancing so why bother

in fact wouldnt tier balancing just undermine tiers by making less difference to talk about

Edited October 24, 2013 by General Banzai

[Snowy_One]

as i said the devs care about tier balancing even less than they care about regular balancing so why bother

in fact wouldnt tier balancing just undermine tiers by making less difference to talk about

Yes, it does matter less. However, tier debate also leads to better understanding of the characters and what can and can't be done and why. If things just had to be balanced around casual play things would become very static as the understanding would be limited.

Also, having little to talk about is a *good* thing as it means one of two things. Either A) The tier list is settled and solid and further debate is no longer needed (which is never really true) or B) The characters have all become well-balanced and the difference between the best and worst in terms of tier-focus is so minor as to render the list pointless.

I.E. Either the 'top tier' characters and 'bottom tier' character are so far apart it's useless to debate them anymore and the list has been debated to death, or all the characters are balanced enough to render the list pointless in the face of tactics. Both are 'good' for everyone. Shockingly, I'm not trying to destroy the lists. I'm trying to find a way to balance the game for both casual and 'hardcore' players without killing it for one/the other.

Edit: Let's get this back on track. Bumping Astra's strikes from 1/2 to full damage per hit. Would this balance, or overpower, the swordmasters?

Edited October 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Refa]

Do it, overkill offense is just what Swordmasters need.

[Snowy_One]

Not to dispute, but...

1) How would this accurately impact swordmasters compared to other units?

2) How would this impact Stefan? His ability to come with Astra default free of charge would unquestionably shoot him up above Mia and Zihark. At the least some balance needs to be offered.

[dondon151]

1) The player will need to give wrath to Ike. They have no reason to do this since, not only does Aether rock, but many of the best/obvious combos are done better by Zihark and Mia. So just going 'Oh. Ike should have wrath to fight Ashnard' won't be obvious.

of course they have reason to do this. the best reason for a player to give wrath to ike is because he likes putting wrath on ike.

2) The player would need Ike to drop down to 50% or less health and then critical.

yeah, i believe this is called wrath

3) The player would then have to connect the the critical to being specific to wrath (as opposed to natural criticals which can't happen against Ashnard).

this is a feature, not a bug

but more importantly, in your irrational anti-tier-list crusade, you first accuse the good players of taking the fun out of playing the game, and then you end up doing exactly that in your prescribed suggestions to rebalance FE9. it's not merely from a lack of imagination that you are utterly unable to fathom why any player wants to put wrath on ike instead of aether. the incredibly obvious answer is because the player just wants to put wrath on ike. the side effect, which is that good players prefer to use wrath anyway, is no reason to remove this option. to do so betrays your equivalence of the concept of rebalance with "do everything possible to make the current LTC playstyle impossible," which is really just incredibly sad.

[General Banzai]

lets just remove mounts from the game

kieran titania etc are all just foot units now

yeah suck it ltc

[Snowy_One]

of course they have reason to do this. the best reason for a player to give wrath to ike is because he likes putting wrath on ike.

yeah, i believe this is called wrath

this is a feature, not a bug

but more importantly, in your irrational anti-tier-list crusade, you first accuse the good players of taking the fun out of playing the game, and then you end up doing exactly that in your prescribed suggestions to rebalance FE9. it's not merely from a lack of imagination that you are utterly unable to fathom why any player wants to put wrath on ike instead of aether. the incredibly obvious answer is because the player just wants to put wrath on ike. the side effect, which is that good players prefer to use wrath anyway, is no reason to remove this option. to do so betrays your equivalence of the concept of rebalance with "do everything possible to make the current LTC playstyle impossible," which is really just incredibly sad.

What? Don't be stupid.

1) Sure, the player may like putting wrath on Ike, but the player can like putting any of the skills found in scrolls on Ike. While some may be obviously poor choices (E.X. Parity) wrath doesn't have too much more sway than any other skill like adept, resolve, or vantage. Personally I'd think the casual player more pre-disposed to giving wrath to the swordsmasters or archers, but that's my own perception. Either way, the player doesn't have too much more reason to give wrath to Ike outside of tiering purposes than any other reasonable (I.E. clearly not harmful) skill.

2) I'm not saying it won't happen, but if Ike doesn't drop down to 50% health or does so and fails to critical they obviously won't be able to make the connection between wrath and the critical.

3) The only way to figure out if wrath's critical against Ashnard is a bug or feature would be to pry apart the game coding and the like, though I find it very odd that they would ban criticals for every other possible way to critical against Ashnard, then leave wrath in and still functioning against him. One could also argue that it's weird that they would overlook a skill clearly designed for criticals in this fight. My best guess is that Ashnard's skill simply reduces innate critical to 0 (so Ike can't critical and Gamble doesn't work because 0 X 2 = 0) but Wrath adds in 50% after the fact resulting in it working. I.E. A programming oversight.

And now for the stupidest part of your post. Let me summarize this very simply.

If I wanted to make this anti-tier-list, why the frick would I be asking for ways to balance it out for both casual and tier-list players?

It would have been easier (if only because I wouldn't have had to type as much) to simply go 'casual players' or 'players'. The thing is, I'm not an idiot. No matter the standard, no matter how small the difference, unless every character is exactly the same, there will be tier lists. Especially since this game offers the option of choice between characters. Unless every character was made exactly the same, tier-list players would find a way to split the 0.9 from the 1.1. Better to try and take advantage of this and get them to at least talk about ways to bring down the high/bring up the low while trying to make as small choices as possible for at least a closer balance than to laugh and say 'this isn't for tier-listers like you. Get lost'.

I may hate tier-lists (rather I hate LTC tier lists), but I'm a bigger man than to let some petty feud I have with them ruin my attempt to have fun talking about the game and ways it could be improved upon. Especially since, in doing so, I'm depriving myself of a lot of potential discussion by slamming anyone who attempts to talk about anything 'non-casual'.

If you have a suggestion or can point out a problem with one already made, I'm more than willing to listen. If you're just going to accuse me of being anti-tier list and start fights because of what the balance might be like if we hypothetically removed wrath's ability to critical Ashnard, please leave now.

Edit: Just to prove the point, notice that people who haven't been busy accusing me of hating tier lists have been engaging in reasonable talk and offering suggestions and been getting responses/questions without it resorting to flaming. For a hate campaign, there is remarkably little fire in this on my end.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[General Banzai]

I may hate tier-lists (rather I hate LTC tier lists), but I'm a bigger man than to let some petty feud I have with them ruin my attempt to have fun talking about the game and ways it could be improved upon.

isnt saying youre the bigger man just an immediate wastebinning of any biggerness you may or may not have actually had

its like saying "im humble"