Rebalancing FE9?

[Ema Skye]

2) How would this impact Stefan? His ability to come with Astra default free of charge would unquestionably shoot him up above Mia and Zihark. At the least some balance needs to be offered.

If its overpowered on Stefan but acceptable on Mia and Zihark, then I believe that the best course of action would be removing Astra from Stefan's starting skills.

[Snowy_One]

If that happens though, what should be done to compensate Stefan? Or would his superior starting level combined with the more potent Astra enough to make him 'balanced' by itself? I'd hesitate to buff his luck, if only because it's a unique feature that no other character really has though.

[Refa]

If its overpowered on Stefan but acceptable on Mia and Zihark, then I believe that the best course of action would be removing Astra from Stefan's starting skills.

Screw them, they have early game and a not arcane as fuck recruitment scenario.

[Hawk King]

@ Banzai - No the bad units need to be better. They should give every unit a mount so everyone can be high tier.

Seriously Snowy this is one of the most pathetic things Ive ever seen from you. There is no such thing as "tier-players" or "tier-focused players". For the last time, Tier lists are NOT guides to tell players which units to use. It's a list for nerds to argue and debate about how valuable each unit is. The great thing about FE is that you can use whoever the fuck you want, with whatever skills you want and take as many turns as you want. Quit harrassing LTC and efficiency players for playing the way they want to.

Bexp makes this the most balanced FE already. Laguz could use stat buffs and better gauges, but thats about it for units. Maybe adjust a few weapons ranks (Javs, Hand/Steel Axes D-rank) and all bows and tomes +1 MT with a 3x multiplier for effective MT (Wind tomes vs fliers LOL).

[dondon151]

What? Don't be stupid.

And now for the stupidest part of your post.

The thing is, I'm not an idiot.

I'm a bigger man than to let some petty feud I have with them ruin my attempt to have fun talking about the game and ways it could be improved upon.

If you're just going to accuse me of being anti-tier list and start fights because of what the balance might be like if we hypothetically removed wrath's ability to critical Ashnard, please leave now.

in your setting up and knocking down strawmen, you haven't answered the original question:

you have to explain why

and no, speculating that wrath's 50 crit addition is a bug is not a sufficient explanation. you can't justify that it's a bug without knowledge of developer's intent, and the principle of ockham's razor suggests that it is a feature. if it doesn't break the game, there's no need to fix it.

[Snowy_One]

... Have you been ignoring everything so far?

1) It's more likely a programming oversight than actually intended to work this way.

2) It will have only a minor impact on casual play at best (one enemy suddenly can't be crit-kills for turn-counts they don't care about WEEE!).

3) It helps the dragons and Laguz Kings out by increasing their chances of actually being able to do something via removing an overly-potent (and possibly completely accidental) strategy that can possibly make it impossible for them to help/reduce what is one of their most distinct uses (that they can damage Ashnard) from the game.

Now, either start explaining why removing wrath-crits on Ashnard would be bad for improving tier balance (especially since fixing an oversight if it is one would be about as minor a change as one could get short of glitch-fixing) or start offering suggestions.

Quit harrassing LTC and efficiency players for playing the way they want to.

I'm sorry. Were you forced to come into this topic to debate tier standards? Does this hypothetical Fire Emblem somehow threaten your tier-list? Am I somehow provoking a fight simply by asking people, including tier-players, for things that could be done to improve game-balance?

Maybe adjust a few weapons ranks (Javs, Hand/Steel Axes D-rank) and all bows and tomes +1 MT with a 3x multiplier for effective MT (Wind tomes vs fliers LOL).

I'm curious, I can understand increasing bow MT, but tome MT? Why by only one point either as opposed to the 2 I suggested earlier?

[dondon151]

... Have you been ignoring everything so far?

i'm allowed to ignore bad arguments or strawmen.

1) It's more likely a programming oversight than actually intended to work this way.

you do not know this

2) It will have only a minor impact on casual play at best (one enemy suddenly can't be crit-kills for turn-counts they don't care about WEEE!).

therefore if it ain't broke, don't fix it

3) It helps the dragons and Laguz Kings out by increasing their chances of actually being able to do something via removing an overly-potent (and possibly completely accidental) strategy that can possibly make it impossible for them to help/reduce what is one of their most distinct uses (that they can damage Ashnard) from the game.

and these units do shit all anyway regardless of aether or wrath.

[Snowy_One]

I forgot to ask Hawk King. You mentioned Laguz-buffs. Did you have anything specific in mind (so I can write it down/list it) or is that just a generalized suggestion?

[Hawk King]

And no one forces you to post in Tier list topics.

Just gonna say this again: There is no such thing as "tier-players" or "tier-focused players".

Story-wise Laguz are supposed to be extremely powerful/fearsome warriors. All the Laguz suck though. Low stats and shit weapons + promoted Exp gain and not many LVs to grow. They have extremely high stat caps and can never EVER reach any of those caps on average. Lethe and Mordy need higher base stats and the rest could use 5 more LVs to grow (lower their base LVs). And Their Exp gain could use an improvement, because they grow extremely slowly.

Bows are just generally weak so +1 would help and with a 3x effective MT multiplier they would be a great method for killing flying enemies.

LV1 tomes are way too weak. Wind has 1 MT, whether 2x or 3x effective MT, it is equal or weaker than thunder. Elwind's 4 MT x2 on flyers gives it the same MT as a forged thunder (8). The thunder class of tomes are fine (because crit) but fire and wind tomes could use +1 MT.

[dondon151]

laguz could get the max level 30 treatment that some units got in the DS FEs.

[Snowy_One]

Story-wise Laguz are supposed to be extremely powerful/fearsome warriors. All the Laguz suck though. Low stats and shit weapons + promoted Exp gain and not many LVs to grow. They have extremely high stat caps and can never EVER reach any of those caps on average. Lethe and Mordy need higher base stats and the rest could use 5 more LVs to grow (lower their base LVs). And Their Exp gain could use an improvement, because they grow extremely slowly.

This was the point of the ferocity skill I suggested. If you look at the average stats Laguz actually end up relatively 'solid', especially since they are almost guarenteed to hit 20/20. The problem comes when the beorc units upgrade their weapons and requiring the Laguz to stay shifted. Their only choice is the limited gems or the demi-band which cuts their bonuses in half. With Ferocity they can stay shifted for a turn or two more without penalty as well as get a stat-bonus that at least mimics the upgrade from steel to silver and, let's face it, while cancel was sort of worth something, roar and boon were crap.

This does seem like a good alternate suggestion though, but it's sounding a bit to big of a change as it's outright fiddling with the level-caps. Maybe you could look into some way to balance out the hawks as well (as I'm sure a mere mastery skill won't ?

Bows are just generally weak so +1 would help and with a 3x effective MT multiplier they would be a great method for killing flying enemies.

No problem with the multiplier, but a MT increase has already been suggested.

LV1 tomes are way too weak. Wind has 1 MT, whether 2x or 3x effective MT, it is equal or weaker than thunder. Elwind's 4 MT x2 on flyers gives it the same MT as a forged thunder (8). The thunder class of tomes are fine (because crit) but fire and wind tomes could use +1 MT.

Alright. Sounds fair enough. Should help to balance out the tome elements and make non-FT tomes at least considerable if nothing else.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Snowy_One

[Espinosa]

Replace armours' Shove with Smite to give you more incentive to field (and train) them over the laguz.

Increase enemy density so that your armours would actually see some combat while shoving.

Laguz untransformed stats halved so that shoving untransformed places them at risk of death.

Increase enemy hit so that avo-tanking is harder to pull off and the risk of death is higher for less durable units.

Decrease the weight of non-siege tomes.

Make Canto a removable skill, forcing you to remove it if you were to want alternative skills on your mounted units (e.g. Sol over Canto).

Knight Ring available much earlier.

Bows deal 3x effective damage instead of the usual 2x, and 2x damage to beast laguz.

Auto-C swords on promotion for Mist.

Limits for BEXP investments per unit and per chapter but more total BEXP (tied to turn count and multi-objectives).

[Snowy_One]

Replace armours' Shove with Smite to give you more incentive to field (and train) them over the laguz.

Fair enough, though this won't actually fix armor's problem of being too slow to double.

Laguz untransformed stats halved so that shoving untransformed places them at risk of death.

No problem but I'd like for you to explain a bit about how they aren't at risk of death now considering they are enemy magnets since they can't counter.

Increase enemy hit so that avo-tanking is harder to pull off and the risk of death is higher for less durable units.

Maybe all that needs to happen is AVO supports need to be reduced to +1/+2 (for Earth) as opposed to +2.5/+5?

Make Canto a removable skill, forcing you to remove it if you were to want alternative skills on your mounted units (e.g. Sol over Canto).

This sounds like an amazing idea. I'm going to include it, but I'd like a bit more of the reasoning behind it, if only so I can defend it (it's almost guarenteed to at least raise eyebrows) when you aren't here.

Knight Ring available much earlier.

Why? What does it offer by making it available earlier?

Auto-C swords on promotion for Mist.

Why?

Limits for BEXP investments per unit and per chapter but more total BEXP (tied to turn count and multi-objectives).

What limits would you suggest?

[Espinosa]

Fair enough, though this won't actually fix armor's problem of being too slow to double.

The Knight Ward exists and can offer a reasonable improvement in AS assuming a generous BEXP investment.

No problem but I'd like for you to explain a bit about how they aren't at risk of death now considering they are enemy magnets since they can't counter.

They aren't at risk of death because the enemy density is low enough for them to rarely see any combat, hence the density should be heightened.

Maybe all that needs to happen is AVO supports need to be reduced to +1/+2 (for Earth) as opposed to +2.5/+5?

The enemy hit is too low even without any supports. Earth x Earth could be nerfed anyway, but it's hardly imperative.

This sounds like an amazing idea. I'm going to include it, but I'd like a bit more of the reasoning behind it, if only so I can defend it (it's almost guarenteed to at least raise eyebrows) when you aren't here.

The removal of Canto could be given extra incentive if Sol had double the chance of activation and the enemies hit hard enough for the recovery to matter.

Why? What does it offer by making it available earlier?

Flexibility of options granted to foot units. It wouldn't hurt if the item also granted temporary +2 move to the foot unit equipped with it, further bridging the gap between mounted and foot units; of course, at the cost of the competition for it.

Why?

Her sword rank is a pain to build without AS.

What limits would you suggest?

Maybe 100 BEXP per character before each map, but enough BEXP to distribute evenly between a large cast of characters.

[Junkhead]

I wouldn't allow Knight Wards to be used by Cavaliers/Paladins.

[dondon151]

Increase enemy density so that your armours would actually see some combat while shoving.

increasing enemy density is almost always a bad idea because it exacerbates the gap between mounted units and archers + mages even more.

[Espinosa]

I don't mean making groups of enemies any more crowded than they already are at times, but every once in a while there are turns where nothing happens at all, so keeping the party busy, even with two enemies or whatever, could stir things up a bit.

[Junkhead]

I like that idea that can potentially put Knights to better use.

[Snowy_One]

Here is an idea.

Re prioritize enemy targeting to be as such: Targets with Provoke (can't be used by paladins), targets who will die, targets who can't counter, targets who can't kill you, targets whom you deal the most damage to, targets with Shade.

[PKL]

My List:

Enemies should get harder through offensive stats, not through defensive stats. Maniac Mode buffing defense way too much usually means your Ike, Oscar etc are hardpressed to do anything while titania just lolstomps everyone.

2. Titania would probably need a growth nerf somewhere but like, she's so badass and I'm so biased towards her that I don't want to mention it...even though I did.

3. Knight Ward does not give the Spd boost to mounts anymore.

4. 1-2 range not forgable.

5. Hardcoded BEXP limits for units ala drafts.

6. Bows have Axe MT. Triple effective damage. Shinon is autoleveled when recruited. Rolf is recruited at Level 10 with adjusted bases for his level and a bit more. Rolf's Bow should actually be like, good too. If there's less enemy density and they hit really hard instead of having huge Def, Archers tend to shine.

7. Wind Magic MT raised like hawk king said. Fire should be the strongest mag and Thunder nerfed to what Fire used to be.

So, it would ideally be Fire = strongest, Thunder = second strongest but can critical, Wind = less powerful but takes down fliers easier.

8. Light Magic buffed to make Rhys actually nice. They're too heavy.

9. Make all the Rex weapons more available.

10. Don't give the player so much freaking money to make their fliers have forges forever.

11. Ena and Nasir buffed to 1-2 range and actual base stats and less transformation time.

12. Swords need to have 1-2. Since the others aren't forgable anymore, it doesn't matter that they wouldn't be forgeable either.

13. And a lot of character changes but those should be discussed individually.

14. Probably a lot more.

[Snowy_One]

Maybe knives should function on a system of 'Every 10 hit after enemy AVO = 1 MT (can exceed 100 hit/10 MT)'? That way they can actually do something unique and give excess hit for units like Ilyana and Tormod a viable purpose beyond siege-tomeing?

[Refa]

3. Knight Ward does not give the Spd boost to mounts anymore.

Inconsistency is kind of dumb. IMO if you're going to nerf Knight Ward for mounts, you should just not allow them to use it.

4. 1-2 range not forgable.

On Hard, Javelins/Hand Axes aren't forgeable until Chapter 18. Are they really broken at that point?

6. Bows have Axe MT. Triple effective damage. Shinon is autoleveled when recruited. Rolf is recruited at Level 10 with adjusted bases for his level and a bit more. Rolf's Bow should actually be like, good too. If there's less enemy density and they hit really hard instead of having huge Def, Archers tend to shine.

Rolf being level 10 makes no sense...I think Rolf's Bow could use a buff though.

[PKL]

Inconsistency is kind of dumb. IMO if you're going to nerf Knight Ward for mounts, you should just not allow them to use it.

On Hard, Javelins/Hand Axes aren't forgeable until Chapter 18. Are they really broken at that point?

Rolf being level 10 makes no sense...I think Rolf's Bow could use a buff though.

Balance cares not for sense :P. I guess not allowing Knight Ward sounds ok. Forged Javelins/Hand Axes are pretty much the go-to weapon forever (except forged Silver for Petrine) after they become available. So yes, they're broken.

[General Banzai]

also careful what you buff this game is easy enough as is

[Hawk King]

Buffing the Rolf bow and giving it 3x multiplier lets him OHKO Ravens at a pretty low LV, possibly base LV depending on how much you buff the bows. Rolf is a little kid. He should be LV1.