Which FE do you you think was the most well-written?

[ZemZem]

yes i know. i overreacted in a very childish way. sorry

Don't worry about it, man. We all lose our cool at times.

I actually like the discussion that's going on here, and I'd like for it to continue, since a lot of cool points are being brought up.

[Refa]

Banzai's making me want to replay FE8 and actually pay attention to the story (nothing against FE8 in this regard, it's just that I've been kind of disinterested in the story aspects of FE for quite a while because I guess I've already seen them).

[Florete]

good, nobody wants you around anyway

Aizenberg's posts may have gone too far (as he has admitted), but this was unnecessary flamebait. Avoid it in the future.

As for the topic, it's hard to say. I definitely enjoyed RD's story more than any other, but I acknowledge that it wasn't written too well at times...to say the least.

[-Cynthia-]

I think the best villain in the series is Gharnef. Sure he's petty and the entire reason for his evilness is because of simple jealousy but goddamn it, he's just a great villain. A truly evil SOB that you just hate right from the beginning.

Really? All I ever got from Gharnef is that he got his panties in a twist because Gotoh named another guy his successor.

[RJWalker]

Really? All I ever got from Gharnef is that he got his panties in a twist because Gotoh named another guy his successor.

Pretty much but he's so deliciously evil because of such petty reasons that he's impossible to not enjoy.

[eclipse]

Really? All I ever got from Gharnef is that he got his panties in a twist because Gotoh named another guy his successor.

Hmm. . .feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. . .

IIRC, Gotoh mentioned something about Gharnef originally being a good guy, then being disappointed in a bad way when he wasn't named as successor, which led to a whole mess of things. I think that Merric/Ellerean/Wendell was meant to mirror that, but Ellerean had enough sense to realize that his master knew what he was talking about, and chose a different path from Gharnef.

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah...he probably wasn't much of a good guy to start with if his reaction to not getting accepted as successor is attempted world domination.

Edited November 16, 2013 by -Cynthia-

[Cymbalina's Revenge]

Yeah...he probably wasn't much of a good guy to start with if his reaction to not getting accepted as successor is attempted world domination.

And murdering the guy who was chosen as the successor. Can't forget about that.

I dunno. Gharnef's motivations are ridiculously petty but as a villain he has one of the best runs in the moment. The moment you realize Marth has accidentally done exactly what Gharnef wanted him to by taking out Camus, Michalis, and any other competent threat to Gharnef's own power? The way Gharnef "serves" Medeus but is keeping both the Falchion and Elice on hand as his own insurance policy?

Guys like Arvis and Travant come off more like tragic, failed heroes. Gharnef is a damn good out-and-out villain, IMO.

[Florete]

I read most of them not as an english major

@Aizenberg: haha what

I've read all of those people, but always as an English major...

Ahem. Anyway.

I agree. Tower of Guidance is where most of my beef lies, but your first point was one that always stuck in my craw in an unpleasant manner. All the sudden, Skrimir is totally cool with Micaiah's forces? Really? The line "No one doubts your gift, Micaiah." he says just made me go "oh wat."

I don't see what is wrong with that quote in context:

Micaiah

Not yet. But they're coming. I'm sure of it.

Skrimir

I can't smell troops or weapons. How can you be certain?

Micaiah

I don't know who they are or their exact numbers, but the enemy army is massive!

Skrimir

Hmm...

Micaiah

I know it sounds strange, but I swear it's true! You must believe me!

Skrimir

No one doubts your gift, Micaiah. I will not ignore the words of one who has spoken with the voice of a goddess.

It's not "Oh Micaiah! You are so amazing!" It's "Whoa, girl, calm down. I believe you."

I'd sooner have beef with the following sentence (voice of a goddess) because it makes Skrimir sound a lot more humble and less rough than he normally is.

Sothe actually attempts to point this kind of thing out before the teams are formed and Ike just brushes it aside. The only conflict we see is Naesala and Skrimir. This is fine, but what about the Daein/Begnion/Crimea conflict that was just happening before Ashera's judgment? Ya know?

What about the impending doom just brought upon all of them that now gives them a common enemy?

I don't see what's wrong with that. They face a common threat, so they decide to drop their respective quarrels, and concentrate on the task at hand (ie saving the people of the world from a goddess gone mad).

Yeah, like what NinjaMonkey said.

Although I can agree with Cynthia that it might have happened a bit too fast without enough tension, the Crimea/Laguz side of things had been trying to negotiate peace the whole time and Daein had been forced into the war against their will. It's not a surprise that they'd be willing to join forces now that they are able.

[General Banzai]

Another note on FERD: Ike and several other people already suspect that Daein is fighting against its will in the fights leading up to the end of Part 3. The transition to "oh hey time to team up to stomp ashera" isn't that abrupt, and quite acceptable given the circumstances (e.g. everyone turning to stone)

Banzai's making me want to replay FE8 and actually pay attention to the story (nothing against FE8 in this regard, it's just that I've been kind of disinterested in the story aspects of FE for quite a while because I guess I've already seen them).

A lot of my love for the story came actually when I started scrutinizing it closely in order to create a critique of FESS similar to my infamous critique of FE7

For starters it's a lot tighter and with a lot fewer plotholes, but there's much more to it than that, and I think it really has to do with the writing itself and the mood it conveys rather than simply a one-sentence summary of the plot. There's a real clear theme of corruption and decay that pervades every aspect of the game. Almost all of the human villains (even Riev, who was originally a Rausten priest) started out as more-or-less okay people, and then were twisted and contorted into various evil guises. I mean we see this AGAIN and AGAIN in this story. Lyon, Orson, Carlyle, Caellach, even Riev and Valter are all either hinted or outright claimed to have undergone this transformation. I think the mugs of all these characters, with their dark, sunken eyes and pasty complexions, only further emphasizes this, with a kind of contextual connection that these characters are in a sense becoming the revenants and maleficent forms of rotting flesh that are cropping up across the world. Hell, Lyon and Orson even have "good" mugs versus "bad" mugs to make this idea of transformation clear.

With that context in mind, Fomortiis, the deity of ultimate evil, actually fits in well as the final villain, and not just a shoehorned monstrous final boss like FE7's Fire Dragon. Fomortiis, as his connection with Lyon makes explicitly clear, IS the corrupting force that has more or less transformed all of the other villains into what they are. He's not simply a last minute appearance without characterization but the entropic aura that has pervaded the conflict from its very onset, an aura found not just in the story itself but the graphics (using a much more sedated color scheme than the bright pastels of FE6 and FE7) and the music (an often mellow and vaguely threatening mix of atmospheric tracks).

Ephraim and Eirika also drive this point home. People seem to blast on them for being boring lords, but I feel they have a lot more character than most people give them credit. The story's liberal use of flashbacks presents them as having been in the past the kind of joking, kidding teenagers that we saw in FE7, engaging in somewhat goofy brother-sister repartee or even making cracks on Eirika being flatchested (or, in the English version, "skinny"). This type of characterization, which I found so jarring in FE7 when Hector and Lyn would derp around seconds before or after a battle, contrasts with how we see Eirika and Ephraim in the present. Eirika drifts through the story in a kind of melancholic haze, often completely taken aback by the behavior of her enemies and in some cases even her allies. Ephraim, meanwhile, is even more nuanced. We first see him engaging in a gungho charge on Renvall, but with the implication that his bravado is masking the fact that the charge is meant to be a suicide charge to buy Fado and Eirika time in Renais. In his route, meanwhile, he is constantly torn between his obligations as a soldier and his obligations as a leader, which leads him into a quite different relationship with Seth than the one his sister has. (For Eirika, Seth is Jeigan-protector; for Ephraim, he is Oifaye-Morodof). The differences between the two main characters is paralleled in the types of supporting characters that play major roles in their respective routes. Eirika is more easily crowded out by L'Arachel and especially Innes, the latter of which seems to be the one making decisions for the army for much of Ch 11-14, while Ephraim plays pretty much a solo game with only Seth to butt in and tell him how he's doing everything wrong. I mean, we're not seeing Shakespeare-level character here, but there's more to the story of these characters than just "the people who have to keep moving forward," which is what Marth, Sigurd, Roy, and even to an extent Leif are.

[-Cynthia-]

The whole blood pact thing isn't even discussed post petrification though. I don't mind them joining forces, but Sothe mentioning it once and Ike saying "no we need to work together" seems rather insufficient given what had happened the past few chapters. One would think there would be a bit more tension between the Daein forces and everyone else after the setting people on fire incident and all the recent battles.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah...he probably wasn't much of a good guy to start with if his reaction to not getting accepted as successor is attempted world domination.

The game explains it kind of by saying that Imhulu and the Dark Orb corrupted his soul

it's kind of lame but it's better than nothing

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

I'm pretty sure they're the same person, Ayra just cut her hair and changed her name, which is like the anime equivalent of character development or something.

The same goes for Nanna and Lachesis, except in that case Lachesis bought a feather too. I'm sure there are other examples, but I'm too lazy to point them out.

FE4 was really lazy when it came to face portraits...

STOOPID ROOFA YOU JUST CAN'T FORGOT THAT PALLETE SWAP

Before:

After:

Edited November 17, 2013 by Eradicator Boner

[RJWalker]

STOOPID ROOFA YOU JUST CAN'T FORGOT THAT PALLETE SWAP

Before:

After:

Oh god why didn't I ever notice that before?

[Loki Laufeyson]

The whole blood pact thing isn't even discussed post petrification though. I don't mind them joining forces, but Sothe mentioning it once and Ike saying "no we need to work together" seems rather insufficient given what had happened the past few chapters. One would think there would be a bit more tension between the Daein forces and everyone else after the setting people on fire incident and all the recent battles.

Its mentioned twice. But very briefly. If you have Pelleas on your team, i think he mentions it to Tauroneo in 4-5. But hes only talking about how hes almost glad that the petrification happened to halt the Blood Pact's progress. The other time is when Micaiah and Sothe finally destroy it. While yes, Ike and co. knew Daein was fighting against their will, theres no discussion that settles the matter except "everyones a statue..."

[Jotari]

Honestly the story of Sacred Stones just didn't enthrall me. There was nothing of interest that I could honestly latch onto. While the characters are memorable to a certain extent the only ones I actually liked to any great extent were Caellach and Lyon. Morva was thoroughly under used too having all of nine seconds of screen time. Everything in the story seemed really predictable and overall the plot had no great aspirations. Grado comes off as the least competent evil empire in the series (which actually makes sense considering who's running it) to the extent that I was actually surprised I'd reached the end of the game by the time I did. I was just expecting more. I get what people are saying about the side characters having actual importance and I can see how the villains can be well liked but just personally when I want to play a Fire Emblem story I prefer it to be more about the actual plot of the conflict rather than zombie brides and teen angst. Genealogy of The Holy War on the other hand was entirely about the plot of conflict with all the murders and betrayals it has. It's seriously like the Game of Thrones of Fire Emblem. It might not develop many of its characters very much (which as people pointed out the times were against it in that regard as was the basic premise of Fire Emblem which heavily infringes on the importance side characters can have) but it certainly used them very well to develop the conflict. Now I know this thread isn't about the basic plot, it's about the writing but in my honest opinion I feel if The Sacred Stones really had such fantastic writing I wouldn't have been as bored by it as I was regardless of what was actually happening.

(The Sacred Stones also used generic monsters for bosses and had you re-fighting bosses which I don't like).

[Axie]

but it certainly used them very well to develop the conflict.

Did it even? Sigurd isn't even related to the actual developments of 1st Gen until Chapter 3 and only becomes directly involved in Chapter 5. And as good as I find 2nd Gen to be, the conflict it presents is quite static outside of Thracia.

I feel bad that I have to be harsh on FE4, which I do enjoy quite a bit, but I feel people are way more willing to forgive its flaws then they are willing to forgive for other FEs. I chalk it up to what I said about the writing focusing in flashy emotional moments over subtle and complex developments; people feel impressed and connected to it all and (mostly) don't really wonder why. That is good, of course, but I don't see that as enough to justify it as the best writing in FE. It's like FE4 is the action movie of Fire Emblem, if you will.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Axie

[Baldrick]

If anything, I think FE10 is the action movie of FE. It's much the same focus, and is a lot more flashy in terms in graphics. Maybe Fe4 would take over if it was remade on a modern console.

[Celice]

Did it even? Sigurd isn't even related to the actual developments of 1st Gen until Chapter 3 and only becomes directly involved in Chapter 5. And as good as I find 2nd Gen to be, the conflict it presents is quite static outside of Thracia.

I feel bad that I have to be harsh on FE4, which I do enjoy quite a bit, but I feel people are way more willing to forgive its flaws then they are willing to forgive for other FEs. I chalk it up to what I said about the writing focusing in flashy emotional moments over subtle and complex developments; people feel impressed and connected to it all and (mostly) don't really wonder why. That is good, of course, but I don't see that as enough to justify it as the best writing in FE. It's like FE4 is the action movie of Fire Emblem, if you will.

I actually appreciate FE4 for its distanced, omniscient narrative. It both helped convey the helplessness of the events which would transpire, as well as suggesting that there was already an end in sight. No one actor on the stage was more important than the other, as it was more that the entire continent would be engulfed by Manfroy's meddling.

I can also appreciate the boy-scout, follow-the-leader narrative of FE7, where the story telling is much more direct and tethered to its characters. Each are worth something, and are also told in different styles. Comparing the two is a little unnecessary, as each set out to accomplish something in different ways. Neither faults the other because of their own execution of ideas.

[General Banzai]

FE4 reads like a historical document

I mean this is obviously the intention but as far as compelling stories go that's way down on the spectrum

[Axie]

I actually appreciate FE4 for its distanced, omniscient narrative. It both helped convey the helplessness of the events which would transpire, as well as suggesting that there was already an end in sight. No one actor on the stage was more important than the other, as it was more that the entire continent would be engulfed by Manfroy's meddling.

I can also appreciate the boy-scout, follow-the-leader narrative of FE7, where the story telling is much more direct and tethered to its characters. Each are worth something, and are also told in different styles. Comparing the two is a little unnecessary, as each set out to accomplish something in different ways. Neither faults the other because of their own execution of ideas.

I definitely feel like each different style of storytelling has its own merits, and any problems with FE4's writing is not because of that but because of its execution.

I agree that most of the time FE4 has a distanced narrative, specially in 1st Gen, but at the same time it wants us to really care about the characters, by the way of marriages, love conversations, and the like. However, FE4 (specially in 1st Gen) never really puts those two things together well. For example, in Chapter 3, we are watching Sigurd accidentally take over all of Agustria very impersonally and then boom, Eldigan is killed as a traitor and Deirdre is captured and it becomes all about your characters and their feelings, but that doesn't last long for actual development to occur, so the emotional part falls flat (in this example, I think Eldigan deserved better development in all aspects).

Like I said, it plays out like an action movie, with similar problems in the storytelling. With that said, action movies can be really fun and so is FE4 (2nd Gen more so than 1st Gen to me). It all comes down to taste - all the development in the world is good for nothing if you, for any reason, didn't like it, and vice-versa.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Axie

[Rehab]

Exactly. fe4 is the farthest thing from an action movie I can think of, exactly because it's distanced from the characters. It's a collection of action snapshots, rather than a single linear account, sure, but that doesn't mean there's no connection between the stories-it's not like the meat required to understand the world isn't all right there in the villages, and there's an explanation for everything that anybody should be able to logically follow, and that makes for a coherent picture by the end of chapter 3 at the latest.

Every chapter through 3 in the first gen has somebody being somehow manipulated by the Lopt sect/Manfloy into goading (or, depending on one's interpretation of his character, if one can be bothered to come up with one, forcing) Sigurd to react in a way that tends to leave Grandbell with more territory. Every time Sigurd tries to get through to the throne that he didn't actually intend to keep the lands that now have no rulers who haven't thrown themselves on his sword, he gets either ignored or told to hang on.

I mean, even though they don't really come out and says it, the whole first gen is blatantly about feudal lords within Grandbell and a persecuted religious minority trying to manufacture a reason to go to war for a power grab, and the latter manipulating the relevant regional powers to be all too happy to oblige to fight Grandbell on unfavorable terms.

If you didn't get emotionally invested in Sigurd going "ugh why is trying to communicate with the throne like talking to a stone wall, I don't even want to be here nobody wants me here" and then having to go occupy occupy more of "here," you're free to not like it but "objectively bad" is pushing it and "borderline meritless" is preposterous.

E: Geez, at least you guys finally admitted there's some kind of story contained within the game damn

[Axie]

Nobody except Banzai ever said any of those things though.

[Jotari]

Did it even? Sigurd isn't even related to the actual developments of 1st Gen until Chapter 3 and only becomes directly involved in Chapter 5. And as good as I find 2nd Gen to be, the conflict it presents is quite static outside of Thracia.

I feel bad that I have to be harsh on FE4, which I do enjoy quite a bit, but I feel people are way more willing to forgive its flaws then they are willing to forgive for other FEs. I chalk it up to what I said about the writing focusing in flashy emotional moments over subtle and complex developments; people feel impressed and connected to it all and (mostly) don't really wonder why. That is good, of course, but I don't see that as enough to justify it as the best writing in FE. It's like FE4 is the action movie of Fire Emblem, if you will.

Sigurd as a character might not contribute much but as a plot device he does. What he does prior to getting betrayed in Chapter 3, accidentally invading two countries and harboring the prince of an enemy nation, is what sets it up so that he can be betrayed in such an effective (and beneficial way). The involvement in the plot didn't just come out of nowhere, what Sigurd did built up to it.

Sigurd as the person he is doesn't contribute much, but Sigurd, as the warrior son of a lord makes his fair contribution to the plot. A lot of things are happening around the entire world in Fe4 first gen, Sigurd's just happens to be the one we follow.

Edited November 17, 2013 by Jotari

[Axie]

Yes but this thread is about the writing and my point was that the writing in FE4 doesn't really bring the plot home sometimes, specially in 1st Gen, because it tries to show the scope of the story and the emotions of big moments while losing out on complexity of character.

In the context of the plot, Sigurd conquering stuff while Manfroy does his thing makes sense. But as the writing put it, it meant four chapters of Sigurd and the others not actually developing (despite marrying another important character even) while we are informed things may or may not be happening in Grandbell. I like the plot of it but it stands out to me as something that needed better writing than it got.