Unnamed Mafia (anon) - Game Over

[Estelle]

Yeah but Iketani was a new player. We have no reason to suspect NARS was as well (plus it was totally Rapier, I mean come on).

[Rain Nijika]

So Eiki currently suspects every single plausible lynch target.

A lot of her suspicions are based on posts from Early Day 1 of all things. I dunno why people still care about me making a vote without explaining it in RVS. It's something for people to react to because it's "weird". Fluffy's vote is similarly meaningless at this stage of the game.

Additionally, all of her non-ED1-related content contains a lot of reportery snippets and questions rather than "X is scum because Y". As an example, we know Dragonite dropped his Grill vote, why is Dragonite scummy for this and why is the new content not worth addressing? Furthermore I can't tell why she thinks Fluffy is the best lynch compared to everybody else and in the end it just looks like she's just trying to leave her options open. Claim doesn't affect my read one way or the other.

There are eight players alive, and this is a nine-player game. This isn't a 16-player game where it's easier to forget about players who drop under the radar or post less. Plausible lynch targets become plausible lynch targets because they do things that are scummy. I am not scum. I'm reading Reinbach, Hot Wheels, and Beethoven as town. That leaves everyone else I have issues with. I fail to see the problem with this.

Also, D1 is an important part of the game. A part that my player was entirely absent for. Just because I subbed in halfway during D2 doesn't mean I can't form reads that are based on D1. There isn't that much D2 content either, it's not even two pages yet.

I hate writing long posts and just wanted to post something already. Dragonite dropping Grillmaster and voting Fluffy is bad because it feels like a 180-degree turn in thoughts that doesn't seem at all explained. Again, the whole "looking for scum on Fluffy's wagon" is weird and strikes me as scummy because he seemed to think that Fluffy was scum himself. The way he drops Grillmaster is bad because in his previous post he says his suspicion hasn't abated and explains why. But then ... suddenly you have no case on him and you're going to stop pretending like you had one? Why the suddenly change in your reads? He goes from saying he's scum to defending him one post after another. Everything else he had to say about existing players was "can't comment much, they look okay". In other words, his only real suspicion is now Fluffy.

Also, if you read back at my lynch priorities, I said that Dragonite and Fluffy Platypus were EQUAL lynch priorities. My vote would have put Dragonite at L-1, and after a ... certain recent game where every single day phase got cut short because of absolutely stupid reasons I am more paranoid than ever about putting anyone at L-1 before deadline draws near. Hence the vote on Fluffy.

(Something that I completely neglected to mention in my opening post regarding Fluffy, the way he arbitrarily calls Hot Wheels the most likely to be Grillmaster's scum buddy is random and just does not make sense, especially when he says "the only other option is Dragonite and you wanted to bus him". Just ... what?)

basically if the claim was made ED1 I could see it being town, but when we have a flipped Miller Tracker and a second Miller claim it could just as easily be scum claiming something crazy to try and seem townie. Also consider that the original player didn't claim it when there's no positive utility to the role.

I cannot answer for my predecessor. I have no idea why he didn't claim it. Then again, he never did anything in the first place. However, I am curious as to your explanation as to why you think I would claim tailor if I were scum. If I am scum tailor, I would have no reason to out this in the first place. Tailor's a net benefit to scum and better off hidden. (Remember Mystery mafia and how much damage it caused there?) If I'm scum but not tailor, well, compulsive tailor is still a really weird role to claim and I'd be drawing unwanted attention to myself with the claim.

[Marisa Kirisame]

Ugh, I'm re-reading the cases now, and I'm not sure about Grill anymore. I mean, I still have a gut scumread on him, but... I'm not sure if he's the best lynch option.

Dragonite's not really helping his case today. The sudden switch from "oh Grill's probably scum" to "oh Grill's town and Fluffy's obvscum" is stupid and contrived, and reeks of desperation to force a mislynch.

With that in mind, ##Unvote and ##Vote: Dragonite

I'm still thinking Grill's scum, but I'd rather go with Dragonite at this point. He's waffling, and I don't like it.

[All Might]

>_> that looks like a desperation wagonhop by scum to me. not sure if dragonite/fluffy could be scumbuddies either because I don't think grillmaster was impossible to mislynch in that case. urgh. gonna sleep on which of the two I think is more likely to be scum.

hmm still not sure if eiki would actually pull that gambit, but I don't really think that last post by her really answered the main point that insane was making. yeah he said stuff about nars not claiming and eiki having a bunch of suspicions, but to me the main point was more that her scumhunting felt reporterish and just pointed at suboptimal play or weird things rather than actually looking for scum intent. I don't really think she made an attempt to address that? also the point wasn't having a bunch of suspicions as much as those suspicions conveniently being on all the current major wagons.

also as a heads up I won't be there for phase end at all.

[Rain Nijika]

hmm still not sure if eiki would actually pull that gambit, but I don't really think that last post by her really answered the main point that insane was making. yeah he said stuff about nars not claiming and eiki having a bunch of suspicions, but to me the main point was more that her scumhunting felt reporterish and just pointed at suboptimal play or weird things rather than actually looking for scum intent. I don't really think she made an attempt to address that? also the point wasn't having a bunch of suspicions as much as those suspicions conveniently being on all the current major wagons.

I sort of have an idea of what "reporterish" scumhunting might be, and I'll try to rectify that in future posts. As for pointing out suboptimal play or "weird things", I point these things out because I DO feel that there is scum intent in them. I mean, townies don't play perfectly and do things that seem scummy from a certain perspective, but I vote things that I see a legitimate scum intent in. I was in a bit of a hurry when I put up that first post, so if there's anything specific you would like me to address in detail point it out and I will do so.

As for my suspicions conveniently being on the current major wagons, well, what can I do if that is what my suspicions truly are?

[Aizen]

I also won't be around for phase end. I'll be around in 12-14 hours and then only intermittently over the weekend.

I don't find it scummy of Eiki to only have scumreads on the major wagons, as FMPOV only Dragonite and Fluffy have done truly scummy things (disregarding my rolespec on Hot Wheels).

Someone asked me why I thought Fluffy was being scummier than Dragonite. Dragonite's one post this phase ends in dropping his case on me, I guess that probably earned him more points than it should have in my ledger. I didn't read the way he dropped it as scummy, although I can certainly see how it would be taken that way--just got a town vibe from that bit, I guess. Looking back though, the rest of the post is pretty bad, and the conciliatory tone might be scum attempting a "band-aid" post and a fresh start. (Basically, I'm reconsidering the scumminess of Dragonite's post and seeing it as more scummy.)

With Fluffy, though, his content consisted of (rolespec + "I don't like Grillmaster's rolespec"), voting me, a nonsensical read on my interaction with Dragonite, and a sudden votehop, above. Even without the last part (which hadn't happened yet), Fluffy was posting a mostly-nonsense case on me and pretty much nothing else.

I also don't like the votehop to Dragonite. Making up thin reasons to justify your vote like that, seems scummy to me.

Fluffy and Dragonite are today's clear consolidation targets. Both of you should consider claiming, especially if you're not going to be around for phase end and especially Dragonite.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

it's not really scummy because he's looking for associative reads; it's scummy because it's just padding his post to look good when the only real content in that first post was the paragraph at the beginning on fluffy and then the paragraph at the end on grillmaster.

I'm getting an odd feeling of deja vu, have we had this chat before? Regardless, it's clear to me that you're misunderstanding my point, although you did well enough on the conclusion. My point was that speculating on associative reads for someone he wasn't even planning on lynching is ultimately pointless, as they wouldn't be able to come into play until quite a while later, by which time the original reads may have become obsolete.

I don't find it scummy of Eiki to only have scumreads on the major wagons, as FMPOV only Dragonite and Fluffy have done truly scummy things (disregarding my rolespec on Hot Wheels).

I concur. Rather than just taking a superficial look at things (Eiki only has scumreads on the major wagons), one must look deeper to see if there is any scum intent there (such as if he/she voted them solely because they are major wagons). For my part, I'm not particularly bothered by his/her lynch priority.

I also don't like the votehop to Dragonite. Making up thin reasons to justify your vote like that, seems scummy to me.

Fluffy and Dragonite are today's clear consolidation targets. Both of you should consider claiming, especially if you're not going to be around for phase end and especially Dragonite.

If Fluffy and Dragonite are the only consolidation targets, then surely it makes logical sense for Fluffy to vote Dragonite? The votehop is a nulltell to me, nothing more, nothing less.

[Shiki Ryougi]

Since it's clear that my time won't allow me for another content post, I'm just gonna claim now.

I'm Vanilla, so if Fluffy has a better role than me, you guys are better off lynching me.

I'll get more read IF I get to N2 since I won't be here till phase end (tough schedule, I know)

[Grace]

mood music

I am also sleeping about now, same rules apply for hammer etc.

[Aizen]

Account problems, BBM?

If Fluffy and Dragonite are the only consolidation targets, then surely it makes logical sense for Fluffy to vote Dragonite? The votehop is a nulltell to me, nothing more, nothing less.

My vote on Iketani at the end of D1 should have been a nulltell; I figured he was going to vote me to make me his counterwagon and I wasn't going to be around after that, so I voted him out of self-preservation, and that's exactly what I said when I voted him. Fluffy could have used that logic in voting Dragonite, but he didn't--instead, he made up flimsy arguments to legitimize his vote. It seemed scummy.

[eclipse]

Game mods and affected user: Check your PMs.

[Cú Chulainn]

Catching up now. Owners put me in the kennel for a bit, whereupon I wrote lovely melodies. Had to finish that new opera.

[Cú Chulainn]

So would you also call it "the epitome of lazy and uninspired scumhunting" to start the day voting for confirmed or near-confirmed scum and not move your vote?

I don't even get how you came upon this gem. But for the sake of answer, yes, I would. If a Cop confirms a scum, then dies in the night, anyone who just parks a vote there and does nothing for the rest of the Day is lazy. The point is moot since there are no confirmed nor near-confirmed scum on the table right now.

Your sudden declaration that FP is scummier than Dragonite "this phase" needs clarification. What exactly makes FP worse than Dragonite for you?

Hot Wheels, how exactly does Dragonite sheep Grillmaster? Voting the same guy doesn't constitute sheeping to their case. (And Dragonite, what exactly is your case on Fluffy?)

Insane's #170 has my hairs on end.

##Unvote

##Vote: Insane Techniques

While I still maintain that Grillmaster has been lazy about his scumhunting and hasn't done much to help Town (and fishing for what happened during the night certainly doesn't help!), IT makes a tremendous exaggeration of Shiki's post. Discrediting it based on "it's just reportery" is defamation of the worst kind, considering there are a lot of opinions in Shiki's post. I disagree with the method of picking at one specific trait of a post and then ignoring everything surrounding it. Saying it's suspicious that Shiki suspects all suspicious people is like... I have no words for that. Just know that it reads Mozart-levels of crazy.

Fluffy voting Dragonite isn't problematic in my eyes: His observation that Dragonite makes a heel-face-turn and changes directions completely is valid, and although I contest that Dragonite hasn't exactly sheeped Grillmaster, he does borrow the argument of "lining up lynches," which I don't actually follow.

Grillmaster, "today's consolidation targets" aren't set in stone. If it must be done, we will lynch someone else who is scummiest. There's no need to try and get Town to look only at two, because that's at the very best Town being narrow in scope, and at the very worst Scum securing that the mislynch will fall between those two.

And I'm caught up. Regarding Dragonite VS Fluffy: I'm not sure. Both have deplorable levels of content, so I'll read them closely now and see if I agree to a lynch on one or both.

[Cú Chulainn]

EBWOP: I should probably note I take issue with more of IT's posts than just that one. A succinct account would be:

- On Day 1 he voted Grillmaster for "laziness," but throughout the day never makes a real point of pushing Grillmaster hard. If by his own admission that is scummy, he fits the bill.

- During Night 1 he switches from "Grillmaster is probably scum trying to line up lynches after Iketani," to "Grillmaster is Town for putting the most effort." Just posting a lot doesn't mean it's "a lot of effort," and when that effort consists of arguing we should lynch the miller for claiming his role, then the content is bad besides.

- Weird argument about Shiki's claimed role and the previous user of the slot's actions. This is weird and scummy because the previous user decided to flip everyone the big middle finger and not play; Using that as a springboard to attack someone is absurd because it is indefensible and the simple explanation is that NARS was flipping everyone the middle finger and just did not do anything at all.

Basically, Insane Techniques is scum because his cases have been absurd. Day 1 was a votepark on Grillmaster for most of the day until hopping on the Iketani bandwagon, Day 2 is voteparking on Dragonite until absurdvoting Shiki. As he says himself:

Town wants to find and push scum, not just have a vote down for the sake of having a vote down.

And I have yet to see him do actual pushing. His vote on Dragonite is "these are my reasons," and then he just sits there with it. I've not seen him actually push Dragonite.

[Aizen]

I have a strong townread on IT fwiw

anyway sorry, I have like a minute to post before being gone for hours/until phase end.

My point about lazy was that keeping your vote on confirmed scum isn't a bad thing. Anyway, as was pointed out, I didn't restrict my scumhunting to HW.

I already clarified what made Fluffy's content this phase worse than Dragonite's this phase.

Consolidation targets: FMPOV I'm town and nobody has a case on me that anybody else has found convincing, and the only other people with >1 vote are those two, so yeah I'd say they're the consolidation targets.

[Rain Nijika]

Goodness, work kept me busy far later than I had expected. But nevertheless, I should be here for the rest of phase end.

Grillmaster, if you don't mind, could you elaborate why you have a strong townread on IT? While you did say you were feeling better about IT than you were on D1, I would like to know what exactly turned your opinion on him.

A quick look back at Dragonite and Fluffy Platypus' content shows an interesting set of interaction between the three of them, but most the "interesting" parts are initiated by Dragonite and FP. FP's sudden switch to Dragonite strikes me as weird. Reinbach, I can see your point about FP switching to Dragonite if they're the only two lynch possibilities, but I don't like how he goes "I still have a gut scumread on Grillmaster but don't think he's the best lynch for today," and "still think Grill's scum but feel better about Dragonite". It looks like he's giving himself an "opening" to just place a vote on Grillmaster again next phase, but at the same time trying to justify getting off a wagon that currently looks unfavorable.

Dragonite's 180 on Grillmaster is still suspicious because he goes from giving reasons why he thinks Grill is scum to dropping and even defending him NEXT POST. I really wish he would have explained why he was "pretending to have a case" on Grillmaster and what made him decide to just drop the suspicions the way he did.

[charlie_]

Votals:

Dragonite (3): Hot Wheels, Schtolteheim Reinbach III, Fluffy Platypus

Fluffy Platypus (3): Dragonite, The Grillmaster, Eiki Shiki

Eiki Shiki (1): Insane Techniques

Insane Techniques (1): Beethoven

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. You have 2 hours and 4 minutes.

[charlie_]

doubleposting votals op

Edited November 22, 2013 by SB.

[Cú Chulainn]

2 hours to do these reads? It reminds me of cramming. And I do that every semester.

Hilarious observation:

- Both Fluffy and Dragonite lurked (intentionally?) through the first part of Day 1.

- Both Fluffy and Dragonite's first real content post included a wall of reads!

- Both Fluffy and Dragonite fingered Grillmaster as scum!

- They also both don't want to lynch the other in that post.

It's like the same player is occupying two player slots!

So for Dragonite there's little content (lol), and what he has is a lot of generic reads on a bunch of people. And when I say generic reads, I mean most of it is "lol I dunno." I remember someone posting something like, "Dragonite is padding posts," and I agree by this point. The sudden switch after Night 1 from "Grillmaster the scum" to "lol I don't even have a case on him" means either Night 1 brought about great relevations, or Dragonite had a slip of the tongue when he said he was "pretending to have a case on Grillmaster."

Who pretends to have cases, again? That's right: It's scum.

I feel considerably better about Fluffy, who like Dragonite drops his case on Grillmaster, but makes up for it by actually explaining why he votes Dragonite and making an Original Observation. (For reference sake: Dragonite quips that Fluffy's suspicion of Grillmaster is nonsensical and highlights logic used for scumbuddies, but never really points out why it is scummy, or that it is scummy, just weird.)

So I'd vote Dragonite over Fluffy.

##Unvote

##Vote: Dragonite

That's L-1, by the way. You may wish to review our time before you let the dogs out, woof, woof.

[Rain Nijika]

As I stated, I am fine with lynching either FP or Dragonite and do not object to Dragonite being lynched today. But I am not going to hammer early, and will be around at phase end to switch my vote if no one else shows up and has anything to say.

[Nemu Kurotsuchi]

2 hours to do these reads? It reminds me of cramming. And I do that every semester.

You're not fooling me, dogs can't go to school.

Regardless of Beethoven's supposed schooling, my thoughts on the recent developments are as follows;

-The mutt brings up some good points in regards to IT, as I wasn't really seeing the scum intent in Shiki's posts. Honestly, previously I had a townread on him as well (with my only issues about him being his RVS vote, which is relatively minor in the long run), so I will have to check his ISO and reconcile my thoughts accordingly.

-Considering who I am voting for, it should be obvious as to what my personal feelings are in regards to who I would rather lynch between Dredgeonyx and Froofy Platepuss.

[Estelle]

Also, D1 is an important part of the game. A part that my player was entirely absent for. Just because I subbed in halfway during D2 doesn't mean I can't form reads that are based on D1. There isn't that much D2 content either, it's not even two pages yet.

ED1 posts are ED1 posts. People do funny shit to get the game started. This is what I was doing and I assume Fluffy was doing the same thing. You can't seriously place more value in the intent of those posts than the intent of posts revolving around or reacting to the D1 wagon (well you can, but it's inefficient scumhunting when you have more to work with).

While I still maintain that Grillmaster has been lazy about his scumhunting and hasn't done much to help Town (and fishing for what happened during the night certainly doesn't help!), IT makes a tremendous exaggeration of Shiki's post. Discrediting it based on "it's just reportery" is defamation of the worst kind, considering there are a lot of opinions in Shiki's post. I disagree with the method of picking at one specific trait of a post and then ignoring everything surrounding it. Saying it's suspicious that Shiki suspects all suspicious people is like... I have no words for that. Just know that it reads Mozart-levels of crazy.

Yes there are opinions, but a lot of the points they're grounded in is shaky as hell. Shiki is scummy because she set herself up to suspect every lynch target so she can vote whoever she wants with no priorities between then. Her stance is still just "I'm okay with both these lynches" which isn't passionate scumhunting. Obviously FP and Dragonite aren't buddies, so town should be making an effort to figure out which one is the scum if both are suspicious. You're nitpicking at the small points in my case and ignoring why I actually think Shiki is scummy. (This should answer Shiki's response to my post as well.)

- On Day 1 he voted Grillmaster for "laziness," but throughout the day never makes a real point of pushing Grillmaster hard. If by his own admission that is scummy, he fits the bill.

Not really. I didn't HARD PUSH him but it's not like I didn't obviously want him lynched if you read my posts without "I need to get dirt on this guy" in mind. I was talking about the guy I was voting, what more do you actually want? Also note that you at first had a vote on somebody for earlygame reasons and kept it down while talking about other people before your voteswitch too. I don't see how you can actually fault me for this.

- During Night 1 he switches from "Grillmaster is probably scum trying to line up lynches after Iketani," to "Grillmaster is Town for putting the most effort." Just posting a lot doesn't mean it's "a lot of effort," and when that effort consists of arguing we should lynch the miller for claiming his role, then the content is bad besides.

Surprise, you can find somebody scummy, re-read their posts and then decide you were wrong about them. My townreads tend to be gut-based so "more effort" might not be the best explanation but there's nothing inherently scummy about this waffle without Grill's flip SO what am I expected to say here??

- Weird argument about Shiki's claimed role and the previous user of the slot's actions. This is weird and scummy because the previous user decided to flip everyone the big middle finger and not play; Using that as a springboard to attack someone is absurd because it is indefensible and the simple explanation is that NARS was flipping everyone the middle finger and just did not do anything at all.

This was not an argument about why Shiki is scum, it's about why her claim doesn't mean anything. It's also not scummy.

Not pushing Dragonite is because I haven't been posting. If I had a bunch of posts talking about other people between switching to Shiki then yeah... I'll concede that this is my fault though because I've been dedicating time to stuff other than mafia (probably going to continue that today but I'll be around for deadline). Also, I wasn't as confident about the Dragonite read as I was about Grillmaster D1; after Iketani flipped town I sort of went "fuck" and didn't feel too strongly about anything.

Overall though this is a shitty, contrived case that tries to rationalize me as being scum by painting my arguments as "bad" rather than talking about the intent behind them. Like... I understand the issue with me not pushing Dragonite too hard but generally it's like you just wanted to find a bunch of dirt on me.

##Unvote

##Vote: Fluffy Platypus (L-1)

I would've expected scum!Dragonite to hold out to the last minute to see if the wagon on him would die down, then claim Cop for either deadline panic or a counterclaim. I feel like I need to step back and take another look at the game right now, Reinbach and Beethoven have been off my radar most of the game but there's not much objectively townie about them. Shiki is still #1 scum though.

[Grace]

There's about an hour left in the phase. I won't be around, but if hammer occurs SB will take care of it (hopefully). Hammer still needs to be reached before phase naturally ends, should neither host be around.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Manix

[Estelle]

##Unvote

Actually, I missed the implication that Dragonite's early claim was due to his schedule. Which means it doesn't mean anything.

I'm OK hammering this.

[Rain Nijika]

ED1 posts are ED1 posts. People do funny shit to get the game started. This is what I was doing and I assume Fluffy was doing the same thing. You can't seriously place more value in the intent of those posts than the intent of posts revolving around or reacting to the D1 wagon (well you can, but it's inefficient scumhunting when you have more to work with).

While it's true that "people do funny shit to get the game started", some people will do those "funny things" to get legitimate suspicions on people and then just try to pass it off as "RVS", and it's easier to dismiss things that happen when the game is starting to break out of RVS as "loearlyD1reasons". Has it once occurred to you that maybe, even though I take issue with some of those early posts, I do not like what the players have continued to do and that I am not harping JUST on the ED1 posts alone? Because I HAVE addressed non-ED1 stuff as well.

Also, you can't make assumptions about what Fluffy was trying to do. You are not him. And my point still stands that after their vote on Iketani, they disappeared until before deadline, when Iketani had dug himself into enough of a hole with his responses and other people had already harped on Iketani, to actually respond to anything he said. And then concludes by calling everyone else but Grillmaster and inactive NARS "leaning town". I am NOT just harping on Fluffy for his ED1, but his lackluster D1 and his D2 has not been any good either.

Yes there are opinions, but a lot of the points they're grounded in is shaky as hell. Shiki is scummy because she set herself up to suspect every lynch target so she can vote whoever she wants with no priorities between then. Her stance is still just "I'm okay with both these lynches" which isn't passionate scumhunting. Obviously FP and Dragonite aren't buddies, so town should be making an effort to figure out which one is the scum if both are suspicious. You're nitpicking at the small points in my case and ignoring why I actually think Shiki is scummy. (This should answer Shiki's response to my post as well.)

You are still kind of lying about how I had "no priorities" between any of my lynch targets. And just because I am saying "I'm okay with both of these lynches", that doesn't mean I'm being dispassionate. I am at the point where I am seriously at a loss for which of Fluffy or Dragonite I personally feel is "worse", because they're both bad, but I do want one of the two to be lynched before any other player. And how are FP and Dragonite "obviously not buddies", by the way, because it really isn't that obvious to me. We also had a game not that long ago where ALL the scum essentially bussed one another the entire game, and that was something that was certainly not obvious.