The state of the community

[dondon151]

But the question implies, "Why do you matter? Are you important enough to warrant working with? Is this project just going to be dumped?"

see here's the problem with complaining about this

you haven't answered that question

and literally the only impetus that drives investments is the possibility that someone will get more out of something than what he put into it

I was actually puzzled why nobody offered to help DH_Ninja, of all people, one of the guys who worked on Sacred Contentions and a couple other big hacks.

i'm genuinely puzzled as to why you are puzzled. the explanation sounds extremely simple to me.

Edited November 22, 2013 by dondon151

[DH_Ninja]

see here's the problem with complaining about this

you haven't answered that question

and literally the only impetus that drives investments is the possibility that someone will get more out of something than what he put into it

i'm genuinely puzzled as to why you are puzzled. the explanation sounds extremely simple to me.

Why should I have to answer those questions? I have an idea and I'm offering money, which is more than what most people offer, to see something get done. I am asking for help. You should not demand anything to be shown and even then I'd gladly share it. It would be like me asking you about why your criticism matters? Who are you and what makes you qualified to tell me to answer these things?

But if you want an answer I think I've built a small reputation for myself where people can see my name and maybe have a sense that I am reliable with these things. I have a few projects out there that I was involved in. Once again, I have something there that most people making these sorts of topics don't have. (edit)

Edited November 22, 2013 by DH_Ninja

[dondon151]

Why should I have to answer those questions? I have an idea and I'm offering money, which is more than what most people offer, to see something get done. I am asking for help. You should not demand anything to be shown and even then I'd gladly share it. It would be like me asking you about why your criticism matters? Who are you and what makes you qualified to tell me to answer these things?

lol i challenge you to go into the real world with this mode of thinking and expect people to help you out. evidently money is not the sole mode of transaction; if people are concerned about something, then obviously that concern arose for a reason.

But if you want an answer I think I've built a small reputation for myself where people can see my name and maybe have a sense that I am reliable with these things. I have a few projects out there that I was involved in. Once again, I have something there that most people making these sorts of topics don't have. (edit)

okay, but clearly that doesn't do much in assuaging doubts, so you really haven't answered the question!

EDIT: let me be clear here. i'm not going to condemn selflessness (since everyone seems to be exhorting the community to be more altruistic as a whole), but the expectation for altruism is not only wholly unrealistic, but it's also not self-sustaining. ROMhacking, especially for fire emblem, is a big time sink. so you can try to encourage the community to be more helpful or supportive or whatever all you want, but the behavior of the community is just going to return to its equilibrium.

Edited November 22, 2013 by dondon151

[Chocolate Kitty]

Maybe because you're on one side of this you don't understand why, but despite how he's making it sound, dondon is right. One of the most annoying things for people who work on things for others is when you see that they just give up on the project and your work has been wasted. Sure, adding a monetary reward helps, but without any assurance that what you create is going to be put to good use, you're less inclined to do it. It has nothing against you the person asking for help, it's just something that those who are willing to help would like to know.

[DH_Ninja]

Don't expect a response for a while (hours). Heading out. No one die screaming without me! Kay! Thxs!

[R.O.Berc]

lol i challenge you to go into the real world with this mode of thinking and expect people to help you out. evidently money is not the sole mode of transaction; if people are concerned about something, then obviously that concern arose for a reason.

I don't know man, I saw money and was instantly sold. Plus people offering money for sprite requests seems rare. Even if the project didn't get finished and I was paid prior to that happening then I don't feel like I've wasted my time.

What bothered me the most was just the immediate reply of "Why should anyone put their time into this?" as if that person alone was the speaker of all spriters.

Sure, DH probably could have posted the screens and progress in the original post but the first reply was still incredibly unnecessary.

[Celice]

Don't expect a response for a while (hours). Heading out. No one die screaming without me! Kay! Thxs!

If you ever need some maps for your project, I'll spot you whatever you need. I'll also not resort to tactless mercenary bribes.

[Thor Odinson]

If someone wants to offer help for free, that's their call. I'm sick of working for less than minimum wage for something I spend hours on only to have it go nowhere, and that seems to be what most want. Most spriters of quality I know spend at least 5 hours on just a mug, and even in the land of "minimum wage is not a living wage" America 5 hours of work nets to 35 dollars. And pretty sure most contract artists do more than minumum wage. It's harsh, but we gotta feed ourselves, too. Too often I just feel that people treat artists more like robots that crank out art than human beings with their own life and own needs. Maybe I'm just too jaded but this is what it feels like in reality.

Alternatively, make something without good graphics, but has fun gameplay/compelling story/things to get people to like your project enough. People are happier working on something they love than something they have no investments in. Why do you think fanart and fanfiction exists? People like a thing, so they make things about the thing they like. Do remember that you're not entitled to other people working for you. Yes, it probably sucks to see people not wanting to contribute for whatever reasons, but realise that other people have their own lives and don't exist to make things. Just because they have a skillset doesn't mean they need to use it.

[Miacis]

It was mentionned a bit earlier that nowadays, there are better and easier tools to do your hacking, and that back in the day, people had to fiddle and tinker to get things done because it was harder. Then the question: why don't newbies nowadays don't do the same as we did before?

Well maybe because all those who could just jump into hacking like y'all did... already did it? Perhaps it's just me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the reason why there are still newbies joining in to start projects is specifically because they don't have to waste their energy and focus on uncooperative hacking tools anymore. All of you who managed to overcome everything and acquired a methodology on how to learn and get things done: congrats. But I doubt everyone new is like you were, and I don't think you should expect them to be.

I know I shouldn't talk so much about that SSBB hacking community I manage, but I think it makes a good analogy. We've had a similar advance in hacking tools, yet still have hundreds of help topics about stuff that's already been asked / could be solved if the guys tried stuff himself

That doesn't stop some of our users to always go and help those "ignorant" users. It can be just a few lines of advice, maybe a link to the tuts. It doesn't have to be an essay. These users in need of help are certainly not trying hard at all, but from experience, most of our current rising stars started like that.: by asking stupid questions they could have answered by themselves.

tl;dr

Being supportive isn't simply not putting down people's ideas (that's not being a jerk). It's also taking it upon yourself to give a hand to even those you don't think deserve the help.

[AstraLunaSol]

Dude asstra is making the worst fangame in the community, dicks of faggots. How is he not such a bad guy.

so bad

well if you don't want to put effort in then stay silent. We have too many people here that say "read the doc" or "figure it out yourself" like those types of things aren't helpful

ps: why is Astra such a bad guy?

spoiler: i'm not

this hack is super bad though

what makes it a bad game?

(nothing)

(actually some things, depending on views)

I feel that we should direct the newer hackers to resources without being assholes. Then eventually expect them to find resources on their own.

Being a dick definitely isn't helping though.

[dondon151]

If someone wants to offer help for free, that's their call. I'm sick of working for less than minimum wage for something I spend hours on only to have it go nowhere, and that seems to be what most want. Most spriters of quality I know spend at least 5 hours on just a mug, and even in the land of "minimum wage is not a living wage" America 5 hours of work nets to 35 dollars. And pretty sure most contract artists do more than minumum wage. It's harsh, but we gotta feed ourselves, too. Too often I just feel that people treat artists more like robots that crank out art than human beings with their own life and own needs. Maybe I'm just too jaded but this is what it feels like in reality.

go to the kitchen and make me a sprite sandwich =X

Alternatively, make something without good graphics, but has fun gameplay/compelling story/things to get people to like your project enough. People are happier working on something they love than something they have no investments in. Why do you think fanart and fanfiction exists? People like a thing, so they make things about the thing they like. Do remember that you're not entitled to other people working for you. Yes, it probably sucks to see people not wanting to contribute for whatever reasons, but realise that other people have their own lives and don't exist to make things. Just because they have a skillset doesn't mean they need to use it.

yeah see that's kind of why project dondon reuses all of the FE7 mugs lol (except for the two customs that you made me)

one solution that i've been considering is to just reuse FE mugs for new characters and give them different names and personalities. the issue is that most players look at the hack and go like "wtf why is sain here and why is he all different and shit," which is not conducive to drawing popularity. i do think that players gravitate more towards the bells and whistles - at least, that's what gets them to start playing in the first place - and the gameplay is what keeps them going. but unfortunately, one thing comes before another.

[The JOJ]

Oh, if only NickT was here to see this topic...

Maybe she'd finally realize how much of a jerk she was in the same way that Cam is apologizing for.

[Thor Odinson]

go to the kitchen and make me a sprite sandwich =X

yeah see that's kind of why project dondon reuses all of the FE7 mugs lol (except for the two customs that you made me)

one solution that i've been considering is to just reuse FE mugs for new characters and give them different names and personalities. the issue is that most players look at the hack and go like "wtf why is sain here and why is he all different and shit," which is not conducive to drawing popularity. i do think that players gravitate more towards the bells and whistles - at least, that's what gets them to start playing in the first place - and the gameplay is what keeps them going. but unfortunately, one thing comes before another.

Silly don

There's always just putting Sain there as a placeholder and clearly state him as such. If the hack is otherwise well-received, artists may decide to sprite for characters they grew fond of or even just help out when they can. I mean, if I grow attached to someone's character, and that character needs a good visual that they don't have already, I could make an exception to my "no more free work" and offer to do it for that character as, well, official fanart I guess? I dunno. Hell sometimes I tell Arch that if he puts (insert favourite character of mine) into EN I'll throw him sprites for that :P

[Jubby]

Since I don't want to read through this whole topic, I'll just say that I'm really happy to see this kind of post (especially from someone like Cam who I really like but used to find could sometimes be intimidating to noobs)

I generally agree with most of the things being said here, I lately have pretty much hated this forum, and I'd like to see things improve, the elitist attitude go away (I'll admit to having had it a fair amount of the time, too), and just in general for it to be a nicer atmosphere.

I love all my buddies from Overtroll and stuff, sometimes I just wish everybody else could have the opportunity to know them like I have - I think a lot of people here just think that they are elitist douchebags and that really saddens me cause there's so much more to them than that :'(

^^ But I think that comes from both sides, and I don't think it's just the "veterans" or Overtrollers or noobs or any specific group of people contributing to the negative atmosphere - I think to some extent we're all to blame.

I can't stand a few people that kick around this forum but I think generally speaking I get on okay with most people - often people who are on different sides of arguing, and things. This saddens me too, because both sides are brilliant, in my opinion, and I think that sometimes they have a lot in common.

SAPPY JUBBS

WRITE AN ESSAY WHY DONT YOU

:$

[Wayward Winds]

go to the kitchen and make me a sprite sandwich =X yeah see that's kind of why project dondon reuses all of the FE7 mugs lol (except for the two customs that you made me) one solution that i've been considering is to just reuse FE mugs for new characters and give them different names and personalities. the issue is that most players look at the hack and go like "wtf why is sain here and why is he all different and shit," which is not conducive to drawing popularity.

...Or, as I'm doing, splice, possibly recolour, minor hair and clothing edit to finish off. You'd (probably not) be surprised what, for example, can be done by using Igrene's head with Sonia's body, make the hair longer and more unruly, remove Sonia's hands and put a couple of clothing straps in, and make sure the whole thing is consistently coloured. If done right, you get a somewhat wild but unsociable looking character, which fits what I need. You can still see the Igrene elements, but no-one's going to mistake them for the same character.

This is something even a newb like me can do. (Obviously though, this will lead to 'meh, it's okay' portraits at best, but at least they'll be original(ish). Next up; trying to convert a Tactics Ogre mug into FE7 graphics, just as long as I don't get inconsistent styles).

But re-using existing mugs unedited can work too - look at Auster from Kitty of Time's latest League of Champions. Just the FE7 Marcus portrait until the next update, but it still works.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Wayward Winds

[DH_Ninja]

If you ever need some maps for your project, I'll spot you whatever you need. I'll also not resort to tactless mercenary bribes.

This I appreciate but I don't think it's necessary since I do most of the map work myself. Though I could always use criticism. ^^

Maybe because you're on one side of this you don't understand why, but despite how he's making it sound, dondon is right. One of the most annoying things for people who work on things for others is when you see that they just give up on the project and your work has been wasted. Sure, adding a monetary reward helps, but without any assurance that what you create is going to be put to good use, you're less inclined to do it. It has nothing against you the person asking for help, it's just something that those who are willing to help would like to know.

Well it's like Merc said, usually a monetary reward is incentive enough to take up the task if you show interest. Usually when people sprite or work upon something it's usually free and of their own initiative for either fun or their own personal project or maybe a friends. Even then a deadline probably won't be pushed forward. Even if the project did get scrapped, you still got something out of it. It's not like the work you just put forth disappears and you got paid in the end. If you feel like it's waste then, then I suppose it's a personal problem.

EDIT: let me be clear here. i'm not going to condemn selflessness (since everyone seems to be exhorting the community to be more altruistic as a whole), but the expectation for altruism is not only wholly unrealistic, but it's also not self-sustaining. ROMhacking, especially for fire emblem, is a big time sink. so you can try to encourage the community to be more helpful or supportive or whatever all you want, but the behavior of the community is just going to return to its equilibrium.

So don't bother trying to encourage people to be less toxic because it's not going to matter; they're going to be toxic regardless of what we try to do to change it? This isn't the type of thinking we want or need.

tl;dr

Being supportive isn't simply not putting down people's ideas (that's not being a jerk). It's also taking it upon yourself to give a hand to even those you don't think deserve the help.

Cut this for length. Absolutely, you can't expect everyone to figure out the way a lot of people used to. I remember a time where custom animations were rare and trying to figure out how to insert something even a little different was frustrating. Often times people ask for help to figure out something when they absolutely don't know. I know it was the same for me and a lot of times I got tough love. (Aka: The people around me insisted that I'd figure it out on my own and refused to bite.) Sometimes I managed but other times I obliterated things and eventually in order to learn I got help. I'm still learning things and often I do turn to more experienced people when I really don't know. Yes, guides are available as are a lot of resources available but not everyone among those users who makes a topic is going to be one of those people who aren't trying their hardest.

I mean, there are a lot of them out there but they shouldn't be mocked.

[Lamia]

If someone wants to offer help for free, that's their call. I'm sick of working for less than minimum wage for something I spend hours on only to have it go nowhere, and that seems to be what most want. Most spriters of quality I know spend at least 5 hours on just a mug, and even in the land of "minimum wage is not a living wage" America 5 hours of work nets to 35 dollars. And pretty sure most contract artists do more than minumum wage. It's harsh, but we gotta feed ourselves, too. Too often I just feel that people treat artists more like robots that crank out art than human beings with their own life and own needs. Maybe I'm just too jaded but this is what it feels like in reality.

aha, I can see where you're coming from with this; I'm an artist and I feel the same way

and although I draw and produce lots and lots of free stuff, it does feel like a thankless, mostly payless job in entertainment, and for something as niche as fire emblem stuff I can see how it could be very much worse, so passion has to play into it too, and as someone before mentioned, seeing what you do go to waste has gotta be a killer

thankfully, for my own projects, I can do absolutely everything myself (maps, event coding, graphics, mugshots, writing, etc) so I feel I'm lucky in this respect, not to say I'm better than anyone else or anything.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Lorena

[dondon151]

Well it's like Merc said, usually a monetary reward is incentive enough to take up the task if you show interest. Usually when people sprite or work upon something it's usually free and of their own initiative for either fun or their own personal project or maybe a friends. Even then a deadline probably won't be pushed forward. Even if the project did get scrapped, you still got something out of it. It's not like the work you just put forth disappears and you got paid in the end. If you feel like it's waste then, then I suppose it's a personal problem.

this is more than just a "personal problem" if more than one artist in this thread has affirmed that monetary rewards on their own are insufficient.

So don't bother trying to encourage people to be less toxic because it's not going to matter; they're going to be toxic regardless of what we try to do to change it? This isn't the type of thinking we want or need.

you're putting words in my mouth. if you read my previous posts, i acknowledged that it's better to ignore bad ideas than to put them down (but the internet is very bad at ignoring things). it's one thing to encourage people not to be mean; it's something else to encourage people to put others ahead of themselves. the latter is simply not going to work.

[Thor Odinson]

aha, I can see where you're coming from with this; I'm an artist and I feel the same way

and although I draw and produce lots and lots of free stuff, it does feel like a thankless, mostly payless job in entertainment, and for something as niche as fire emblem stuff I can see how it could be very much worse, so passion has to play into it too, and as someone before mentioned, seeing what you do go to waste has gotta be a killer

thankfully, for my own projects, I can do absolutely everything myself (maps, event coding, graphics, mugshots, writing, etc) so I feel I'm lucky in this respect, not to say I'm better than anyone else or anything.

Yeah, I used to be a lot more generous with my work but after a lot of projects going nowhere I limit myself to doing work for Dream of Five (which isn't my project per se, but I'm heavily invested in it so think of it as me being a major shareholder? idk) and sometimes I'll throw sprites at people whom I'm friends out of friendship. Strangers? Gotta have something I feel my time won't be wasted doing in the end, and some kind of recompense for the time I could be doing other things, like programming -- my actual field of study, mind.

It's definitely nice to be able to do everything yourself. I can't write, but I'm a webdesigner and it feels great to see a site I did all the code, graphics, and layout for and see it all come together so I guess it's something similar here. I realise that not everyone can have everything at once, but alas, we don't have unlimited time.

Wrt toxic: I fail to see how treating artists and people with certain in-demand skillsets as people with their own priorities, time, and whatever instead of insert request here work comes out vending machines who only exist to make stuff for others as toxic.I'm all for pointing someone in the right direction should they ask for some help on doing things themselves (I'm pretty bad at giving crit but if you come to me to ask how to improve your art I'll do my best to give you pointers, no matter what your skill level is at currently) but artists should not feel obligated to work for no recompense or recompense that they feel isn't enough to make up for their time.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Thor Odinson

[Aleph]

Well this is like 4 pages so I'm late and I do not have the patience to read all of that.

In response to the first post, though, a lot of elitism may have spilled over from past communities that don't exist anymore. FEU, for example, had loads of hacking resources all laid out in plain sight ready to be digested. People ignored them and made unnecessary posts about things they already had shoved in their faces. The responses to them were appropriately malignant. People made habits of this.

SF needs better resources. Give people what they need and they will make do with it. After all - if all you have to offer is being an ass to them, they can just ignore you...at least, if they have what they need despite.

Speaking of needs Ineedmoneythishackingstuffistimeconsuming help guys.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Aleph

[Luminar]

i agree, i lurk and if i mention i cant unlock another tale for arch's elibian nights i get rude responses with no solutions and ignored by other fanboys. we need more nice people on here like blazer, nyzgamer, and mageknight.

[deranger]

Just went into the Resources sub forum for the first time in a while. It's pretty uplifting to see all the new (and old) open source stuff. Props to us.

[Miacis]

i agree, i lurk and if i mention i cant unlock another tale for arch's elibian nights i get rude responses with no solutions and ignored by other fanboys. we need more nice people on here like blazer, nyzgamer, and mageknight.

No offense, but what are you talking about? I'm pretty sure you were told (twice) rather clearly that Resuming messed up the hub, and that you should stick to savestates to keep your progress. After which, you went on another unrelated topic to randomly talk down on EN even though you were answered on what to do (twice). Calling people there rude and fanboys is honestly quite insulting considering all your questions were answered.

Really, there's not understanding something and being lazy. And then there's being disrespectful.

[Celice]

No offense, but what are you talking about? I'm pretty sure you were told (twice) rather clearly that Resuming messed up the hub, and that you should stick to savestates to keep your progress. After which, you went on another unrelated topic to randomly talk down on EN even though you were answered on what to do (twice). Calling people there rude and fanboys is honestly quite insulting considering all your questions were answered.

Really, there's not understanding something and being lazy. And then there's being disrespectful.

Looking in that member's previous posts, I see nothing disrespectful in their posts. Perhaps you can misconstrue "there are a lot of bugs" as being aggressive, but really, if anything this member has spoken up to only be--just as they confessed--given a somewhat unnecessary rude response.

[Pixelman]

i agree, i lurk and if i mention i cant unlock another tale for arch's elibian nights i get rude responses with no solutions and ignored by other fanboys. we need more nice people on here like blazer, nyzgamer, and mageknight.

Hey, why would you say this? I mean, we helped you, and then you back stab us with this. That's pretty rude man.

Also, there are also other nice people than just those three. Just look at Arch and Celice.

Edited November 26, 2013 by PixelmanFE