Inception Mafia

[Percivalé]

To be completely honest I don't feel like doing much right now but I probably will when I get my coffee.

I did some thinking though and I don't think Refa is scum anymore, or at least less likely to be scum, because his last minute voteswitch was so bad that I only really see clumsy town doing it.

Dunno whether I want to vote Kay or Rein. Will try to pick up my motivation for this game once I get back. Then you'll see more from me probably. Maybe actual cases. Who knows

[j00]

like strege said

J00 are you gonna vote shinori or what. I think you continuing to go "man look at these scummy things shinori is doing" and prodding him but continuing to not vote him is scummy as fuck and kinda hypocritical (in the context of the game, not personally).

why are you doing the exact same thing with me if you find it scummy and hypocritical

yeah nothing's changed
##Vote: Quote
and i'm aware this turning into tunneling but you're still my top scumread since you keep doing this kind of stuff, waffling on your read on me, finding me probably scummy but only giving vague reasons for why and not doing anything about it, like pushing a case or voting

speaking of waffling
don't like refa's last few posts from last phase, he says a lot of weird stuff in them and waffles hard on shinori and kay. first he finds kay scummier and refuses to vote shinori, later he says shinori's scummy after a reread and when sb suggested to vote kay he voted her and said he had to reread her again to see if he found her scummy or not. after that he doesn't mention her again before switching back to shinori since suddenly he remembers turbowagon's to be bad.

basically i don't really understand what your scumreads are, did you find shinori and kay equally scummy and went for shinori just because of wagon analysis?

kirsche: you're not mentioning kay today, can you explain why you still find her scummier than rein?

[Percivalé]

Also wow mafia didn't want cave story good ending. Or strege didn't. Jerks

[Percivalé]

##vote: j00

TIRED of you tunneling on me, you have done almost nothing else memorable, you waffled on shinori and I had trouble reading you because of some other thing I mentioned before but you're just sticking to an easy case now and I do not like it.

[Percivalé]

Man that just took the cake. I'm more confident in this now.

[Strege]

I'm guessing one of these kills is yours then. Which one?

I killed Parr, just because I could see scum parking a vote on him lategame.

I'm also sort of lurking until certain people post I guess.

[Zkirsche]

@j00: I just weigh the stuff Kay has done as worse atm. The difference between them isn't huge but I want to hear more from Kay first.

@Strege: What the actual fuck? That is the dumbest reason to shoot someone I have ever seen, so instead of shooting someone who might be scum you decided to shoot someone you think is town and will be wagoned by scum?

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Kay and co can wait, what made you think that was a good idea?

[Grassbridger]

Ugh ok I had thoughts written down somewhere but they got lost. They were from reading Kay's and j00's ISOs, let's see what I can recreate.

Kay is scummy for low content. All I really see is a Shinori read that came with the vote. Her last post (#609) has a kind of no-content advicey bit directed at j00 that I don't like:

This post doesn't seem really useful. Scum don't always get to tell their scumbuddies not to do stupid things, Poly could easily have just panicked when he realized how the setup seems to work and tried to retroactively claim something better without consulting them. And townies do stuff that's not helpful to the town all sorts of times. So, you're not only waffling horribly, you're doing it with bad arguments imo.

The lead-in to this was "I don't really see how j00 is fearmongering in regards to Shinori's claim." So what's your take on j00, Kay? You say some things here but avoid drawing any sort of conclusion or asking anything.

Much of her content is hypotheticals about scum communication. Her bit on me is mostly tone issues, although she does tie it back to scumminess. There's also a tunnel on Prims early, which I can't really take fault with given that I thought Prims was scummy too.

I do agree with Kay though that I don't see j00's posts as fearmongering. Actually all of the "fearmongering" arguments I've seen in this game are bad, I think. Anyway, j00 doesn't seem so bad to me. I see reads and content and scumhunting.

I also agree with kirsche that Strege's last post is truly wtf.

##Vote: Strege

Why would you kill someone you thought was town??

Also,[spoiler=~rolespec~ (Strege)]If Strege is the Usurper and he really does have to kill Euklyd for his role, why hasn't he killed Euklyd yet? Also, let's say the Usurper is a town-aligned compulsive vig (or something) as opposed to SK, because SK seems unlikely. Do we lynch Strege on (1) the chance that he's scum taking credit for the scum kill and (2) the fact that he's speeding up our defeat by killing town?

Maybe Euklyd needs the Usurper dead but the Usurper doesn't need to kill Euklyd?

[Strege]

@Strege: What the actual fuck? That is the dumbest reason to shoot someone I have ever seen, so instead of shooting someone who might be scum you decided to shoot someone you think is town and will be wagoned by scum?

##Unvote

##Vote:Strege

Kay and co can wait, what made you think that was a good idea?

I didn't mean that I had a townread on Parr -- in fact I had trouble settling on any opinion on him. I meant that if he were town it wouldn't be as awful that I had shot him as it would be if I had shot anyone else and they had turned up town; he had less content, no one strongly townreading him, and I thought it would be easier to votepark on him. I thought that it lined up with the logic of vigs shooting inactives and that, though he wasn't inactive, Parr was the safest shot for similar reasons.

Actually, it's probably necessary to out that my shot last night was compulsive, and futher that I didn't notice it in my Role PM until the night phase. Had I noticed ahead of time I probably would have done more to scope out my shot ahead of time, pushing Parr more at the very least. :/

[Percivalé]

I don't think strege is mafia

[Percivalé]

third party?????? who knows but we haven't lynched a single mafia and that's making me fucking paranoid

[euklyd]

Okay so.

Here I am. I'm like preparing for classes that start tomorrow, and will have a lot more time tomorrow (like, gobs and gobs of time) (hopefully).

So. Let's do this.

I got some info last night, though, and it's kinda sorta relevant, since we seem to be speculating about thirds and whatnot.

The game started with 14 Russian Mafia and 4 Undercover Cops. This means there are no ITPs.

(bolded because it's, like, important and stuff)

Anyways...

Did anyone receive Poly's Role PM?

If Strege is the Usurper and he really does have to kill Euklyd for his role, why hasn't he killed Euklyd yet? Also, let's say the Usurper is a town-aligned compulsive vig (or something) as opposed to SK, because SK seems unlikely. Do we lynch Strege on (1) the chance that he's scum taking credit for the scum kill and (2) the fact that he's speeding up our defeat by killing town?

Maybe Euklyd needs the Usurper dead but the Usurper doesn't need to kill Euklyd?

My wincon is that the Russian Mafia win and the Usurper lose. I don't know what the Usurper's wincon is exactly, but it involves my death. So, what I don't know is if they need to outlive me, or if they need both me dead and them alive at game end, or if they merely need me dead at all.

Regardless I'm not too worried about the Usurper, because right now we're in way more danger of losing by Undercover Cop, rather than merely me losing by Usurper.

Also making Strege the Usurper would be really dumb. Like, giving someone a wincon that requires a specific player dead, and then giving them a gun? That makes no sense, unless the wincon is more restrictive than that.

I'm not understanding all the Usurper-spec. It's completely pointless. It's not like we're gonna lynch the Usurper, since we need to lynch scum, not Russian Mafia, and the Usurper is certainly Russian Mafia.

[euklyd]

Actually all the Usurper-spec that Grass has been doing is pinging me oddly.

[Strege]

Quote, I'm still wondering about my previous questions. Who else do you find scummy?

Kay is scummy for low content. All I really see is a Shinori read that came with the vote. Her last post (#609) has a kind of no-content advicey bit directed at j00 that I don't like:

[...]

The lead-in to this was "I don't really see how j00 is fearmongering in regards to Shinori's claim." So what's your take on j00, Kay? You say some things here but avoid drawing any sort of conclusion or asking anything.

[...]

Much of her content is hypotheticals about scum communication. Her bit on me is mostly tone issues, although she does tie it back to scumminess. There's also a tunnel on Prims early, which I can't really take fault with given that I thought Prims was scummy too.

I don't like the first sentence of the above, particularly as it is followed by acknowledgements of content that contradict it and the second sentence.

I feel like Refa is going to respond to j00 at least in part by saying he only voted Kay because Shinori was at L-1, and would like to submit my request now for him to answer why he voted at all.

Also, j00: has your Poly read changed and what do you think of Grass (just because those reads seem to have vanished). What is your opinion of Euklyd's claim?

Oh, cut by Euklyd. Good timing. ^^

[MRDRHAWK]

Anyways...

Did anyone receive Poly's Role PM?

Yes, if anyone got my PM, please claim as such so we may lynch your scummy ass

[MRDRHAWK]

ftr the your scummy ass is to anyone who got my Role PM, not Euk

[euklyd]

what

[Grassbridger]

Actually all the Usurper-spec that Grass has been doing is pinging me oddly.

It's seriously the most interesting thing about this game, especially given the flavor. Anyway, my previous post came before I confirmed with Paperblade that there were no ITPs.

I guess it's unlikely that Strege is mafia and claiming kills.

I don't like the first sentence of the above, particularly as it is followed by acknowledgements of content that contradict it and the second sentence.

I said low content, not no content, and then I explained why I also didn't like some of the content that she does have. Kay has one read and a lot of fluff. Like really this barely makes any sense given what I said.

Anyway I don't think Strege would claim kills as scum (Undercover Cop) and Paper essentially confirmed to me that there are no ITPs harmful to town (Mafia), as implied in my wincon. (He also confirmed that scum have the town wincon, so I'm not bothered about saying this.)

##Unvote

##Vote: Kay

Kay has spent a lot of time saying not a lot, except about Shinori and tone.

[Sunwoo]

##vote: j00

TIRED of you tunneling on me, you have done almost nothing else memorable, you waffled on shinori and I had trouble reading you because of some other thing I mentioned before but you're just sticking to an easy case now and I do not like it.

This vote sounds very retaliatory. I am aware that you mentioned your suspicions on j00 earlier, but this vote makes it seem like the main reason you're voting j00 is because she's voting you and that she is continuously suspecting you. That your vote came right after hers on you, and you're saying "yeah, I'm so confident that j00 is scum now" after her vote when you didn't mention her as a possible lynch target in #726 doesn't make me very confident in your case. People aren't scum just because they're tunneling on you. I also take issue with people who call themselves "easy mislynches" or "easy cases", it seems like an excuse to blame people for finding you suspicious.

I killed Parr, just because I could see scum parking a vote on him lategame.

I didn't mean that I had a townread on Parr -- in fact I had trouble settling on any opinion on him. I meant that if he were town it wouldn't be as awful that I had shot him as it would be if I had shot anyone else and they had turned up town; he had less content, no one strongly townreading him, and I thought it would be easier to votepark on him. I thought that it lined up with the logic of vigs shooting inactives and that, though he wasn't inactive, Parr was the safest shot for similar reasons.

Strege, was Parrhesia the strongest scum read you had when you shot him? If he wasn't, then why would you shoot him over your strongest scum reads? I mean, I think I get what you're saying about "vig shooting inactives" but I'm kind of going ;/ right now at this reasoning.

Refa's last minute vote switch last phase is weird and too sudden, I'm going to have to reread what happened near phase end to make sense of that. What do you think about Kay now?

##Vote: Kay

I still think Kay is scummy, and would like to see more from her. Not comfortable with Refa right now either. I was mostly okay with Strege earlier, but I would like him to answer my above question because the reasoning he gave for shooting Parrhesia is making me go ;/. Will need to reread Grass and some other people at a more reasonable time.

[Zkirsche]

I didn't mean that I had a townread on Parr -- in fact I had trouble settling on any opinion on him.

What happened to

Parr could emulate all the scum benefit of his behaviour and gain none of the flak by simply not posting, or posting briefly with some excuses for it. Assuming scum play ideally (if that's a good assumption) why has scum!Parr played as he has?

which is clearly a Parr defense?

I thought that it lined up with the logic of vigs shooting inactives and that, though he wasn't inactive, Parr was the safest shot for similar reasons.

Except Kay is just as inactive and was an actual scumread of yours, so surely she was a better shot? I don't understand why town would go "Who should I vig? I know, I'll vig the null read inactive and not the scumread inactive!"

Tbh the numbers make me happier with scum!Strege as 14/4 sounds like a pretty outnumbered scum, so I'd assume their roles would be stronger. I don't buy that Strege wouldn't claim the kills if he wanted to claim vig, which we've already seen to be a role that fits town flavour with objection!. Furthermore, Furet was a good shot for scum to make because noone really wanted to lynch him and his role was unknown.

Strege > Kay > Rein > Boron

I don't think strege is mafia

Why not?

[BBM]

Votals

Rein (1): Strege

Strege (1): kirsche

j00 (1): Levity

Levity (1): j00

Kay (2): Grassbridger, Boron

Not Voting (6): Euklyd, Kay, SB, Refa, Rein, Poly

7 to lynch. You have 55 hours and 45 minutes left.

[Kay]

Not suspicious of Refa now because that voteswitch was too weird, scum wouldn't wanna contribute to a mislynch that blatantly. I think it could go either way if I was scum, since I'm under a lot of suspicion so bussing me would make sense, but so is Refa so arguably two suspicious scumbuddies is better than one slightly-less-suspicious scumbuddy, so I don't have a problem with anyone else thinking the switch was scummy, but well, from my point of view it definitely wasn't.

Poly needs to elaborate on how I'm "jumpy"

I don't really like Kay's Shinori vote from last phase. It is placed in post 512 and at that point I think it's okay, but she hardly pushed it afterwards. I don't like the absent follow-up on Refa either (and I think Kay's initial comments on him needed a follow-up -- what did you think of Refa's waffling? Did your read of his tone sharpen over time?). Could you be a little more explicit about the relative intensities of your reads?

When was I around that I should have been pushing it? And don't quote some post when I did mention Shinori and just was mostly busy addressing people being suspicious of me.

##Vote: Rein

Kinda also think Levity might be scum at this point, too much of his activity is quibbling with j00 and defending townreads.

[Strege]

Strege, was Parrhesia the strongest scum read you had when you shot him? If he wasn't, then why would you shoot him over your strongest scum reads? I mean, I think I get what you're saying about "vig shooting inactives" but I'm kind of going ;/ right now at this reasoning.

No, he was nullish. It may be useful to note that this is my first time as vig and I'll admit that my reasoning is probably flawed.

What happened to

[...]

which is clearly a Parr defense?

[...]

Except Kay is just as inactive and was an actual scumread of yours, so surely she was a better shot? I don't understand why town would go "Who should I vig? I know, I'll vig the null read inactive and not the scumread inactive!"

Tbh the numbers make me happier with scum!Strege as 14/4 sounds like a pretty outnumbered scum, so I'd assume their roles would be stronger. I don't buy that Strege wouldn't claim the kills if he wanted to claim vig, which we've already seen to be a role that fits town flavour with objection!. Furthermore, Furet was a good shot for scum to make because noone really wanted to lynch him and his role was unknown.

I thought of it as a Eurykins attack. I didn't like his argument and wanted him to justify it, to prove to me that he was putting effort into the read instead of just jamming Parr into scum tropes like I thought he was.

I think you missed the point where I said I didn't vig Parr for inactivity.

Parr wasn't a lynch candidate but it would be pretty easy to say "Parr's lack of content D2 now that people have stopped pushing him is bugging me" and hold a vote on him for half of a phase. If you only leave alive people who don't have a lot of scumreads that gets a lot worse later in the game.

When was I around that I should have been pushing it? And don't quote some post when I did mention Shinori and just was mostly busy addressing people being suspicious of me.

Post 609 would be an example then -- you mention Shinori but it isn't a push. You don't even say if his apathy is scummy or not, or what you thought of Shinori's claim. It looks like you were short on time but I don't like how little you discussed your main scumread, with a large part of the existing argument seeming to be left as <he's not doing stuff>.

[Percivalé]

won't be around very much for a bit. sorry in advance. but will explain a few things:

I do not think Strege is mafia because I do not think he is acting like mafia, at all, and if there are no third parties like Euk said then he can only be clumsy town to me. His play reminds me of Shinori's (not by meta but just by actions: clumsy roleclaim, townish way of talking about things, etc.)

Refa's last minute voteswitch from the end of D2 makes me feel better about him too because that felt, again, like a clumsy town move. I'm not as strong on him as I am on Strege though.

As for j00, I think of it like this: even if I did NOT think of myself as an easy target (which I do but I'm not gonna factor that into this, but fite me Boron), j00 is scummy because I believe they've found a vote to stick to with a convenient excuse and aren't doing much else about it either. it's going nowhere. j00 is sitting on the vote on me with the assertion that I am their strongest scumread, which is well and dandy, but their vote still hasn't really gone anywhere and they aren't doing very much else to convince people that I am scum... and it's pinging me really badly.

I thought about perhaps if I let my frustration guide my vote, and perhaps I did at first, but I slept on it and yes I do think j00 is scummy for this and also the other things I've mentioned throughout the game but didn't want to act on at first because I felt other people were scummier.

I kind of want to vote Kirsche again though because something about his posts bugged me HUGELY today, need to read them again and decide that. As for your question, Strege, I would also vote Rein and Kirsche. I really think there are at least 2 scum in the less active people and I would be shooting there.

@j00

(female pronouns right? I'm not 100% sure and I don't like to assume pronouns so I referred to you as they for now.)

@Kirsche

if I call you Kevin again please correct me and I am very sorry if I do. I'm paying good attention though

@everyone

stop calling me she

[Percivalé]

err and Kay. I'd still vote Kay.