Inception Mafia

[charlie_]

Doing a full reread atm. Skipping over dead posts to actually get through D1 in a timely manner.

Don't like kirsche's first vote on Rein here, it just seems like he ignores the bulk of Rein's post where he votes Manix because he doesn't think that's the way that a townie should use a Tailor, not because he claimed Tailor. This post is just coasting on his Rein vote for now

This post by Via just looks like he's massively overreacting to a case that shouldn't exist by Prims. This later post is also pretty much the same deal, he's being super self-conscious He also pulls the same Rein suspicion that kirsche did that had bad reasoning here. I don't think Prims ever attacked Manix either, so I don't really get this post, which pretty much seems to say that he is. This post is awkward to me due to the premptive defense, I don't think anyone would've called you out for tunneling that early on, it just reads really self-conscious to me. A lot of her posts after that for a while don't really push anything, they just sort of make comments. His Prims case was pretty flawed too, it consisted of pushing him as scum for a reaction test that couldn't have been anything else, saying he's scum because he thought of a redirector and then a bunch of meta stuff and a couple of other misc points. Also I'm pretty sure that your role wouldn't make you obvtown, especially considering the other roles that have flipped so far. I also don't think the promised Rein case ever actually happened? This post basically says that Prims is scummy for making Via vote his vote on him, when a townie would want to do the exact same thing.

Don't like that Grass' first real post revolves around if Manix's roleclaim and doesn't even give a definite opinion on it. His Strege vote here is also really weak, its just that "an rvs post made me uncomfortable", he made a point that you didn't like and that Strege said that scum would play optimally. He was also part of the bad Prims case club.

scorri's first post looks like a lot of empty contributions with just a bunch of nullreads and a bad Rein vote. Her next post wasn't much better in terms of providing reads either. Then she disappears for a while and so does her Rein suspicion in her next post where she just makes a really easy wagon jump. She also seemed to have just lurked through phase end since she was clearly around to post

This Kay post is weak since it never really explains why Prims is scum, and the only other thing it really says is that Objection threw out an omgus and then a bunch of how to play posts for Furet. The response post isn't much better, because it still avoids giving real reasons for why he's scum and the end part of the post really bugs me (the "if you're town, which I highly doubt" part.)

Rein reads townie from his early posts against Manix, I don't think that scum would make them.

SO YEAH I'M FINALLY DONE WITH DAY 1 REREAD. Gonna make a post to address more recent stuff and reread D2, but for now since I spent all the phase so far on this post when I was around I'm gonna

##Vote: Via

[Percivalé]

also again I don't care if I'm mislynched because I'm still hindering the town and don't want to play this game but try to like lynch scum after me because I don't want town to lose ~_~

[charlie_]

Quick thoughts on stuff from this phase:

-Don't like Via's reaction to j00's vote on him, it just looks randomly really angry? Wouldn't actually call it scummy tbh but the reaction makes me a bit uncomfortable.

-kirsche bugs me how he seems to not really care about his vote, from #732, and it just seems like a really opportunistic vote to make imo when mafia!Strege has no motive for claiming the kill with such weak reasons.

-Grass' is even worse though, due to asking about his lynch even if he's a townie, despite the fact that we'd be taking away 2 chances to hit scum with his lynch and his shot disappearing and probably still ending up in *YLO but only a day later but with less chances to hit scum ovreall from it.

-Don't think that Strege is clear but the way he's playing his role doesn't read like mafia.

-Paperblade pls update the op

[Percivalé]

your vote on me feels really weird SB, especially with the whole "their reaction to j00 is weird but not necessarily scummy" well you do think I'm scum anyway though..............

[Refa]

Sorry, I've literally done a whole lot of nothing this day. Making a post right now.

[Zkirsche]

(This is SB)

-kirsche bugs me how he seems to not really care about his vote, from #732, and it just seems like a really opportunistic vote to make imo when mafia!Strege has no motive for claiming the kill with such weak reasons.

mafia!Strege has plenty of reason to claim the kill: he's claimed vig.

-Don't think that Strege is clear but the way he's playing his role doesn't read like mafia.

How, why? Same to Bizz I don't see how he's not acting like Mafia when his kill is so very pro-scum.

(This is Strege)

I thought of it as a Eurykins attack. I didn't like his argument and wanted him to justify it, to prove to me that he was putting effort into the read instead of just jamming Parr into scum tropes like I thought he was.

I guess but you're still subtlety defending him by attacking people's logic against him. At the end of the day you never really pressured him over anything. You never gave even a hint that you thought he was scummy and went so far to attack people's cases on him because they were bad. Why is this, and this goes to everyone else in the game, a good target for you to shoot? Why is Furet someone from the town thinks is a good idea to shoot over Kay, who is going to be a major contender for the chopping block today if the end of yesterday, or Rein who was his leading scumread? I understand that "too dumb to be true" is a thing but there's also scum getting away with non pro town plays in plain sight because of it. I believe there is a difference between the two and you are definitely on the right hand side because noone from the town in your shoes would shoot Furet.

Kay's post is ok but I kinda feel like she's dodging recent developments, talking about Refa when he's not really a topic of conversation anymore, defending herself and not having anything new for her Rein case. What do you think of Strege's shot? Am actually happier because I know who she suspects now and the reasoning is a lot less lazy than it was with Shinori and Prims. Boron's content is a lot better than Scorri's too but I'm worried this is just a sub looking really townie because that happens a lot. Keeping my opinion of her open.

Strege > Rein > Kay >> Boron

[charlie_]

I feel like scum!Strege would make up better reasoning to justify the shot than the one he gave. I also don't see how his kill was super pro scum aside from the role I guess, but that relies on a night 1 scan and is kinda shaky. I don't feel like Furet would've been super threatening to the mafia otherwise.

[Zkirsche]

I think Furet was in the position of *not really super townie but not a lynch candidate* and considering his role was unknown it feels like an easily justified kill taking out someone who isn't going to be lynched. I understand when you say his reasoning is sub-par for scum but sometimes scum slip up and I think his actions speak for themselves here.

[Strege]

Quote, why would you vote Rein? You haven't levelled an argument against him since D1, though you've mentioned him a few times.

mafia!Strege has plenty of reason to claim the kill: he's claimed vig.

[...]

I guess but you're still subtlety defending him by attacking people's logic against him. At the end of the day you never really pressured him over anything. You never gave even a hint that you thought he was scummy and went so far to attack people's cases on him because they were bad. Why is this, and this goes to everyone else in the game, a good target for you to shoot? Why is Furet someone from the town thinks is a good idea to shoot over Kay, who is going to be a major contender for the chopping block today if the end of yesterday, or Rein who was his leading scumread? I understand that "too dumb to be true" is a thing but there's also scum getting away with non pro town plays in plain sight because of it. I believe there is a difference between the two and you are definitely on the right hand side because noone from the town in your shoes would shoot Furet.

Kay's post is ok but I kinda feel like she's dodging recent developments, talking about Refa when he's not really a topic of conversation anymore, defending herself and not having anything new for her Rein case. What do you think of Strege's shot? Am actually happier because I know who she suspects now and the reasoning is a lot less lazy than it was with Shinori and Prims. Boron's content is a lot better than Scorri's too but I'm worried this is just a sub looking really townie because that happens a lot. Keeping my opinion of her open.

Strege > Rein > Kay >> Boron

I thought I was pretty townread coming out of D1 so there's no reason for me to have done that. Also, why would I have killed Prims, who was basically advocating me?

I don't think I attacked people's cases; I attacked one person's case. You're asking me why I thought Parr was a good target but I already explained that to the best of my ability.

Kay and Rein were pushing people and getting responses more, building interactions and the whole shtick, in comparison.

I'll be back in 4-5 hours.

[Zkirsche]

I thought you shot objection?

[Zkirsche]

Pretty sure that's a slip.

[euklyd]

[setupspec=re: Strege]

[spoiler=legit spoiler tags]Is it really reasonable for the Undercover Cops to have TWO kills per night, though?

I mean, Strege's shots don't make him obvtown, and could make sense for mafia to make as well, but I don't think it's likely that scum have two kills, and the way he handled his claims is giving me townvibes.

...but setupspec is bad and all that, soooo

[/setupspec]

hm.

I'm gonna be re-reading Grass, Kay, Refa (and probably Manix, since Manix was gonna tunnel Refa today before he was shot).

I think there was someone else, but I can't remember who.

Oh also I want Poly to start saying things.

I just re-read his entire ISO in ~7 minutes and there were all of 3-4 content posts, all of them D1. Some actual content would be nice.

[euklyd]

Also I'm not sure what to think of that "Also, why would I have killed Prims, who was basically advocating me?"
Like, nobody mentioned Prims...

[Strege]

If you believe there are no itps then I killed prims too

[euklyd]

If you believe there are no itps then I killed prims too

There are no ITPs.

More importantly, what does this even mean?

[Percivalé]

wait strege what exactly are you saying I'm confused

[Sunwoo]

No, he was nullish. It may be useful to note that this is my first time as vig and I'll admit that my reasoning is probably flawed.

[...]

Parr wasn't a lynch candidate but it would be pretty easy to say "Parr's lack of content D2 now that people have stopped pushing him is bugging me" and hold a vote on him for half of a phase. If you only leave alive people who don't have a lot of scumreads that gets a lot worse later in the game.

Strege, even if Parrhesia was null, didn't you have any scum reads that you would've preferred to shoot over the guy who you felt was null? Again, I can see what you're getting at and I hadn't any problems with your earlier content, but I still can't make sense of your reasons for shooting Parrhesia and it's bothering me a bit.

Rereading Grassbridger, my thoughts on him still haven't changed. He was tunneling Prims and Refa really hard on D1 and D2, but his votes against them looked more like a "retaliation" because they suspected him or had a case on him, and spent more time defending himself against them than actually pushing their cases. "People who suspect you aren't scum just because they suspect you" comes into mind here (although he did drop it after Kay called him out on it).

Also, what do you think of Refa now? You never actually dropped your suspicion on him last phase and said you would give him a more detailed read. I see nothing about Refa, whether you still find him scummy or your opinion on him has shifted or why you find Kay worse than him. What happened to that read?

Kay, why is your vote on Rein? The last thing I remember you mentioning about him was that his "ISO was full of waffles", but that was a while ago. Why is he worse than anyone else you suspect right now?

Even after rereading Refa's ISO and the end of D2 I am still not sure what to make of his vote switch, and I think it could go both ways anyway. However, one thing that bothers me is that I can't tell whether he wanted to lynch Kay more than Shinori at the end of D2. He said that he'd vote Shinori but didn't want to hammer because he was at L-1 (which is understandable) and voted Kay in his next post, but then it sounded like he was trying to get Kay lynched over Shinori before he switched his mind at the last minute and voted Shinori anyway? This feels a bit odd to me, and I'm not sure I like it.

##Unvote

##Vote: Grassbridger

I still find Kay scummy, but Grassbridger completely dropping his previous scum read with nary a mention of any kind is really bugging me, especially considering Refa's actions at the end of D2. Also, you said you would reread SB and Rein. So where are your thoughts on them?

[Sunwoo]

And massive cut. Strege, why are you talking about Prims?

[euklyd]

Okay so.

I'm not seeing a whole lot of scumminess or towniness from Grass, and his emotion is reading more to me like frustrated town, but Boron makes a good point about Grass dropping his primary scumspect.

And I'm still feeling weird about the ITP-/Usurper-spec.

Leaning scum, but not by a whole lot.

I need to read more, but I have class now, so that'll have to come later.

[Kay]

I guess it's unlikely that Strege is mafia and claiming kills.

Anyway I don't think Strege would claim kills as scum (Undercover Cop) and Paper essentially confirmed to me that there are no ITPs harmful to town (Mafia), as implied in my wincon. (He also confirmed that scum have the town wincon, so I'm not bothered about saying this.)

What's your reasoning? Scum have claimed vig before. Also, I think it's possible scum have a limited number of extra kills, given that setupspec all seems to agree they'd primarily have investigative roles (not necessarily the most useful thing for scum), so it could balance out.

[Strege]

I mentioned Prims because if you're going to argue that I'm scum you have to consider scum kills.

Boron, I did have scumreads, but I can push those in the day. I thought vigs were supposed to shoot inactives unless they were really sure, and I'm not really sure (especially after the Objection shot) so I extended the inactive logic.

My meeting went long so I'll post in the morning if I can. Also, I can't really respond to "Strege what are you talking about" without repeating everything I've said.

[Sunwoo]

Boron, I did have scumreads, but I can push those in the day. I thought vigs were supposed to shoot inactives unless they were really sure, and I'm not really sure (especially after the Objection shot) so I extended the inactive logic.

But vigs don't exist just to shoot inactives, and I don't think vigs should prioritize shooting inactive players when they actually have scum reads. Yes, you can push your scum reads in the day, but there's no guarantee that people will agree with your cases. And in situations where a player just comes off so scummy that they're almost certain to be lynched or a major wagon target the following day, shooting them gets a flip without having to waste a day actually lynching them.

I need to think about whether I feel Strege's logic is actually scummy or not.

[BBM]

Votals

Rein (2): Strege, Kay

Strege (1): kirsche

j00 (1): Levity

Levity (2): j00, SB

Kay (1): Grassbridger

Grassbridger (1): Boron

Not Voting (4): Euklyd, Refa, Rein, Poly

7 to lynch. You have a bit under 37.5 hours left.

[MRDRHAWK]

ugh it's 12:30 and my eyes are bugging out from playing Xillia all day

##Vote: Strege because I thought the whole claiming the N1 kill on Prims thing was completely out of nowhere and makes him look super bad

also I'm on my phone so fuck bolding

I'll do an actual post later, but seriously if anyone received my role PM last night let me know asap

[j00]

walls of text

[spoiler=quote]@via: where did i waffle on shinori? i called him out for his sparse content being bad and voted him later, i never retracted that or said "wow shinori could be town after all" and he did a shit job defending himself. i still don't like you doing all the stuff you find scummy yourself, like waffling on me until this phase and not elaborating many of your votes

i think i stated my case on you a lot of times and it's not like i can yell at people for not voting you, others have also found you scummy and if i started hounding them i'd really be tunneling. dropping a scumread just because others aren't reacting doesn't automatically mean you're wrong, as paperblade knows

that said, i'll have to do a reread to try to update my thoughts, but about this phase

[spoiler=strege]

If you believe there are no itps then I killed prims too

this argument is weird, your logic here is:
if strege is scum
and scum killed prims
-> then strege killed prims

why aren't you considering the fact that separate scum could have done the kill? i get what you're implying, since prims and manix are still unclaimed they'd have to be the scum kills, and with strege's kills un-cc'd if strege was scum there'd be two scum kills each night which seems unbalanced.
it's just not a good argument since it's based on setupspec, while scum having two factional kills is bs, an extra limited/conditional kill isn't.

have to reread strege since he hasn't bugged me before this phase, but his choice of target bothers me too since he had a scum read on kay last phase, and his rein vote today is based on stuff before N2. even if you can push scumreads at day, a vigshot is far more likely to kill your target than your vote is, so if you kill an inactive at least kill an inactive you think are going to flip scum

also poly are you even reading?? strege's not claiming the prims kill, he's making a weird setupspec argument about how he'd have to have killed prims IF he was scum and jesus that's a horrible vote

the only thing poly's done all game is coasting on his claim and dropping consolidation votes, that's literally it
since manix died and your claim's not proven give us reads at least instead of top scumhunting like

Yes, if anyone got my PM, please claim as such so we may lynch your scummy ass

i mean in the context of a game where mafia is town and your claim's not proven you shouldn't act like you're confirmed town already

@grass: since usurper seems to be town, i don't really think we should try hunt and lynch him, as we're not even aware what his entire wincon is he might not even need euklyd dead

boron's already mentioned the fact about you dropping your refa case completely, but in this post you mention rereading SB and Rein, have you got any opinions on them?

@refa: making a post now since the last 24 hours