Inception Mafia

[Grace]

Curly Brace's Tailor claim: Not sure what to make of it. I sort of understand the role, but I don't see it as one that's on par with a Miller claim (high priority to claim ASAP), nor do I see it as a smart move.

this is what tells me you actually ignored my explanations of why I claimed. don't pretend otherwise, because I well stated that I look bad to rolecops, multiple times (at least once, and another just then)

Maybe it's my lack of experience with seeing/playing in a game with one, but the random claim seemed really unncessary and probably endangered himself moreso than helped us townies. Idk, I don't feel great about it.

you played in unnamed, where there was one. while you may have been lynched d1 (because of miller stuff), you should have still seen what happened. i'm calling significant BS here.

Euklyd's Double-Vote claim: Lol, could be a hidden vote like my V game, or else he's lying. Like the above claim, it feels like the claim was unnecessary and just endangers the claimer moreso than it's worth to claim. (If it showed up on the votals, then it does; if it didn't, then there would be no need to claim it until you needed to?).

this just feels like fearmongering. why should it matter if it endangers the claimant? a hidden doublevote means accidental hammers, etc. others have explained this.

basically eury's mostly mudslinging the claims without thinking much about the actual context.

[Not sure if the above claims are just there to throw us all off, or if they're legit. Wtf is this game and its claims? >_>]

this reads as major uncertainty almost for the sake of doubling back on her own opinions. which are above.

This seemed a bit prickly/defensive for the RVS post that Shinori had (especially since he just LOL voted me and not him (Curly),

it's because he was like "oh his claim looks bad but i'm not going to do anything about it, instead lets do useless shit instead of progressing the gamestate. it's not defensive at all, it's an attack.

And then prodding him here for choosing to RVS vote (because he merely listed down his thoughts of someone else semi-legit while making his RVS vote)? Seems unnecessary.

see above. you're still ignoring my content and taking it completely out of context. if you have something to work with, you shouldn't be rvs voting because it stagnates the gamestate.

In addition, listing someone as a "scum candidate", imo, isn't saying they're insta-scum, but that they have the chance TO be scum? So I'm not sure if that in itself was an over-reaction of Prim's comment regarding Quote.

it was still bullshit. bullshit doesn't fly with me, no matter who it's against.

Tl;dr:Null regarding the claim, and overall, null, but leaning a bit scummy due to reactions and posts against Shinori and Prims.

your words belie your thoughts. you clearly think there's a problem with my claim and it's influencing your read (see top of post for the quotes in question), so i don't think you're being completely honest.

##Unvote

##Vote: Eury

I like this better.

rein needs more opinions. i skimmed his iso and all I got was opinions on me/furet. that's it. for whatever point of D1 this is, it's bad. his vote is also still on me, and has been since ED1, to the exclusion of pretty much everyone else. would still lynch here.

[Grace]

1. I refute the claim that "there is no risk to claim it". For one, yes, it is logical for millers to do so- that I understand. However, even in the game I saw Bluedoom claim miller, I believe it was D2 that people were beginning to question the validity of said claim, even as it is logical for a miller to claim ASAP.

then that's the problem of the claimant. why is that relevant to someone's alignment? why is it relevant at all? what is the actual point of bringing it up?

In addition, claiming ANY role in-thread has its share of risks. Docs/Cops risk getting shot, as can double-voters and lovers/masons. It can also give the scum a better idea of what to expect in terms of what town has in terms of utility and strengths.

...that's why cops/docs/whatever stay hidden as long as possible????

[Prims]

Okay yeah I don't really like Rein anymore, when he voted Manix ED1 that was fine, now people have been squabbling back and forth a lot and all he posts is responses to people mad at him. Is Manix still scum?

Via's defense of Furet is super awkward; I agree Furet reads like somebody who hasn't been playing mafia but how is it townie instead of just null? He could have rolled either alignment. Basically white knighting for the sake of white knighting imo.

Furet himself frustrates me because like... okay, you haven't played this game in ages; yes, it's still the same game but also people who played back when you did were Not Very Good At It, so some of the old gameplay theory is gonna be flawed. Just because D1 is a crapshoot doesn't make it a good idea to sit back and do jack shit, in fact that tends to result in D2 being just as bad. Plus D1 scum lynches have happened as a result of people actually trying.

@Refa: Why are Rein's posts townie, especially when he returns to defend himself but ignores everything else?

I'm super confused about basically this whole thing, so please bear with me for a moment. Is the question you wanted an explanation of "Why am I a scum candidate?" Why did you think that asking a question of your own would be an easier way to move the game along than answering the question?

What do you find scummy, and what do you now find scummy?

1. the other option would have been

"why am I a scum candidate"

"you aren't I was just playin'"

"oh"

2. didn't have any solid reads at the time I posted that. as for right now:

- Rein seems underwhelming for not doing anything now that the ED1 flak against him blew over. I would vote him.

- Via's posts are eyeroll-worthy. A lot of them irk me but I'm not confident enough to vote them.

- I think Strege/SB have good cases on Poly and would sheep that but if he's getting a sub there's not a lot to be done there.

- kirsche is still A Thing but I doubt votes are going to pile up on him due to the circumstances.

##Unvote

##Vote: Rein

I'm not really feeling this game right now; kind of wonder if the scum are mostly in the inactives.

[Eurykins]

Sigh. What a headache this game is becoming, in terms of the silliest/stupidest arguments.

1. I partially understood it, as I stated. In addition, I saw the rolecop issue, but I still do not see it on par as Miller claims. That is my opinion of the role that I'm entitled to, and thus influences my opinions towards whether they should be outright claimed or not. Correct or not, that's where my stance is and will be.

2. Unnamed was my own issue, which I know and realized early on. However, as stated above, I don't see it as "Must be claimed ASAP" just due to the fact that "MOST TAILORS ARE SCUM-BASED ROLES." Millers claim because they are shown as SCUM flat out; assuming that some roles are strictly scum-based as opposed to town-based is an error in itself. Especially if/when bastard games or role adjustments have been made by the creators of games.

3. How is my concern regarding the double-voter claiming a bad one? If Euklyd's a townie with it, then at any point, if he poses a significant risk to scum in any way/shape/form, and they want to eliminate the voting power, who can they easily snipe now? On the other hand, if he's scum, well, WHO WOULD CLAIM IT OPENLY AS SCUM? Probably few to none. Or so we're left to believe. EIther way, the risk is still there, and you could argue all day and night over it, but unless we have multiple docs/jail keepers/protectors/etc. floating around who can magically protect our double-voter, tailor, and anyone else we might want to keep alive, all we're doing at this point is letting them know "THIS IS WHAT TOWNIES (or those who are claiming to be as such) HAVE TO WORK WITH SO FAR.". God forbid they end up having a rolecop on their side- now they know who NOT to waste scans on.

4. People were still posting RVS posts regardless. Imo, so long as it's still generally in that state/time in the thread, people are free to RVS vote their hearts out in their first post of the game. The only reason why you had an issue with his vote is that he claimed to have seen something that caught his attention prior to placing the vote. Otherwise, you would've had no issue at all with his vote, unless I'm mistaken about that.

5. How was it "Bullshit" at the time? If, at that time, Quote still hadn't posted any content or anything, how can someone who has yet to post/contribute to the thread (with several pages of content already) getting the label of "COULD BE SCUM" for it bullshit, unless there's something floating around regarding that person that the rest of us don't know?

6. *facepalms* Null read = I'm not sure how to interpret it, meaning that I couldn't say for sure at that time whether it came off as townish or scummy? The overall read was the gut reads/strongest reads I was getting from you more due to your actions/responses, not solely from the claim itself. I don't see the problem with my tl;dr assertions.

7. My point was the fact that, EVERYTHING WE POST, SAY, DO, CLAIM, ETC. in thread will HAVE ITS RISKS. You're saying that claiming your role and Euklyd's role out loud has no risks, when there are! Every actions have their consequences, good and bad- so yes, we have less chances of getting incorrect/questionable role cop information now that your claim is out, if it even means/implies that you're townie (which, at this point, I'm doubting a bit more). But there are still other risks that are lurking about, which you're refusing to see, and you're labeling my arguments as being incorrect/inaccurate as a result.

8. Best case scenario: Yeah, they hide as long as possible. But with more claims popping up, if we even end up having cops/docs whatevs, how long do you really think it'll take between night kills and any sort of investigative roles they might have to pull them out? The more needless information regarding the roles and what we have at our disposal we end up saying, the more information they have to work with. Simple as that.

[Eurykins]

**Eh, random Prims post, darn it. Above post = Responding to Curly's posts.

[Grace]

5. How was it "Bullshit" at the time? If, at that time, Quote still hadn't posted any content or anything, how can someone who has yet to post/contribute to the thread (with several pages of content already) getting the label of "COULD BE SCUM" for it bullshit,

you tell me. oh wait, you exactly nailed my exact point. you can't call someone scum when they have no content ED1. you may have also missed that they ~were sleeping~ and hence could not contribute to the thread. please read context.

7. My point was the fact that, EVERYTHING WE POST, SAY, DO, CLAIM, ETC. in thread will HAVE ITS RISKS. You're saying that claiming your role and Euklyd's role out loud has no risks, when there are!

the benefits easily outweigh the risks. welcome to mafia. if everything has a risk, and you want to be as safe as possible (which is evident from your posts), clearly, we should never do anything. which does not work. and you know who wants to be really safe? scum

[Grace]

also further context for the "negative utility roles claim asap": it's not just miller that claim straight away. PGO's/Grannies (kill people who visit) generally claim asap so people don't kill themselves on them. we haven't seen one in a game for ages, but that's beside the point.

[Prims]

Manix, where is the scum intent in Eury's posts?

"she was mean to me :( :( :(" isn't what I'm looking for here.

[euklyd]

Euklyd's Double-Vote claim: Lol, could be a hidden vote like my V game, or else he's lying. Like the above claim, it feels like the claim was unnecessary and just endangers the claimer moreso than it's worth to claim. (If it showed up on the votals, then it does; if it didn't, then there would be no need to claim it until you needed to?).

[snip]

**And thanks for posting up the ISO's- made it a bit easier to read through/work out this post.

I didn't know it wouldn't show up, and I was too stupid to ask... ¬_¬

Anyways it's super easy to prove, if you want to do that.

oh no I enabled a massive wall You're welcome

@Refa:

1. I understand the importance of his claim and why it'd help us- however, it still doesn't change the fact that saying it/claiming it outright has put him at risk, moreso than if he'd said nothing.

@Curly Brace:

1. I said, even in the large post, that I understood the claim and some of the reasons behind it (so I'd apppreciate if you wouldn't assume that "I'd clearly seem to have ignored it"). However, as I stated regarding the double-vote claim by Euklyd, just because your action had meaning/purpose still doesn't remove/absolve the high risks involved with claiming it aloud and what it means for the scum lurking around.

So basically, you should keep quiet if something poses a risk to you rather than outing it for a potential benefit to the Town.

I'm a bit out of sorts and am rather busy, but atm I am happiest lynching with Prims. Eury and Quote are maybe pinging me, but they'd both need re-reads and I don't have a lot of time or energy.

Not really feeling the Rein wagon.

BTW since I might not have a chance to say this later today I will be gone much of tomorrow because I'm judging a robotics tournament.

pedit: cut like a billion times. I wish I could think/type faster.

[euklyd]

also further context for the "negative utility roles claim asap": it's not just miller that claim straight away. PGO's/Grannies (kill people who visit) generally claim asap so people don't kill themselves on them. we haven't seen one in a game for ages, but that's beside the point.

I was a delayed PGO in Fakeclaim, so there's that.

[Prims]

Eury and Quote are maybe pinging me, but they'd both need re-reads and I don't have a lot of time or energy.

Why is the only other person voting your #1 suspect pinging you when most of their content is about voting your #1 suspect?

[euklyd]

Why is the only other person voting your #1 suspect pinging you when most of their content is about voting your #1 suspect?

~vibes~

That's why I said I need to reread.

[Grace]

responding in pieces because scattered brains are the best

Sigh. What a headache this game is becoming, in terms of the silliest/stupidest arguments.

1. I partially understood it, as I stated. In addition, I saw the rolecop issue, but I still do not see it on par as Miller claims. That is my opinion of the role that I'm entitled to, and thus influences my opinions towards whether they should be outright claimed or not. Correct or not, that's where my stance is and will be.

3. How is my concern regarding the double-voter claiming a bad one? If Euklyd's a townie with it, then at any point, if he poses a significant risk to scum in any way/shape/form, and they want to eliminate the voting power, who can they easily snipe now? On the other hand, if he's scum, well, WHO WOULD CLAIM IT OPENLY AS SCUM? Probably few to none.

so you think, based upon this logic, that since scum is unlikely to claim hidden doublevoter, that euklyd is more likely town? why do you doubt the claim then?

4. People were still posting RVS posts regardless. Imo, so long as it's still generally in that state/time in the thread, people are free to RVS vote their hearts out in their first post of the game. The only reason why you had an issue with his vote is that he claimed to have seen something that caught his attention prior to placing the vote. Otherwise, you would've had no issue at all with his vote, unless I'm mistaken about that.

have a medal, you nailed it. if you make statements in thread that could allow you to progress the gamestate, you probably should follow through with them, otherwise you look like you want to hold the gamestate stagnant, which scum wants.

[Grace]

i messed up. ignore the first part before 3. quoted.

[Grace]

Manix, where is the scum intent in Eury's posts?

"she was mean to me :( :( :(" isn't what I'm looking for here.

her words and thoughts are contradictory in her accusations.

[Grace]

to the point where she's probably hiding something.

[Eurykins]

@Curly Brace:

And yet inactivity in itself can be scummy. In my books, and more often than not (even as I posted), most games to me are played "Scummy until proven clean." If/when people post and show themselves as being logical, clean, and otherwise reasonable, then I have no reason to object. Unless they do, however, there's always the doubt floating around until they themselves rememdy it.

I believe I also posted regarding Quote having been asleep (I mentioned that I think I saw that)? However, it was your reaction of jumping the gun, as opposed to letting Quote herself speak up when she got back. Why couldn't you leave her to defend herself when she got online and started posting? And why did you snap at Prims for saying that "she could potentially be scum" when we had no idea whether she was town or scum based on no activity whatsoever? Why did you seem to get over-protective when, you yourself just asserted: NO ONE WOULD KNOW 'CAUSE THEY HAVEN'T POSTED YET. On that basis alone, no wagon/case could have strongly been started against Quote for it, and you should've known it.

I also didn't say that we are to play without risks. Then nothing would get done. But then you said this:

@eury: there's no risk to claiming it aloud though? people policy claim miller and they don't get shit for it. plus, I can idle, so all it does is inform rolecops that i am definitely tailor, so they don't autolynch me when they get a tailor result, due to tailor being seen as a scum role more often than not. you're making this issue more of a problem than it should be.

You're now telling me that NO risk was involved with the actions taken so far within in this thread? So either your actions had no risk, and thus contributed NOTHING to progress the game, or you're lying to me. Which is it?

Regarding Euklyd's claim: I always question claims, no matter who it's from. Fakeclaims exist for a reason, and there is no reason NOT to question a claim, in its legitimacy and its purpose.

[Percivalé]

I'd quote Prim's post but I'm on phone

But could you maybe not word my defense of Furet as 'white-knighting' since it makes me uncomfortable outside of a mafia context, sorry u_u also why are my posts eyeroll worthy to you? Is it because I'm being really lazy because if it is I won't deny I've been lazy.

[Eurykins]

to the point where she's probably hiding something.

Well, I'll be damned. You got me there, shoot.

It's called my role PM. Everyone here has one, and aside from two people who've openly claimed (so long as said claims are trustworthy/honest), we all are. Mafia games are tricky like that, sorry. ;/

[Grace]

And why did you snap at Prims for saying that "she could potentially be scum" when we had no idea whether she was town or scum based on no activity whatsoever?

i really really get the feeling you haven't been reading my posts, or are choosing to ignore when I do explain things. i'll let you go through my iso to find the answer to this.

Why did you seem to get over-protective when, you yourself just asserted: NO ONE WOULD KNOW 'CAUSE THEY HAVEN'T POSTED YET. On that basis alone, no wagon/case could have strongly been started against Quote for it, and you should've known it.

prims' post originally (and still does) feel like it was a legitimate assertion over an intended reaction test. not sure if I quite explained that well enough before, but it's here now. ergo, I called prims out for bullshit because of it.

You're now telling me that NO risk was involved with the actions taken so far within in this thread? So either your actions had no risk, and thus contributed NOTHING to progress the game, or you're lying to me. Which is it?

um. I was referring to "no risk" being my claim, not the entire thread. you're taking my quote completely out of context. when did I ever state that all the actions in thread had no risk? quote it exactly and i'll concede, but I don't think you'll be able to

[Grace]

actually holy shit that's really bad. i really want eury lynched now

[Prims]

also why are my posts eyeroll worthy to you? Is it because I'm being really lazy because if it is I won't deny I've been lazy.

Well it's hard not to roll your eyes when somebody says they're "89% certain" you're scum when you have a town role PM. Furthermore, why do you care what I think about your posts if I'm obviously scum? It makes no sense to go from "That being said more people should be voting Prims wtf" to the above. This is incongruent as fucc; a lot moreso than any inconsistencies Manix has been ripping on Eury for. Beyond that, for somebody apparently certain I'm scum you've done nothing to convince other people to vote me.

Not really too hot on the Eury case because it's not like she was using her opinions on the claims to justify her votes... I read her posts more as "Man I don't know how I feel about these claims guys" rather than "These claims are very suspicious and you guys should be suspicious of them too".

[Percivalé]

Prims you've been waffly and vague about me all day and you keep saying shit like that but I just don't really understand. I guess I just get paranoid.

[Eurykins]

If you want me so badly lynched, then go vote happy on me all you want, Curly. I will say that there is absolutely nothing to gain from my lynch, and by your reactions/trying to wagon me off, I'm willing to bet that at least half of the people I have on my priority list/reads are probably scum.

Regarding the "Risk" aspect: Whether it applied to JUST YOU or to the entire thread didn't matter. What YOU just said did though:

um. I was referring to "no risk" being my claim, not the entire thread. you're taking my quote completely out of context. when did I ever state that all the actions in thread had no risk? quote it exactly and i'll concede, but I don't think you'll be able to

According to earlier, risks MUST be taken to further progress the game, as playing safely and saying nothing gets nothing done. So, AGAIN, either you just said yourself that your claim had no risk, thus it was MEANINGLESS to do and served NO purpose in benefiting the progress of the thread, or you're lying through your teeth saying your action held no risk. Again, WHICH IS IT?

prims' post originally (and still does) feel like it was a legitimate assertion over an intended reaction test. not sure if I quite explained that well enough before, but it's here now. ergo, I called prims out for bullshit because of it.

Imo, that just means you bit down on Prim's reaction test/bait. HARD.

##Unvote

##Vote Curly Brace

[Percivalé]

Idkkk yeah I wish I was good at the whole convincing thing. I can put together a more coherent case when I have computer access. I've been meaning to but it's been hard for me to get into the game.

Not feeling eury case either btw