Chaos and Law Hero? Maybe Fe Hero and Smt Hero?

[Jedi]

As we know in Smt we usually have the main character, Law and Chaos hero. Will we have some of the previous Law and Chaos heroes appear? Or will the choice simply become Fire Emblem or SmT route? With the usual middle ground no sides, Unless the two sides team up to defeat a greater foe such as a legion of doom sorts of foe combination

[Soledai]

It feels like making the choice between FE hero and SMT hero would be a bit... hmmm, I'm sure you meant it like in the LNC cases, but what wouldn't be bad at all is making diverging paths like Nocturne or Devil Survivor or something similar

Edited January 22, 2014 by Soledai

[Jedi]

Well I was just trying to think of what they may do. Devil Survivor style of choice may be better. We might have an extreme amount of factions

[The Radiant Hero]

Well it's pretty much in line with Tellius then, because of Ashera and Yune, Ashera goddess of Order and Yune goddess of Chaos. It would be awesome to choose your Hero depending on that path you pick....I think there will be Chaos Heroes and Law Heroes for both franchises.

[NoNameAtAll]

I dunno...Ashera followed YHVH's dickery to a tee. But Yune went a bit more middle of the road compared to good 'ole Lucifer. There was still a clear divide of good and evil.

If anything, I'd sooner want to see the surrealism of FE characters meeting Stephen.

Yes, the only SMT I've played to extreme length was IV, but still.

[Soledai]

Well I was just trying to think of what they may do. Devil Survivor style of choice may be better. We might have an extreme amount of factions

Your idea was fine, it's pretty unique too when you think about it, in my case I was thinking about the potential roster size, whereas your idea looked to be more about the story(Which I approve)

If anything, I'd sooner want to see the surrealism of FE characters meeting Stephen.

I don't outright ask for anything from this game, but this is the one thing I want with absolute certainy

[LeDom]

All the speculation...I love it. It would be nice if Intelligent Systems/Atlus would at least announce the premise of the game soon enough.
Maybe a little off topic but I don't want to start another topic just for that question, am I the only one wondering if Fire Emblem characters would keep their original attire, or blend in and wear modern clothes. It would be cool to see Ike dressed like a delinquant, for example.

[Refa]

I dunno...Ashera followed YHVH's dickery to a tee. But Yune went a bit more middle of the road compared to good 'ole Lucifer. There was still a clear divide of good and evil.

If anything, I'd sooner want to see the surrealism of FE characters meeting Stephen.

Yes, the only SMT I've played to extreme length was IV, but still.

I don't think SMT is as clear cut between good and evil as you make it out to be.

Also I wouldn't mind interesting moral choices with FE characters. SO DO I KILL THE EARLY GAME BANDITS, BE THEIR BEST FRIENDS, OR KILL THEM AND THE PEOPLE I'M WORKING WITH L/C/N GO GO GO. Uhhh...I probably didn't do a good job proving my reply to NoNameAtAll or my point about interesting moral choices...Dammit.

[Jedi]

I don't think SMT is as clear cut between good and evil as you make it out to be.

Also I wouldn't mind interesting moral choices with FE characters. SO DO I KILL THE EARLY GAME BANDITS, BE THEIR BEST FRIENDS, OR KILL THEM AND THE PEOPLE I'M WORKING WITH L/C/N GO GO GO. Uhhh...I probably didn't do a good job proving my reply to NoNameAtAll or my point about interesting moral choices...Dammit.

I recall the chapter in Path of Radiance with the Bandits holding the priests of Daein hostage. While there the choice meant a stave and a good feeling for protecting them.

But there could be a much darker version of that chapter (would be out of character for Ike and co though).

Little things like that show that IS is certainly thinking about stuff. Same with the choices in Awakening despite them only changing dialog for the most part. I have the feeling with IS and Atlus we will have some interesting paths open to us

[Soledai]

I don't think SMT is as clear cut between good and evil as you make it out to be.

Also I wouldn't mind interesting moral choices with FE characters. SO DO I KILL THE EARLY GAME BANDITS, BE THEIR BEST FRIENDS, OR KILL THEM AND THE PEOPLE I'M WORKING WITH L/C/N GO GO GO. Uhhh...I probably didn't do a good job proving my reply to NoNameAtAll or my point about interesting moral choices...Dammit.

I recall the chapter in Path of Radiance with the Bandits holding the priests of Daein hostage. While there the choice meant a stave and a good feeling for protecting them.

But there could be a much darker version of that chapter (would be out of character for Ike and co though).

Little things like that show that IS is certainly thinking about stuff. Same with the choices in Awakening despite them only changing dialog for the most part. I have the feeling with IS and Atlus we will have some interesting paths open to us

I'm glad to see I'm not the only thinking about things like this, I would very much love to see the moral factor present in FExSMT, no to mention a FE in general, but that's just because I like branch paths and multiple endings and so on(I'm a sucker for stories like that)

[Refa]

I recall the chapter in Path of Radiance with the Bandits holding the priests of Daein hostage. While there the choice meant a stave and a good feeling for protecting them.

But there could be a much darker version of that chapter (would be out of character for Ike and co though).

Little things like that show that IS is certainly thinking about stuff. Same with the choices in Awakening despite them only changing dialog for the most part. I have the feeling with IS and Atlus we will have some interesting paths open to us

I think FE games have a good deal of choice, but not really moral choice. Like even if you kill them with reckless abandon, even when there are no other enemies left, Ike's just like WELL WHOOPS GET FUCKED. Also having characters join and leave due to your alignment (kind of like Ogre Battle but less...opaque? I dunno what word I'm looking for, but I think that was the one) would solve a lot of balance issues the series has, while allowing for more character development and helping to make the player more attached to the characters as a whole (like I get the feeling that's the whole reason FE had permadeath which is why I would totally be for an Ironman mode, but it's like nowadays people either pick Casual or reset when someone dies outside of Tagteam playthroughs or challenge runs or other bizzare scenarios) There are even morally ambiguous villains and situations, but not really much choice you can influence. It's not really a problem from a game design perspective, but I think FE would be a lot better with that kind of stuff in.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Refa

[Soledai]

I wouldn't say FE would be "a lot" better, but would have a lot more... 'depth'? I'd even like to see a case of player being able to switch allegiances depending on his aligment, assuming he isn't the leader of said team(or even if)... or go all the way and make their own faction, But then it would end up more as Langrisser, than Ogre Battle or Tactics Ogre

[Refa]

I wouldn't say FE would be "a lot" better, but would have a lot more... 'depth'? I'd even like to see a case of player being able to switch allegiances depending on his aligment, assuming he isn't the leader of said team(or even if)... or go all the way and make their own faction, But then it would end up more as Langrisser, than Ogre Battle or Tactics Ogre

I dunno, I think FE would be a lot better in general, but maybe that's just me?

Like SMT has really interesting scenarios and settings and moral dilemmas, but outside of a few choice titles the characters just come across as A) a mythological reference of some sort, which is awesome SMT should continue doing that (...it's mostly the villains who fall under this category though) or B) cardboard cutouts that facilitate these choices rather than being interesting in their own right. And I really can't think of how they'd change that while still holding the same awesome demon fusing mythology lovin SMT that I like so much.

Disclaimer: I've only played some of SMT1, SMT4, Strange Journey and beaten both of the Devil Survivors and Persona 4. Mostly I've just read a fuckton about it, I really like the premise of SMT. If you don't think I'm qualified to speak about the series as a whole like I did above...fair enough! Don't blame you.

FE on the other hand I think has a lot more potential because it already has characters that players have bonded with to an extent (let's not talk about the FE13 controversy) and they've already touched on morals from a storytelling/thematic perspective. It'd be easy to envision them going one step further and having your actions be reflected by more than just character death. Like I don't really want a pick this option style thing for normal FE game because I think it can be conveyed through the gameplay. Ugh...I think my point will get lost on a lot of people, here I'll make an example.

So let's say there's some Navarre type character. Brooding swordsman, foggy past that may or may not be tragic, and he doesn't like killing women. But this chick is terrorizing this village. So if you "beat her" (perhaps with some sort of FE5 capture, look I really need sleep I haven't thought this example thoroughly) and opt to let her live, this guy will stick with you because hey same ideals. But if you do kill her, maybe some village peasants will join you instead! It's a kind of give or take that allows for less characters recruited at once and could allow the game to be more balanced as a whole. Not everyone has to be this swingy, of course. Like I'd say your leading party at least should stick with you throughout the game, and definetely your Jeigan (actually this would give more purpose to your Jeigan as a whole). And I think there would need to be some conveiyance early on of this so you don't just lose someone you were training midgame and are like WTF IS THIS BULLSHIT. Like, perhaps some powerful not Jeigan prepromote join you and betray you early on because you didn't agree in ideals or who the fuck cares. This would convey that yes units loyalties can be swayed and you should probably pay attention. Wouldn't hurt to allow people to save when making choices too. Perhaps this could be done better (actually it definetely can) but I'm liking the basic idea here. What say you?

[Soledai]

I dunno, I think FE would be a lot better in general, but maybe that's just me?

Ahh, don't mind me, that's just my 'literal wording' radar working overtime, but it would for sure make them better, but I think I'd prefer if they all didn't play the morality factor hence, just one or two maybe. I mean I wouldn't mind that, but still...

Like SMT has really interesting scenarios and settings and moral dilemmas, but outside of a few choice titles the characters just come across as A) a mythological reference of some sort, which is awesome SMT should continue doing that (...it's mostly the villains who fall under this category though) or B) cardboard cutouts that facilitate these choices rather than being interesting in their own right. And I really can't think of how they'd change that while still holding the same awesome demon fusing mythology lovin SMT that I like so much.

Disclaimer: I've only played some of SMT1, SMT4, Strange Journey and beaten both of the Devil Survivors and Persona 4. Mostly I've just read a fuckton about it, I really like the premise of SMT. If you don't think I'm qualified to speak about the series as a whole like I did above...fair enough! Don't blame you.

FE on the other hand I think has a lot more potential because it already has characters that players have bonded with to an extent (let's not talk about the FE13 controversy) and they've already touched on morals from a storytelling/thematic perspective. It'd be easy to envision them going one step further and having your actions be reflected by more than just character death. Like I don't really want a pick this option style thing for normal FE game because I think it can be conveyed through the gameplay. Ugh...I think my point will get lost on a lot of people, here I'll make an example.

So let's say there's some Navarre type character. Brooding swordsman, foggy past that may or may not be tragic, and he doesn't like killing women. But this chick is terrorizing this village. So if you "beat her" (perhaps with some sort of FE5 capture, look I really need sleep I haven't thought this example thoroughly) and opt to let her live, this guy will stick with you because hey same ideals. But if you do kill her, maybe some village peasants will join you instead! It's a kind of give or take that allows for less characters recruited at once and could allow the game to be more balanced as a whole. Not everyone has to be this swingy, of course. Like I'd say your leading party at least should stick with you throughout the game, and definetely your Jeigan (actually this would give more purpose to your Jeigan as a whole). And I think there would need to be some conveiyance early on of this so you don't just lose someone you were training midgame and are like WTF IS THIS BULLSHIT. Like, perhaps some powerful not Jeigan prepromote join you and betray you early on because you didn't agree in ideals or who the fuck cares. This would convey that yes units loyalties can be swayed and you should probably pay attention. Wouldn't hurt to allow people to save when making choices too. Perhaps this could be done better (actually it definetely can) but I'm liking the basic idea here. What say you?

Hey, it's not how many you've played, it's all in how the knowledge is used, so you're fine.

I like this idea, particularly your actions affecting your morals more than the choices do and with the starting party or the Jeigan staying with you, whichever alignment you become, have you ever played or heard of Growlanser 2? The main character's partner stays with him no matter which route he takes, and I really liked that, but that's neither here nor there...

Like I don't really want a pick this option style thing for normal FE game because I think it can be conveyed through the gameplay. Ugh...I think my point will get lost on a lot of people, here I'll make an example.

Don't worry. I get it at least, I mostly prefer the action over the choices(depending on the game)

As far as the conveying the character's affinity, I'd imagine either they saying something about their beliefs or something like that when they join or meet them if they don't join right away, or have some kind of alignment notifier like the scales in OB64 or something similar

This idea is good, I didn't even think about the capture system, that certainly can add to the proverbial weight of those 'to kill or not to kill' choices, that aren't part of any event scenes or something

Edited January 24, 2014 by Soledai

[Jedi]

I'm really digging all the ideas thrown out there right now.

Also Ogre Battle like alignment would have my approval.

BTW Refa another example would be Rutger there are various supports that have characters calm his rage, like Dayan what of he never met him? He could turn on you out of spite after Bern for final bonus chapter.

[NoNameAtAll]

I don't think SMT is as clear cut between good and evil as you make it out to be.

I...never said SMT is clear cut. When I say YHVH is a dick, I'm talking about his methodology. His ideology is understandable; make everyone equal while possessing total control. It leads to peace, but there's a lack of freedom. Lucifer's usually a bit more subtle in his behavior, but his is the opposite: Complete freedom, but he sows the seeds for anarchy (Granted, even Lucifer admitted that total anarchy wasn't the way. It's just that the strongest of those fighting would be king).

That's what I meant, or at least understand.

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

BTW Refa another example would be Rutger there are various supports that have characters calm his rage, like Dayan what of he never met him? He could turn on you out of spite after Bern for final bonus chapter.

The best example would be FE12 Lunatic. I have touched upon this a bit as a joke before in my FE12 playthrough, but gonna type again for redundancy

In chapter whatever it is where Wendell bitchslapped his foolish student who are having a dogfight. Theres like a bunch of "Hostage" priest that is forced to work for the enemy(or at least the story want to make you believe this is the case).

The game give you a choice to

a. Kill the priest

b. Leave them alone aka Save them

The reason why I bring up Lunatic is specifically to mention the fact that in Normal, Hard, and maniac Mode, you got Silver Card for the trouble, all but making Choice B into an obvious pick. However, in Lunatic, you only got Vulnerary, which means the player have a lot more reason to kill them. For starter it gives delicious EXP and its a good way to say fuck you to IS who trolled the players

Of course being a remake of an old game not to mention FE being FE, this is not touched at all. But with decision making and consequences being a major theme in FE3/12(see: Katarina to an extent, the final chapter speech by Jeigan, Hardin) it won't be that weird if say... Merric or Ellearan refused to join Marth out of disgust if you killed the Priest.

[Refa]

I like this idea, particularly your actions affecting your morals more than the choices do and with the starting party or the Jeigan staying with you, whichever alignment you become, have you ever played or heard of Growlanser 2? The main character's partner stays with him no matter which route he takes, and I really liked that, but that's neither here nor there...

I haven't, but from what I've seen it looks good. Wasn't it made by the people who made Langrisser or something (another game I need to play)?

BTW Refa another example would be Rutger there are various supports that have characters calm his rage, like Dayan what of he never met him? He could turn on you out of spite after Bern for final bonus chapter.

Someone like Raven would be better honestly. Yes, Rutger hates Bern but 1) you're kicking Bern's ass and 2) he doesn't have any particular hatred for the citizens of Bern, so I can't see him leaving if Miledy shows up (although I guess that could be expanded upon). Basically his goal isn't like pure hearted or whatever, but it aligns perfectly with your own. Whereas someone like Raven could end up betraying you later if you don't get his A support with Priscilla or Lucius, for example.

I...never said SMT is clear cut. When I say YHVH is a dick, I'm talking about his methodology. His ideology is understandable; make everyone equal while possessing total control. It leads to peace, but there's a lack of freedom. Lucifer's usually a bit more subtle in his behavior, but his is the opposite: Complete freedom, but he sows the seeds for anarchy (Granted, even Lucifer admitted that total anarchy wasn't the way. It's just that the strongest of those fighting would be king).

That's what I meant, or at least understand.

Sorry, my apologies for misunderstanding you.

[Soledai]

I haven't, but from what I've seen it looks good. Wasn't it made by the people who made Langrisser or something (another game I need to play)?

Yeah, I think it's the same, Growlanser 2 and by extension 3 has some iffy voice acting, but nothing outright bad

Someone like Raven would be better honestly. Yes, Rutger hates Bern but 1) you're kicking Bern's ass and 2) he doesn't have any particular hatred for the citizens of Bern, so I can't see him leaving if Miledy shows up (although I guess that could be expanded upon). Basically his goal isn't like pure hearted or whatever, but it aligns perfectly with your own. Whereas someone like Raven could end up betraying you later if you don't get his A support with Priscilla or Lucius, for example.

This case sounds like the case with Aloser/Arycelle when rejoining Ronway in Tactics Ogre, she'll abandon you in a beat or at least that loyalty will plummet, but with the extra measures, like in this case they won't defect/desert... this also was a case with Jill in PoR, so yeah, like you said, the morality factor was certainly present, even if to a small extent

[Jedi]

Refa you are absolutely correct. Raven would be far more fitting

Hector VS Raven for a possible Final Gaiden if he didn't have his supports filled out with Lucius or Prissy. Possible foreshadowing to Hectors Armads curse of death in battle at the hands of Bern later too.

[Soledai]

This'd be a pretty neat incentive to combine FE 6+7, maybe? But it would be sooo long though

Would Raven be one of those cases where he's an average/above average ally and then an absolute beast as an enemy?

I know I'm not presenting any neat or useful ideas, but I may need someone to say something Watsonesque while I gather my thoughts

[Jedi]

This'd be a pretty neat incentive to combine FE 6+7, maybe? But it would be sooo long though

Would Raven be one of those cases where he's an average/above average ally and then an absolute beast as an enemy?

I know I'm not presenting any neat or useful ideas, but I may need someone to say something Watsonesque while I gather my thoughts

Maybe he'd be like Zeek from TRS and be at whatever stats you left him with.

[Refa]

Refa you are absolutely correct. Raven would be far more fitting

Hector VS Raven for a possible Final Gaiden if he didn't have his supports filled out with Lucius or Prissy. Possible foreshadowing to Hectors Armads curse of death in battle at the hands of Bern later too.

Hahaha, sounds good. Maybe Raven would pop up later in the story too or something, I dunno.

This'd be a pretty neat incentive to combine FE 6+7, maybe? But it would be sooo long though

Would Raven be one of those cases where he's an average/above average ally and then an absolute beast as an enemy?

I know I'm not presenting any neat or useful ideas, but I may need someone to say something Watsonesque while I gather my thoughts

Could go either way really.

[Jedi]

Hahaha, sounds good. Maybe Raven would pop up later in the story too or something, I dunno.

Could go either way really.

Would Matthew be a possible moral deal if he missed Jaffar supports in this case too? Or let alone just hiring him

Could go either way really.

Hahaha, sounds good. Maybe Raven would pop up later in the story too or something, I dunno.

Could go either way really.

[Refa]

No, Matthew is too bro. Obviously there should be some way to recruit Leila.