FE9 LA Tier List

[Espinosa]

Largo can have around the same crit as Boyd in brother bond teams, and single digit crit is still effective if you try to remember all the times 2-4% crits have killed Brom (idk why people tend to not invest into his luck). Largo's boon is having 27 AS and since the immediate associated team with him also has no speed issues (Rolf-Tauroneo-Mia, okay, Tauro could use some wings), the same team could run a proper speed-invested Ena (I'm no longer sure if this is anywhere as effective as the Nasir we saw in the tourney).

You're right that Boyd is easily 2-round KO'd, but so are most units, and Boyd coincidentally 2RKO's many of the people trying to 2RKO him (e.g. base Makalov w/o KW/@WTN).

Boyd is also the best unit for 2HKOing things with a brave weapon, with huge 30 atk and a +hit affinity.

When people say they are disappointed by Boyd, they usually mean they've tried out the standard NihilResolveBoyd and got absolutely use out of either Nihil or Resolve (sometimes a bit of Nihil use in the first two or so rounds). I remember early on AdeptBoyd was really popular, and that one could be really effective (in spite of Adept being a random proc) since an extra strike from Boyd often means something is dying.

Too bad Boyd doesn't support Mia or Marcia or something!

Anyway, when we criticise Boyd for his defence, we shouldn't be forgetting how well he kills things.

Oh and wrt Calill, I really don't think Rexflame should belong in the "main" meta (I think including cut supports is fine for the main metagame, because nothing seems particularly broken and because of all the new options it introduces). Rexflame on Sages is honestly kinda lame, and we should drop that gimmick. 31 AS on a non-Laguz unit is too high considering all the potential 26-27 AS victims, the damage is enormous and Calill also has a tendency to get really dodgetanky with high luck, +avo supports and that +6 avo bonus from Rexflame.

Sages are fine for being the armourkillers of the meta, but Rexflame should probably be as absent from the arena as it is absent from the main game. Compare the application of Excalibur in FE8 arena and how much Rexflame tears through things here. It's heaven and hell.

[Refa]

Parity and + attack supports aren't uncommon either.

Parity is a fair point, although if you're giving Boyd BOTH of the Dracoshields you'd probably be giving him Nihil anyways (otherwise why not just use Largo who has better supports?). They kind of are though. Here are the units with a +Atk affinity;

-Boyd

-Rhys

-Soren

-Mia

-Marcia

-Mist

-Mordecai

-Brom

-Tormod

-Devdan

-Reyson

-Ulki

-Calill

-Geoffrey

And how many of these guys are actually used? Boyd, Mist, Brom, Calill, and Geoffrey (Tormod might be used more now though, I dunno).

[PKL]

Largo can have around the same crit as Boyd in brother bond teams, and single digit crit is still effective if you try to remember all the times 2-4% crits have killed Brom (idk why people tend to not invest into his luck). Largo's boon is having 27 AS and since the immediate associated team with him also has no speed issues (Rolf-Tauroneo-Mia, okay, Tauro could use some wings), the same team could run a proper speed-invested Ena (I'm no longer sure if this is anywhere as effective as the Nasir we saw in the tourney).

You're right that Boyd is easily 2-round KO'd, but so are most units, and Boyd coincidentally 2RKO's many of the people trying to 2RKO him (e.g. base Makalov w/o KW/@WTN).

Boyd is also the best unit for 2HKOing things with a brave weapon, with huge 30 atk and a +hit affinity.

When people say they are disappointed by Boyd, they usually mean they've tried out the standard NihilResolveBoyd and got absolutely use out of either Nihil or Resolve (sometimes a bit of Nihil use in the first two or so rounds). I remember early on AdeptBoyd was really popular, and that one could be really effective (in spite of Adept being a random proc) since an extra strike from Boyd often means something is dying.

Too bad Boyd doesn't support Mia or Marcia or something!

Anyway, when we criticise Boyd for his defence, we shouldn't be forgetting how well he kills things.

Oh and wrt Calill, I really don't think Rexflame should belong in the "main" meta (I think including cut supports is fine for the main metagame, because nothing seems particularly broken and because of all the new options it introduces). Rexflame on Sages is honestly kinda lame, and we should drop that gimmick. 31 AS on a non-Laguz unit is too high considering all the potential 26-27 AS victims, the damage is enormous and Calill also has a tendency to get really dodgetanky with high luck, +avo supports and that +6 avo bonus from Rexflame.

Sages are fine for being the armourkillers of the meta, but Rexflame should probably be as absent from the arena as it is absent from the main game. Compare the application of Excalibur in FE8 arena and how much Rexflame tears through things here. It's heaven and hell.

I think Mak Brom might be contenders for stuff that isnt fine in cut supports. IDK about Rexflame. Remember that the units that use it are very frail. Its not like Calill reaches unhittability or anything. 97% Avo with neph and like +10 more with Shinon isnt that much. Paladins are lame and should suffer anyway :P

[Elieson]

MakBrom is a combo far less susceptible to crits than BoydBrom, because Mak at least has /some/ luck.

Boyd Needs a speedwing, and desperately wants either Icons, Shields, or both.

The commonplace Giffca ORKOs Laguzguardless Boyd without one

Silver Sword+ Ike 2HKO's Boyd without any defensive+speed investment, ORKO if Boyd doesn't have a speedwing (Parity Ike is a common thing, and that easily negates any def bonus from Mist/Brom)

Zihark and arguably, Mia, ORKO Boyd with a Brave Sword unless defensive investment is made

I mean, sure he gives Rolf a sweet +10 crit for early game Bowplay, but even then, opposing Brave Bow!Rolf strikes Boyd and easily leaves him within inches of death, and what's Boyd doing back? One single Silver Axe strike. Sure, 51Atk+Supports is a heavy hit to just about anybody, but the question begs, is it worth it?

Boyd's really easy to get around with common units, and I don't think that the speedwing and skills in which he demands to simply function are reliable enough to net him a position in Top Tier.

Edited May 7, 2014 by Elieson

[Espinosa]

And how many of these guys are actually used? Boyd, Mist, Brom, Calill, and Geoffrey (Tormod might be used more now though, I dunno).

Marcia and Mia are p good, and they even support one another now in the cut supports meta.

I think Mak Brom might be contenders for stuff that isnt fine in cut supports. IDK about Rexflame. Remember that the units that use it are very frail. Its not like Calill reaches unhittability or anything. 97% Avo with neph and like +10 more with Shinon isnt that much. Paladins are lame and should suffer anyway :P

We could always bring back Ike x Oscar (not Ragnell though) to have another support that rivals MakalovxBrom, but Mak x Brom is just a defensive support that may or may not matter (makes Brom as bulky as Gatrie, making him somewhat unnecessary aside from specific support combos), similarly to how Ike and Oscar receive the same amount of damage as they do without each other if they're struck by accurate lance users with +hit supports.

MakBrom is a combo far less susceptible to crits than BoydBrom, because Mak at least has /some/ luck.

Boyd Needs a speedwing, and desperately wants either Icons, Shields, or both.

The commonplace Giffca ORKOs Laguzguardless Boyd without one

Silver Sword+ Ike 2HKO's Boyd without any defensive+speed investment, ORKO if Boyd doesn't have a speedwing (Parity Ike is a common thing, and that easily negates any def bonus from Mist/Brom)

Zihark and arguably, Mia, ORKO Boyd with a Brave Sword unless defensive investment is made

I mean, sure he gives Rolf a sweet +10 crit for early game Bowplay, but even then, opposing Brave Bow!Rolf strikes Boyd and easily leaves him within inches of death, and what's Boyd doing back? One single Silver Axe strike. Sure, 51Atk+Supports is a heavy hit to just about anybody, but the question begs, is it worth it?

Boyd's really easy to get around with common units, and I don't think that the speedwing and skills in which he demands to simply function are reliable enough to net him a position in Top Tier.

Makalov has -2 luck compared to Boyd so idk what you're talking about there. Makalov doesn't die to crits as easily though, if that's what you meant. Brom gets to 14 luck with two icons and stops getting critted by non +crit/Laguz units, latter still having very low (~2%) chances to crit him.

It's just one speedwings, two if you want to counter possible ZMs (rare). You definitely don't want icons desperately, and if you forego shields it just means you will die to VK crits, but that only happens ~30% of the time, so Boyd's far from guaranteed to die as soon.

If Zihark/Mia can 4HKO Boyd with a Brave Sword, the Nihiloyd (+Resolve) variant activates Resolve and is the one who doubles instead. Screwed Dio over in the tourney.

Boyd has several options for starting equipment. Silver Axe for strongest, most accurate strike against sword users attacking him (should he not be critted), Silver Bow for accurate snipe back at enemy bow users (either Snipers or somebody meticulously avoiding getting Boyd into Resolve range with Silver Bow chip on a Paladin), Hand Axe for a bit of both, sacrificing hit rates and power but countering everything. Rolf without defensive investments receives 23/45 HP damage from a Hand Axe counter in a vacuum (no supports), so even one with a robe and a shield or two can get killed by that same Boyd in the next attack (Silver Axe).

Also, I'm not quite sure if this has been tried out but Renewal can really mess with attempts to chip at Boyd, as that +6 HP lets him avoid the KO from the harder attack about to connect.

Even if Boyd is really too underwhelming for Top Tier (which I don't think is the case, as I still think he still functions better than Kieran or Tauroneo, but Tauroneo has the 2 Resolves thing going for him), he's way too good for High tier, which is an argument in favour of Mia/Zihark staying in High and not sliding down, for example.

[General Horace]

I feel like Zihark and Mia are just too underwhelming to be in high tier. If they can't double anything, they're pretty bad, and odds are that there'll be at least one of Makalov/Ike on a team, and a laguz royal, and other common units like paladins and snipers that aren't doubled either. They're not very good against the units they can double either (Runesword Mia isn't terrible against them at the very least).

And Hand Axe Boyd has 125 base hit with a secret book. and most units have around 70 avoid, those aren't good odds.

EDIT: JUST DISCOVERED YOU COULD FORGE THROWING WEAPONS

Edited May 7, 2014 by General Horace

[Elieson]

I feel like Zihark and Mia are just too underwhelming to be in high tier. If they can't double anything, they're pretty bad, and odds are that there'll be at least one of Makalov/Ike on a team, and a laguz royal, and other common units like paladins and snipers that aren't doubled either. They're not very good against the units they can double either (Runesword Mia isn't terrible against them at the very least).

And Hand Axe Boyd has 125 base hit with a secret book. and most units have around 70 avoid, those aren't good odds.

EDIT: JUST DISCOVERED YOU COULD FORGE THROWING WEAPONS

The OP has Forged HandAxe/Javelin hit rates built into it..

Espi, yea, I meant /some/ def, not /some/ luck.

But I'm arguing for Boyd to go to Top of High, as opposed to Bottom of Top tier. In case the tourney didn't illustrate, there's just so many common ways to remove Boyd from the picture. Sure Boyd counters a bunch of things with a heavy hit, but his defensive parameters are in need of something to fix them (be it a Speedwing to help him not get doubled, and/or Icons and Shields to help him not get blicked by the VK that every single team runs), or Resolve, which still burns him down often to a single round of Resolve combat. Top Tier is reserved for people like Ike and Makalov and Giffca, units that barely need any form of investment, or other units that prefer investment of a single aspect (Tauroneo for Stats, since he has innate Resolve and functions fantastic with only investment from Nihil, Calill for Stats, since she has innate Nihil and only demands a single skill from the pot, or Rolf for stats since Deadeye is decent and practically free and comes with many benefits). Boyd kind of wants investment for both stats AND skills, and like I said, he has been taken down easily on multiple occasions, which should illustrate just how easy it is to break Boyd, and why he doesn't belong in Top.

[PKL]

Terrible idea Espi. Unless u want every team to be Mak Brom Ike Oscar Royal lol

[General Horace]

Another thing about Boyd (and other hard hitting units really) is it's harder for them to not knock other units into resolve/wrath range. Although I don't think I've actually ever used Boyd, so all my hate could be unjustified.

[Espinosa]

I'm not even sure the MakBrom support is as good as you say? Everyone seems to favour defence over offence is what I understand from the recent discussion. But really, a Boyd axe whack / snipe can end some units easily, which is more than what some others can claim. But all right, let's keep Ike's Earth support banned for now (besides Zihark obviously).

That said, we should get to ranking the units within each tier. Let's start with the upper one:

Top

Ike (No Ragnell)
Oscar
Boyd
Rolf
Kieran
Makalov
Tauroneo
Giffca
Tibarn

My take would be something like:

Ike (No Ragnell)

Giffca

Makalov
Rolf

Boyd

Tibarn

Oscar
Kieran
Tauroneo

If Brom were also in this tier, I'd place him around where Tauroneo is... Not sure though.

Curious to hear what everyone else thinks, though, esp. considering how a lot of people have played more games than me, namely in the last couple of months.

[General Horace]

Personally I think Brom is better than Tauroneo. He supports much better unit in general with a better affinity, especially since literally every unit he supports is very useable (the worst being Zihark or Nephenee). Tauro has like, uh Rolf and Largo I guess, Ranulf needs similar resources to him, Elincia takes at least one of the energy rings Tauro needs, and Stefan is more or less Zihark with a worse affinity and luck. Sure Resolve is nice to have on two units, but Tauro takes a buttload of resources and usually your Nihil too, making him much more predictable (although Nihil/Resolve Brom is also very commonplace). Plus he's easy for the opposing Nihilist to kill (if they're around) since they'll likely have much better stats.

Brom needs three speedwings to really work though, so that's kind of a strike against him.

But again I'm ranting about a unit i've never used so...

[Espinosa]

Right now three units seem to me to be potential candidates for Top Tier (who aren't already there):

- Brom, as mentioned

- Ena, for being a mini-Nasir that's probably too good for High tier (if metagame matches are held with G-d/Top banned)

- Calill, as advocated by folks like PKL and Elie, Nihil being the main reason for the lobbying

[Baldrick]

Oscar > Boyd. He's more well-rounded, and while I concede that Boyd having 2 Shields makes him very solid, they are very useful for most units so needing them should be a point against him in the bro-off. I agree with Horace on Brom, and Calill is the best way by far to neutralize him, especially with his Makalov support, so she moves up as well.

[PKL]

Brom really just wants 2 wings for Resolve ridiculousness. The guy doubles Giffca and a bunch of units after Resolve. With Nihil and Resolve, I think he is one of the top threats, especially for teams without mag to take him down. He's a beast.

[General Horace]

he's even better with 3 wings though before resolve, since the common 27 speed tier won't even double him, although it still doesn't protect him from Sages i guess. I don't think 36 speed doubles anything special that he wouldn't be able to ORKO with braves anyway other than maybe something like a 32 speed Ranulf or something.

Honestly I don't think Ena is top tier worthy. She needs Nihil to be good, and if you give her nihil, it lets the opponent play around a lot more with thier skills and kill the rest of your team. Nasir didn't have that issue because well, his was innate.

Edited May 8, 2014 by General Horace

[Espinosa]

Brom's definitely going up to Top whenever I move some units around, then.

Leaning towards 'yes' when it comes to Calill (no Rexflame), since her innate Nihil may be about as powerful to have on a team as Tauroneo's Resolve. Quite a resource drain though.

Haven't heard enough about Ena from other players, and we haven't really seen her in action as much as Nasir, so extrapolating can be difficult. How did PKL and Horace perceive her from different sides of that battle Baldrick hosted? I'm having a little trouble making sense out of that match. Regardless, she resembles Nasir aside from lacking in speed a bit more and having Renewal instead of Nihil (a big difference obviously).

And I think it wouldn't hurt to re-write or add parts to some of the entries I've made in this topic; any ideas or observations? I'm thinking that a double Sniper team should be emphasised as a valid team idea, as opposed to a gimmick, since we've seen what it can do, and a mention of Rolf's (and I guess also Shinon's) potential as a Resolve user is worth mentioning, too.

[General Horace]

the only reason nasir was good was being a fast tank with nihil. If Nasir didn't have nihil, he'd be a mediocre at best unit like Ena. Sure she's tanky, but she offers very little to offense, and unless you slap Nihil on her, she's not actually all that tanky since things like Wrath/Resolve and even like Adept wreck her pretty hard.

She also doesn't hit very hard, and with Makalov and Brom being on almost every team, even if she doubles them, she's doing very little and Brom almost always has Nihil too.

You can't give Ena Nihil either since it makes the rest of your team too weak in the first few turns, if your opponant gets their resolver going early, they mow through 1-2 units immediately. Nasir doesn't have this problem because he'll have a teammate with Nihil.

Edited May 8, 2014 by General Horace

[PKL]

rexflame vs the tier list

G-d

Ike (Ragnell)

Nasir

Top

Ike (No Ragnell)
doesnt get doubled by it, takes out a chunk out of the Sage with an accurate silver sword on the counter. Bad matchup.

Oscar
he's a Paladin, which is the class most hurt by it. Still has enough Res to survive it and counter+kill on the next turn. Oscar be livin' and the sage be so ded.

Boyd
gets ORKO'd unless he runs some Talismans, counters for a huge chunk of HP and depending on whos the sage and what build boyd has, he might Resolve them back.

Rolf
Doesn't get doubled. Hits back for a ton of damage too and possible OHKO with a crit. Can brave bow to finish the job.

Kieran
same deal as Oscar I guess.

Makalov
in the same boat as Oscar, which reminds me, why is Mak lower than Kieran/Oscar? He only really wants 2 books vs the other resources the other 2 want. I guess Oscar has the whole brother bond thing going for him, but that's overrated really, coming from the guy who used them.

Tauroneo
He's an armor, he gets the shaft with anything sages do anyway.

Giffca
Waste a Laguzguard on your frailest unit why don'tcha. Doesnt get doubled, though I suppose he also doesnt do much to LG sages.

Tibarn

Same boat as Giffca.

High

Shinon
See Rolf, minus Brother bonds

Gatrie
See Tauro.

Mia
Doesnt care, wont get doubled.

Mist
She actually gets doubled for a good chunk despite good Res. She's so bad.

Brom
Rexbolt would do the same anyway or Bolting/Meteor.

Nepenthe
Needs Talismans and Robes to survive but at least she counters anyway. Does get ORKO'd with flame tho.

Zihark
See Mia

Largo
See Boyd except he can never survive I think.

Ena

Doesnt care about flame.

Calill

Naesala

doubles them back.

Mid

Titania

See Paladins.
Marcia

Doesnt get doubled, counters with Silver for good damage.

Lethe

idk
Jill

shes screwed.
Astrid

See Paladins.
Stefan

Doesnt care.
Tanith

See Marcia.
Ranulf

See Lethe.
Geoffrey

See Paladins.
Elincia

Doesnt care.

Low they suck anyway

Rhys

Soren
Ilyana
Mordecai
Muarim
Tormod
Devdan
Janaff
Ulki
Haar

Lucia
Bastian

Bottom

Volke
Sothe
Reyson

I don't see how it's broken.

[AnonymousSpeed]

I've used Mist, she's alright. but only with a fair bit of booster investment. I recommend moving Makalov up to top of...top if the list is ordered, and moving Mist down to mid maybe.

[Baldrick]

This is the current proposed order;

Ike (No Ragnell)

Giffca

Makalov
Rolf

Boyd

Tibarn

Oscar
Kieran
Tauroneo

Apart from Boyd > Oscar, I have no issues with it.

[Espinosa]

Moved Oscar above Boyd, as was pointed out by Horace and Baldrick.

Let's also add the other three to the list:

Ike (No Ragnell)

Giffca

Makalov
Rolf
Oscar

Boyd

Tibarn
Kieran
Calill

Brom
Tauroneo
Ena

Uhh, who wants to try High Tier? Naesala on top I think, maybe followed by Gatrie and Shinon, and the rest I don't know.

Also, PKL, the order of the OP so far is by in-game recruitment.

[PKL]

I want a Top tier banned match for lulz vs u Espi

[Espinosa]

I want a Top tier banned match for lulz vs u Espi

Sure, I'm up for it! Let's allow Ena to check just how powerful she is in that meta (because people disagree with her being in Top, which I explain by her being too good for High), if at all.

Who could host that one I wonder? Horace is already doing me vs. Anon.

[Vennobennu]

I could host it, if you'd like.

[Espinosa]

That'd be great! Just ask me or PKL if the hosting gets confusing.