Loki Laufeyson Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 how is it even possible that gays run the nation when those laws exist and gays are tortured "...A peaceful land, a quiet people..." Putin is Roose Bolton made flesh. (and without the flaying...that we know of...) I do think it's likely that Putin just put that damn bill forward as mostly a political gesture, but it may be kind of a populist one at that, which might imply that the number of people in Russia to whom that gesture (and the lack of legal protection + abuse towards gay people in general) is pandering is a disturbingly large one. But does Putin actually agree with it? I get how he wants to appease a large group of political viewpoints for more votes, but he seems rather eager to contribute. I dunno, dude unsettles me a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excellen Browning Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 It's true at the same time that the views of Russians towards homosexuals/LGBT tend to fall between "it's immoral" and "they should be exterminated" and the reality, to outsiders, is that you can't have gay pride without attracting ultranationalists, neo-nazis or orthodox christians looking for a fight. But with regards to that, most people here probably claim fake superiority, considering the situation in their country doesn't deviate that much. Ultimately, racist/xenophobic/anything-phobic/anything-ist killings, shamings, unlawful persecutions are quite normal, even in the western hemisphere, and my concern right now is mostly finding out what the reality is, not that propaganda law. That law is so broadly defined that it's really going to be up to legal precendence once convictions start piling up that anyone can find out if it is actually going to mean anything. If that ever occurs. Per example if every article that deals with LGBT just has to put up some disclaimer, and homosexuals can continue to hold hands and kiss in public, or admit they're gay, bi or trans without that being legal ground for an arrest or fining, or hold a gay rights demonstration, then that law is really just hollow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Karimov Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 how is it even possible that gays run the nation when those laws exist and gays are tortured God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleph Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 hey whoa don't blame me for the worlds' problems!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 hey whoa don't blame me for the worlds' problems!! Please. They are obviously trying to blame me. People always do. Damn mortals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Some of the conclusions I've made obviously go beyond raw facts well duh who needs facts, secret russian #homosexuilluminati who do fuck-all 4 lyfe imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 well duh who needs facts, secret russian #homosexuilluminati who do fuck-all 4 lyfe imo Well, you certainly don't require any insight to continue to cling to what's habitually perceived as factually correct as regards the subject matter (in complete absence of even remotetely representative information transmitted). Getting doctor's degrees without having to study and highest salaries without doing any work (by no means exceptional for sexual minorities in a country ruined by corruption, but the point remains that their comfort is facilitated if they're ready to offer something in return) are among the privileges enjoyed by the gay community in the country. It's the rule of money not rule by sexual orientation though, if the latter is what you're suggesting, and some people (they don't even have to actually be homosexual) happen to have a service they could offer to a common taste, or interest if you like, that belongs to many of those in power. The number of people who hide the local gays (specifically referring to ones high up in the hierarchy) away from the law and the public eye (latter no longer really possible with the internet existing) and lobby their interests is obviously higher than the actual sexual minorities being in power. I'm not talking about any gay PMs or even mythical figures behind the curtain; these are simply folks who know which strings to pull to control their area of interest, and both Putin and the official church worry a tad bit too much about their image (the Sochi Olympics is to a large extent part of Putin's ambitions as a leader). Speaking of the church (I understand that the idea of a large number of gay monks and bishops might be exotic the world over, though we did have the Vatican scandal that hasn't quite died down yet), typing in "gay lobby orthodox church" into Google seems to produce a couple of relevant articles in English, some even posted on LGBT websites. Point remains, a lack of any real knowledge about what happens in the country and its culture will not help you discern the points offered from any other source that wants you to pay attention or even take action. Hiding actual crimes is no longer possible within niche areas of life where everybody knows each other and the truth is impossible to hide, so legal action will follow and what very few ignorant people did not know will become public knowledge, similarly to the Vatican scandal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 (edited) well duh who needs facts, secret russian #homosexuilluminati who do fuck-all 4 lyfe imo Wait, are you suggesting that "Some of the conclusions I've made obviously go beyond raw facts" is bad? It seems like it. What do you think happens in any field that demands intelligence beyond "do you want fries with that?" There's extrapolation (sometimes bad) and then there's even just drawing conclusions based on facts. In a courtroom, do you think guilty/not guilty is drawn purely based on facts? No. They take the facts presented, produce a reasonable inference that fits the facts, the other guy does the same (or simply tries to poke holes in the other guy's inference), and the winner is who does a better job of drawing the picture, or sometimes whose theory is left the most intact. Even in science, you run an experiment and then say "this is likely true because it fits these facts." If you believe you can't make any conclusions based on presented facts, then you are going to be stuck with jobs that demand that level of intelligence. You can bookkeep, for example, since that's pure facts, but you can't be an accountant that makes all the estimates that people rely on without going beyond the numbers, beyond the "raw facts," and drawing a conclusion. Edited February 7, 2014 by Narga_Rocks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percivalé Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 russia is the source of like everything I have a ridiculous phobia of Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrhesia Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 Well, you certainly don't require any insight to continue to cling to what's habitually perceived as factually correct as regards the subject matter (in complete absence of even remotetely representative information transmitted). factually correct: practically everything about homosexuality is criminalised in russia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espinosa Posted February 7, 2014 Share Posted February 7, 2014 factually correct: practically everything about homosexuality is criminalised in russia The notorious gay propaganda law is likely never going to see any implementation (considering how many other, actually non-ambiguous laws are disregarded). It is true that the voice of the people is neglected and any attempt to exercise one's rights are stopped very quickly; the power is very corrupting. This has nothing to do specifically with homosexuality though, and even the biggest over-the-top provocateurs among "gay" (it's sometimes not clear if they really are) public figures, artists and showmen have never had any problems with the law (though quite a lot of fuss among the local population, but that's all part of the provocation). Much success is enjoyed regardless; it sells and wins hearts. Putin leaving little room for freedom is quite a problem, but it helps to remember what preceded Putin coming to power in Russia's history, in relation to which there was immense progress. Right now he has no real opposition to be taken seriously though, which is alarming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WYAN Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 In Soviet Russia MAN AM I THIRSTY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 Espinosa, I'm having a hard time understanding how it is that gay people constitute a powerful set of interests, as opposed to the case being that it's not so bad that no gay individuals can wield a fair bit of power. You mentioned that it's the little people who get hurt at some point yourself, but those sorts are themselves who I think of when I think about "life for gay people in Russia." It might just be a semantic point, but it feels to me like an important one. (and most impressions I get, though many of them general, seem to be trying hard enough to communicate that point that I'm also having a hard time believing it's exaggeration) I'm also totally ignorant of any situations where gay individuals who faced abuse had their cases used deceitfully by gay rights groups, or how any kind of gay establishment has done something to sell people like them out, or some such. Generally, I'm not sure how to reconcile your words with the supposed existence of people/groups like occupy pedophilia, who do things like torture, maim, and kill gay people, (link to some of their perspectives) and sometimes make videos of it which can go viral, most commonly with lax prosecution at best. Also, though it may just be that I haven't found the right sources, I haven't yet seen any specific corroboration of any sort of public gay interest having forced or stayed Putin's hand on anything. I did read your articles, and it makes sense that not everybody who isn't gay in Russia is unsympathetic to them, and things analogous to this happen everywhere, but the (admittedly few) accounts I've seen given by gay Russians seem to give off a greater sense of fear, among other things, than I'd expect from a country with something along the lines of "average levels of homophobia." On my earlier post: the bit about homophobia in Russia not having religious elements might have been hot conjecture, cursory search results show a lot of articles with the Orthodox church officials having a lot of garbage to say about it. (though to what extent/in what capacity that influences/illustrates broader homophobia and general attitudes in Russia, I of course don't know, but it appears to be a thing that exists in some capacity) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizenberg Posted February 12, 2014 Author Share Posted February 12, 2014 rehab agrees. fuck russia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted February 12, 2014 Share Posted February 12, 2014 "How I've heard parts of its culture and government (which appear to be significant) treat gays," at least. Might be a little less catchy :p I think parts of its history are interesting, the place has produced a lot of cool art, and I don't immediately have much against the common dudes or anything. It does sound to me like it has some shit it''ll need to work through as a country, though (and its government sounds corrupt at best, and like legalized criminals at worst, but some of the scuttlebutt I've heard about ordinary Russians' views on it makes it sound like they think/know that more intimately than anybody) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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