RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Lol, it's funny how you have to attack someone and ignore all the other people making reasonable points. I wonder who is the more mature one here. I didn't attack and ignore anyone making reasonable points. I did attack you but I still stand by my claim that I didn't attack anyone who made a reasonable point. Would I want SD's Sidestory requirements to return? Of course not. But having to kill off a character on your team to recruitment is something that has existed long before SD. If you say that you need to kill off many characters, then how much is 'too many'? Two? Three? Ten? When do you reach a point that you need to kill off 'too many' characters to recruit another? For me, killing off one is just as unacceptable as more than one. The requirement was bad and whoever thought it up should feel bad but SD is not the only one guilty of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icon of Sin Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Would I want SD's Sidestory requirements to return? Of course not. But having to kill off a character on your team to recruitment is something that has existed long before SD. If you say that you need to kill off many characters, then how much is 'too many'? Two? Three? Ten? When do you reach a point that you need to kill off 'too many' characters to recruit another? For me, killing off one is just as unacceptable as more than one. The requirement was bad and whoever thought it up should feel bad but SD is not the only one guilty of it. Just before you can get Athena, the first Gaiden character, you have to kill over a dozen units. By the time Ymir comes around, you'll have to kill off three times as much. So if I go with the bolded part, 12 = 1. 36 = 1. Edited March 5, 2014 by Woodshooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Frankly, if Awakening had a kill off characters to access gaidens mechanic, I think you'd have a different tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Frankly, if Awakening had a kill off characters to access gaidens mechanic, I think you'd have a different tune. I'd hate it? I never said I liked the mechanic nor should it ever return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Just before you can get Athena, the first Gaiden character, you have to kill over a dozen units. this is not true. you can simply not recruit many of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) You wouldn't be defending Awakening for it by saying "Well one of the previous games you had to kill one of two recruitable slave traders trying to kill you, and that's just as bad!" this is not true. you can simply not recruit many of them. You still have to kill three units to get Athena, and fifteen to get Ymir. In any case, the number of kills has never been the issue, since in a typical playthrough you'll kill hundreds of people. It's the way in which you kill them. Edited March 5, 2014 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) To be fair, as much as I dislike the "kill 15 units to get another" mechanics, I don't mind it being on the game. I miss the gaidens, but the game is big enough for me to enjoy it without them, and almost every unit in SD is bad anyway, so if you decide to kill them in order to access the gaiden, you won't be missing anything. It's a terrible mechanic but not something that makes me dislike the game it's in, or even penalize its score, since SD has the same size as other FE games anyway About the games, I like SD and awakening (voted good) and haven't played enough of FE12 to judge it. Edited March 5, 2014 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 You wouldn't be defending Awakening for it by saying "Well one of the previous games you had to kill one of two recruitable slave traders trying to kill you, and that's just as bad!" Yeah, sure, let's go with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) I didn't attack and ignore anyone making reasonable points. I did attack you but I still stand by my claim that I didn't attack anyone who made a reasonable point. Would I want SD's Sidestory requirements to return? Of course not. But having to kill off a character on your team to recruitment is something that has existed long before SD. If you say that you need to kill off many characters, then how much is 'too many'? Two? Three? Ten? When do you reach a point that you need to kill off 'too many' characters to recruit another? For me, killing off one is just as unacceptable as more than one. The requirement was bad and whoever thought it up should feel bad but SD is not the only one guilty of it. Not replying to Woodshooter and Baldrick is by definition ignoring people who make reasonable points. You can't make reasonable points at all in the first place. For me, killing off one is just as unacceptable as more than one. I don't care what you think and neither does anyone else. A lot of people here agree that killing more than one is worse than killing one. Unless you're Joseph Stalin. Edited March 5, 2014 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I don't care what you think and neither does anyone else. A lot of people here agree that killing more than one is worse than killing one. Unless you're Joseph Stalin. come one, are you really comparing a video game to a dictator who killed millions of people IRL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Not replying to Woodshooter and Baldrick is by definition ignoring people who make reasonable points. You can't make reasonable points at all in the first place. I don't care what you think and neither does anyone else. A lot of people here agree that killing more than one is worse than killing one. Unless you're Joseph Stalin. Joseph Stalin? Yeah, okay dude. I already made my points and responded to people who made points I wanted to respond to. Just because I didn't quote them doesn't mean I didn't respond to them in some form in my post. So yeah, while I did attack you, I didn't attack anyong who made a reasonable point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) So Jack, do you think killing a slave trader who's trying to kill you in order to rescue innocent people is just as bad as killing your own subordinates for no good reason? Edited March 5, 2014 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 So Jack, do you think killing a slave trader who's trying to kill you in order to rescue innocent people is just as bad as killing your own subordinates for no good reason? I'm confused as to who you are talking about. I should point out that in-universe, you don't actually kill your own subordiates in SD. Unless you're saying that the army commanders orders his troops to de-equip weapons to lure out enemies too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I guess you didn't ignore my post, you just didn't read it. I meant you as in the player, not Marth. Unless you accidentally reach the gaiden, that is what is happening (though less to lure out enemies and more in order to die). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I guess you didn't ignore my post, you just didn't read it. I meant you as in the player, not Marth. Unless you accidentally reach the gaiden, that is what is happening (though less to lure out enemies and more in order to die). Guess you didn't understand my post. I was asking who this slave trader is. And again, Marth does not order anyone out to die. So whatever implications killing off your own units has 'in-universe' are meaningless because that's not what happened for the characters. It's no different then people purposefully killing off characters in RPGs like Mass Effect to create a narrative of their own, in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Deen and Sonia. They work for Geyse, who captures people and sells them into slavery. They are the only characters in the series outside of SD who you are obliged to kill in order to recruit another unit. What point are you trying to make by saying there are no in-universe implications? Does that mean the mechanic is a good one? So Jack, do you think killing a slave trader who's trying to kill you in order to rescue innocent people is just as bad as killing your own subordinates for no good reason? Answer this question as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJWalker Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 Deen and Sonia. They work for Geyse, who captures people and sells them into slavery. They are the only characters in the series outside of SD who you are obliged to kill in order to recruit another unit. What point are you trying to make by saying there are no in-universe implications? Does that mean the mechanic is a good one? Answer this question as well. Neither Deen or Sonia are slave traders nor do they work for Geyse completely of their own free will or that's what the game implies. Deen and Sonia are not the only ones you need to kill. Recruiting Olwen means you have to kill her to get Eyrios. Not recruiting her either means letting her get killed in 11x or letting Fred get killed in 11 meaning Olwen probably got executed as well. That's hardly any different than sending them out to die. Recruiting It might be possible to complete chapter 6 without killing Johan or Johlava, especiallyif you recruit Johan since Johalva may not be able to keep up with up but I'm not sure. Anyway, my point was that as far as the plot and characters are concerned, the commander didn't order them out to die. They died in a tragic event and the game only ever treats it as such. Which I why you slave trader question is meaningless because the first part is inaccurate and the second part of it never actually happens as you describe it as far as the plot is concerned. Is it a good mechanic? Of course not. Did I ever say it was? Of course not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 What do you suppose Deen and Sonia do all day, then? Geyse is notorious for kidnapping. They both hate Geyse and it is implied they could beat him, so if they weren't willing to work for him it's unbelievable that they wouldn't team up. Examples? She starts as an NPC. If you don't recruit her and keep her alive, presumably she escorts the NPC children in that chapter to safety. To be honest, I think the Olwen/Eyrios situation is handled badly, but it's less bad than the SD gaidens. I've kept Johalva alive as an enemy before, it's pretty easy. Johan would be difficult since he's in the way but certainly not impossible. Of course the game doesn't acknowledge it; being able to discern the player's motive is beyond what it is capable of. But we know the majority of players like to keep everyone alive, so having a unique character only join if you let several units die is IS giving those players the middle finger. If it's not a good mechanic, why are you justifying it by saying the plot doesn't condemn it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 (edited) Then what about my point. Etzel's and Ymir's chapters especially have quite a few nice goodies to have, which you have to sacrifice enough units to only have less than fifteen overall to get there. The only REALLY COOL THINGS out of both of those maps are an extra Warp staff and maybe a second Devil Axe - the rest can be bought elsewhere (especially the Longbows/Poleaxes). I think the only way those two maps become "full of nice goodies" is if the player missed the Member Card, didn't shop in Chapter 17, and/or doesn't have a working wireless connection. In other words, I feel this shouldn't be a point against the SD gaidens (in other words, nothing of value is lost if the player elects to keep their dudes alive). Edited March 5, 2014 by eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metalsnowman3 Posted March 5, 2014 Share Posted March 5, 2014 I will say I wouldn't mind seeing other Sedgar/Wolf (in SD) archetypes in later games, pre promotes with no base stats but insane growths was definitely interesting. However, I see most people not agreeing with me on that one. I also just recruited all them in FE12 and man do they suck, they are worse than random pallies and horsemen around them, disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted March 5, 2014 Author Share Posted March 5, 2014 I think the whole point of the Gaidens was to help people that need the help by giving them free exp, items and a new recruit. Of course, I don't agree with how SD handled gaidens, but just pointing out what i think might have been the reason for the requirement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Laufeyson Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This thread got Godwin'd somewhere and thats gross. Eww. (in other words, nothing of value is lost if the player elects to keep their dudes alive). Then why introduce that kind of mechanic if you dont get hella cool shit? I thought that was kind of the point, to get nifty junk if you kill off X number of dudes or have only X number of dudes in your team. I dunno, SD is really wonky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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