Crimea declares independence from Begnion

[euklyd]

Best part is Turkey should actually own Crimea now. The referendum passing means the treaty signed by Catherine the Great and the Ottoman Empire cedes control back to Turkey.

lol.

wait what

How does that work?

[Acacia Sgt]

wait what

How does that work?

Well, don't know about the treaty, but Russia first acquired Crimea by winning a war against the Ottomans. Crimea wasn't actually part of the Ottoman Empire, but rather a Vassal State, though it was a vassal for around 300 years.

But why stop there? After all, said vassal state was the Crimean Khanate, created by the branching off from the Golden Horde Empire, so let's go give Crimea to Mongolia then...

[Chiki]

then let me amend my statement; 'crimea is not declaring independence in any way shape or form that has any significance beyond immediately joining russia'

let's never jump to fucking obvious conclusions, let's never imply anything, everything has got to be spelt out from start to finish just in case noted far from the forest poster 'Chiki' doesn't understand cause and effect

Wow, you're very angry. Lol.

Like I said, we maybe should be happy for the Crimeans. The only reason you guys are morally outraged is because the media portrays it like some horrible thing. It's not a bad thing at all for a country to declare independence and join another one, even if it's Russia.

Think about it. Why does America care so much about Crimea joining Russia? It's obviously because they don't want Russia to have greater influence.

Edited March 18, 2014 by Chiki

[jiodi]

I was referring to this article I had read:

http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/17/turkey-under-ottoman-empire-treaty-with-catherine-the-great-if-crimea-declares-independence-it-returns-to-turkey/

[Parrhesia]

Wow, you're very angry. Lol.

see you say that without knowing whether or not it's true - that's bad journalism Chiki, you don't get a gold star

(hint: it is in fact Not True)

Edited March 18, 2014 by Parrhesia

[Acacia Sgt]

You know, that reminds me, I've found at least one article online comparing the situation with that of Kosovo's. Although I probably wouldn't comment on that until I research about that one.

[Parrhesia]

I'm not actually morally outraged about the situation because I concede that I, an Australian who has not researched this topic in-depth, does not have my finger on the collective Crimean pulse. All I know is that the Ukrainian border basically got invaded. Which, by the way, is bad.

[Chiki]

I'm not actually morally outraged about the situation because I concede that I, an Australian who has not researched this topic in-depth, does not have my finger on the collective Crimean pulse. All I know is that the Ukrainian border basically got invaded. Which, by the way, is bad.

At least you admit it.

The Crimeans were actually okay with Russia invading Crimea. They were already an autonomous region of Ukraine anyway, so it's really difficult to argue that Crimea and its people don't have the right to join Russia.

[jiodi]

Wow, you're very angry. Lol.

Like I said, we maybe should be happy for the Crimeans. The only reason you guys are morally outraged is because the media portrays it like some horrible thing. It's not a bad thing at all for a country to declare independence and join another one, even if it's Russia.

It's a cloudy subject when you consider the entire country has been bombarded with propaganda from the west and east.

I mean good for the Crimeans who want to be a part of Russia, bad for the minorities that don't.

The 95% referendum passing was bullshit because Ukrainian news organizations got shut off and anyone trying to plead for the other side was silenced. And god knows what other reasons.

You see the propaganda from our side but you know what people bathed in eastern propaganda think? That the Ukraine is currently in anarchy and people are dying on the streets every day. The people from the Ukraine who tried to take flyers down to Crimea to give info were turned away or mysteriously disappeared.

The US isn't a good guy in this situation since they probably had a hand in the initial uprising in the first place.

But just cause we suck doesn't mean Putin isn't being an asshole. His "protect ethnic Russians" campaign he was claiming is killing Ukrainian soldiers and taking hostages in government buildings as we speak.

This is also a crisis greater in scope than just Crimea.

Putin is stroking his cock and the we are still rubbing Russia's nose in the fact that we won the cold war.

We're playing stupid foreign policy games with lives and the players are the largest nuclear powers in the world.

Should our government have stayed the fuck out of it? Yes, we need to stay the fuck out of a lot of things. But there's these crazy things like treaties and agreements that get signed after giant wars happen (as well as all the time for any other occasion). Russia, the UK and the US all signed an agreement with the Ukraine that we would protect the sovereignty of their country if they gave up their nukes. They did.

I can understand where Putin is coming from, though. Even if the US didn't incite the political upheaval in the country there is still a case for a part of the country choosing to secede because of a difference in ideology. He has some (barely) justification for wanting to keep Russian interests in mind. The problem is secession isn't always accepted by the country (see every civil war ever in the existence of ever). Putin is throwing Russia's weight around because he's watching his country's influence being further eroded. And the Ukraine is almost bankrupt and losing Crimea means they lose a major manufacturing region of the country, it is not in their interests to give up that big a chunk when they're struggling so hard.

The US and NATO have been chipping away at Russia's influence for years now, almost as if we want to start another fucking cold war. Sad thing is, there are a lot of people in this country who would LOVE another one, cause money.

TL;DR

Putin is butthurt cause the Ukraine doesn't want him to be its sugar daddy anymore and ousted his puppet, possibly with the help of US NGO's, so he invaded Crimea and is thumbing his nose at western countries. So he's an ass. It's totally okay to not be okay with that.

[Parrhesia]

i personally take the stance that generally the invasion of a sovereign nation is not something to be delighted about but i am sure international law would gladly take note of your, Chiki's, suggestions

[Rehab]

I heard something like that the pro-Ukrainians and Tatars in Crimea may've boycotted the referendum in large numbers as well, though I gather that everybody assumed that the Pro-Russia vote would've won anyway.

One aspect of it that seems like it might be somehow telling to me is that in addition to Ukraine, a good handful of the other countries in the area have denounced Russia/Putin's actions. I think the way people have been putting it as a "new cold war" as in U.S. v Russia is a bit weird, like if anything the EU it seems like the would be the closest thing to a "western agitator" here. Until sanctions were brought up by Kerry and Obama, I got the impression that the EU was being a lot louder over the protests prior to Yanukovich's ousting, and that the U.S. just seemed like it was just wringing its hands and going "is everything okay over there"

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Russia's move is rather heavy handed but Crimea never should have been part of Ukraine in the first place and Ukraine's government was not going to voluntarily accept Crimea's return to Russia. Full incorporation of Crimea into Russia is imminent and given the region's demographics it will be pretty hard to argue afterwards for it to return to Ukraine. And NATO countries in particular have no real grounds for criticism here given Kosovo. Sanctions will be worthless in constructively altering Russia's behavior and only further provide ammunition for the argument that the west is out to get Russia. Said argument is not entirely wrong, either.

Only thing that should be done here is congratulate the people of Crimea and wish them the best in their new country.

[Rewjeo]

The way I see it, there are two acceptable plans of action:

Accept that Russia gets Crimea, but only in exchange for Kaliningrad. In the name of good borders.

or

Crimea goes to Turkey

[eclipse]

Think about it. Why does America care so much about Crimea joining Russia? It's obviously because they don't want Russia to have greater influence.

I believe that this is a gross oversimplification of an extremely tricky situation, and I place the blame square on Putin.

[Chiki]

I believe that this is a gross oversimplification of an extremely tricky situation, and I place the blame square on Putin.

Ok, answer these two questions:

1. Why should America care about Crimea leaving Ukraine?

2. Can Putin be blamed for the fact that the majority of people in Crimea are Russians?

3. Why doesn't an autonomous (rules itself) part of a country have the right to leave?

[jiodi]

Seeing as there are three questions posed, I will only answer two of them as per your request:

1. See my above post. The Crimea is within Ukrainian borders and the US, UK and Russia all signed off to protect the Ukraine's border integrity if they gave up their nukes. That's the most basic possible reason without taking into account foreign policy or special interests.

2. Yes. Putin can also be blamed for 9/11, the Holocaust, Hitler's birth, the Rape of Nanjing, the mass extinction of the dinosaurs and AIDs. Does this or Crimea's ethnic population have anything to do with this situation? NOPE.

3. Left black as per question asker's request.

[Chiki]

Seeing as there are three questions posed, I will only answer two of them as per your request:

1. See my above post. The Crimea is within Ukrainian borders and the US, UK and Russia all signed off to protect the Ukraine's border integrity if they gave up their nukes. That's the most basic possible reason without taking into account foreign policy or special interests.

2. Yes. Putin can also be blamed for 9/11, the Holocaust, Hitler's birth, the Rape of Nanjing, the mass extinction of the dinosaurs and AIDs. Does this or Crimea's ethnic population have anything to do with this situation? NOPE.

3. Left black as per question asker's request.

Why should a treaty override the wishes of the Crimean people? We make horrible treaties all the time which disadvantage minorities. This was one of them: Ukraine has no right to have control over Crimea if they rule themselves and if the majority of Crimea is Russian. Crimea even has its own parliament and Prime Minister.

Yes, Crimea's ethnic population has nothing to do with the fact that they want to join Russia.There's no way that there ethnic heritage is responsible for them wanting to join Russia. Putin would not have been able to seize Crimea without this justification. Even he needs a reason to seize Crimea apart from expanding borders. What a dumb argument.

My entire argument is that we maybe should be happy for the Crimeans because they're Russians. I wouldn't be coming here, making this argument or this joke, if they were not Russians and they joined Russia against their will. Ok?

Edited March 19, 2014 by Chiki

[Sifer]

Crimea will join Russia and the USA has made it clear it won't use military force to stop what is happening in Crimea, and I doubt any Western power too. So there will be be no intervention from the West besides ineffectual sanctions. I think if Crimea wants to join Russia then it should, especially with 95% of the vote giving the go ahead this.

Latest news on this

Russia's Vladimir Putin recognises Crimea as nation

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26621726

Ukraine crisis: Putin signs Russia-Crimea treaty

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26630062

[jiodi]

I guess my initial response to you went unnoticed.

Tell me, if Putin was so sure Crimea would vote on a referendum and vote to join Russia because they love Russia so much then why did he have to:

- Issue passports to Russians to Crimea in a similar fashion as he did with Georgia.

- Shut down the arguments from the other side by shutting down all news stations in Crimea that had anything to do with agreeing with the new Ukraine government.

- Stop activists from entering Crimea.

- Send people in to sow discord and create anti-western propaganda among Crimeans.

This is where I feel the argument falls apart. I would be 100% on board with the referendum if such heavy-handed tactics weren't employed and all sides of the argument were allowed to be made before the referendum.

Take a look at Scotland right now. They're planning on voting to secede from the UK and both sides are making arguments and everyone's listening and whichever way the vote goes will be a much fairer outcome because nobody is shutting down information from pro-secession and anti-secession parties.

This was not an independent vote by Crimea. Putin claims he doesn't want to take the rest of the Ukraine but agents are already being sent into Eastern Ukraine to do the same thing that was being done in Crimea.

And it's not like I side with the Ukraine, the uprisings were very likely to have been rooted in US NGO meddling.

Everyone's hands have been in this and it stinks. It's hard to say "oh leave them alone now!" because nobody has left them alone since WW2.

[Chiki]

I don't agree with Putin's actions, either. But it doesn't change the fact that the majority of Crimea is happy with this outcome.

[Makaze]

Chiki... Ask yourself why are talking. If you wish to convince the other side, why do you want to convince them?

Are you defending your honor?

Are you convicted that a vote cannot be swayed by what amounts to an occupation?

Are you convicted that Russia should have done what it did?

Are you convicted that this was going to happen with or without Putin's involvement?

If any of the above are true, why are you convicted?

Even I am getting tired of this...

[Original Alear]

Chiki... Ask yourself why are talking. If you wish to convince the other side, why do you want to convince them?

Are you defending your honor?

Are you convicted that a vote cannot be swayed by what amounts to an occupation?

Are you convicted that Russia should have done what it did?

Are you convicted that this was going to happen with or without Putin's involvement?

If any of the above are true, why are you convicted?

Even I am getting tired of this...

CONVINCED ;)

Edited March 19, 2014 by SeverIan

[Chiki]

Chiki... Ask yourself why are talking. If you wish to convince the other side, why do you want to convince them?Are you defending your honor?Are you convicted that a vote cannot be swayed by what amounts to an occupation?Are you convicted that Russia should have done what it did?Are you convicted that this was going to happen with or without Putin's involvement?If any of the above are true, why are you convicted?Even I am getting tired of this...

Why don't you go ask that to everyone in the serious discussion and Fire Emblem section having arguments? Lol. For the same reason everyone does. I'm merely defending a view.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Chiki

[Makaze]

Why don't you go ask that to everyone in the serious discussion and Fire Emblem section having arguments? Lol. For the same reason everyone does. I'm merely defending a view.

Why?

[Chiki]

Why?

For the same reason everyone else spends time arguing on this forum. :P