What do you expect for a good final boss?

[Jotari]

I think the key formula it boils down to is threatening and time consuming. A good final boss is one that poses some kind of challenge and can last longer than two turns. Though I don't like a situation of slowly doing chip damage over the course of dozens of turns. Really a puzzle final boss like Ashera is the best route, because even after dealing with the defensive aspect you can still have a standard final boss too.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I think the final boss moving is a really easy way to make the final boss harder. I don't mean this as an insult or to demean the idea, rather the opposite. They really should do that more.

To be fair, a lot of bosses should be like that.

Seize bosses get pretty boring when they can't move or defend themselves properly even with terrain bonuses. Meanwhile, offensive bosses (especially if there's multiple or if he commands a small army at his side) are more interesting to fight,

A moving boss only really works in big maps like in FE9. A healer with a low defense could be killed instantly, if he cannot go out of its range. I think a long range map attack how it works in FE10 would be more effective.

They could also give them the option to attack at range, like Radiant Dawn did for almost every single 4-F boss. At least they shouldn't stay completely passive during their last stand unless the narrative bothers to prevent them from doing so.

Yes, range attacks and a teleporting boss are good ways to make the bossfight very challening.

[Aizenberg]

as long as it involves a big dragon, im happy

[General Banzai]

I think conceptually some kind of mix between Ashnard/Fomortiis/Ashera would be cool

The megastat final bosses in more recent games are mostly just obnoxious

[Ein]

I wouldn't say Ashera is a great boss. The Mantle skill just destroys the point of building up skills and overkilling everything with your class exclusive skill which was also rather silly. Something like Ashnard and Formotis would be better. Without the only 2/3 characters can hurt them or everyone with an S rank or Bishop or people not named Knoll can harm them.

[PuffPuff]

Reguarding this topic's question...I would say that for Iduon. Easiest last boss finish in the series.

FE1(NES)-Nothing special. Divinwe weapons or the Falchion defeats him.

FE2-Impossible to beat without the Falchion,

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe2/hint.html

or without a Moonlight Lance+Sister+Rizare combo.

FE3-Medeus is actually harder to take down than in the DS versions as he saws dmg in half and that divine weapons are the only other way to defeat him without the Falchion. BookII he can be impossible to battle without a least losing a few units. It's possible to beat him without needing Oum afterwards, but you would have to be really lucky to do so.

FE4 Julius-If the AI would get him to Meteo your units while attacking him, he would be harder as you would have to start over anyway. But...if you don't mind a death or two, then he's otherwise going to be easier. He saws damage in half possessing Charge, Nihil and Wrath to make him even more dangerous that it is impossible to battle him with any other character other than Seliph and Julia.

FE5-Weak. Any character can kill him easily with a Master weapon, etc. The final boss to this game is simple like Iduon, but nothing else was.

FE6-A joke. She shouldn't be fighting.

FE7-Luna tome easily kills this boss no matter what.

FE8-Haven't played this game more than twice. But...I'm sure that he is easy to kill.

FE9-Ashnard is impossible to kill without the Ragnell, or Wrath+Resolve drgn. Having him move made it harder than you think.

FE10-Ashera may arguably be the hardest final challenge in the series. It is almost impossible to clear this challenge without at least losing a few characters as she can defeat UU, or under tiers without breaking a sweat. You just have to hope that she decides to target Nasir(Who is one of the few that can survive her onslaught), or any Laguz Royal to have everyone see a happy future.

FE11-Medeus is easier this time. He can be beaten by strong enough units with divine weapons.

FE12-Same as before in FE3 except that he doesn't saw your power in half.

FE13-Grima all you need is Luna, Ignis, Vengence to stand a chance.

So...

Ashera is the winner for being the hardest final boss in the series.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Dark_Huntress

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Reguarding this topic's question...I would say that for Iduon. Easiest last boss finish in the series.

FE4 Julius-If the AI would get him to Meteo your units while attacking him, he would be harder as you would have to start over anyway. But...if you don't mind a death or two, then he's otherwise going to be easier. He saws damage in half possessing Charge, Nihil and Wrath to make him even more dangerous that it is impossible to battle him with any other character other than Seliph and Julia.

FE9-Ashnard is impossible to kill without the Ragnell, or Wrath+Resolve drgn. Having him move made it harder than you think.

FE10-Ashera may arguably be the hardest final challenge in the series. It is almost impossible to clear this challenge without at least losing a few characters as she can defeat UU, or under tiers without breaking a sweat. You just have to hope that she decides to target Nasir(Who is one of the few that can survive her onslaught), or any Laguz Royal to have everyone see a happy future.

FE11-Medeus is easier this time. He can be beaten by strong enough units with divine weapons.

FE12-Same as before in FE3 except that he doesn't saw your power in half.

FE13-Grima all you need is Luna, Ignis, Vengence to stand a chance.

If you do not got Naga´s tome, you are really screwed against Juius.

You also get a laguz royal and Nasir/Ena, who can damage Ashnard. Giffca does more damage than Ike. But the easiest way to beat him is with Ike´s wrath and resolve.

You can beat Ashera without losing any units without that much trouble! On the first turn you just have to place the units with worst defense far enough away of her or on a cover place, that the physical range attack cannot kill them. If you use the strongest units and make good use of the red dragons and Nasir, you can beat her in turn 2.

In FE11 on the hardest difficulty you have to sacrifice some your of units to beat Medeus in one turn.

Grima can be killed easily in one turn in general.

Edited April 10, 2014 by MisterIceTeaPeach

[Just call me AL]

FE1(NES)-Nothing special. Divine weapons or the Falchion defeats him.

FE3-Medeus is actually harder to take down than in the DS versions as he saws damage in half and that divine weapons are the only other way to defeat him without the Falchion.

You have to wait a REALLY long while to be able to defeat him should you go up against him without Falchion, if I'm not mistaken.

BookII he can be impossible to battle without a least losing a few units. It's possible to beat him without needing Aum afterwards, but you would have to be really lucky to do so.

FE12-Same as before in FE3 except that he doesn't saw your power in half.

On the other hand, all stat caps in FE3 stop at 20 (save for health, which stops at 52), whereas his speed and resistance are at 30, his health's at 99, and everything else is at 40. In FE12, recruiting the clerics and getting Marth and maybe Kris (and, if you need them, any readily available SMs, Zerkers, and Snipers) to Medeus ASAP would be the easiest way to defeat him. Also, Magic can't scratch Medeus in FE3 pt 2, while using mages against him isn't even recommended due to his caps in FE12.

FE4 Julius-If the AI would get him to Meteor your units while attacking him

Um... FE4 enemies change to a more suitable weapon when they're being attacked. Like for instance, an enemy Master Knight with a sword and a bow in his inventory is equipped with a bow will switch immediately to a sword when attacked. So good luck trying to catch Julius without his Loptyr tome.

FE6-A joke. She shouldn't be fighting.

She does have among the best atmosphere among any FE final boss, in addition to having one of the best backstories. I do agree that she could have been harder, but to say that she shouldn't be fighting is asinine, considering her role.

FE7-Luna tome easily kills this boss no matter what.

Only if it crits at least once in a 2-hit round. Canas is not guaranteed to be able to double the Fire Dragon, so at any rate, you're definitely gonna need more than just Athos to take down the Fire Dragon. (And speaking of whom, there is the chance that Athos might not be able to survive the first blow from the Fire Dragon at base.)

FE8-Haven't played this game more than twice. But...I'm sure that he is easy to kill.

Ephraim and Seth are pretty much all you need. Heck, even Duessel at base with Garm could be able to help with Fomortiis.

FE9-Ashnard is impossible to kill without the Ragnell, or Wrath+Resolve dragon. Having him move made it harder than you think.

Reiterating what MisterIceTeaPeach said here. He's pretty much cake with a well-trained Wrath/Resolve Ike. Also, in addition to Ike and the dragons, the royals can damage Ashnard. (Giffca, as noted, does more damage than Ike.) It's just that using Ike with Wrath/Resolve is just a better strategy.

FE10-Ashera may arguably be the hardest final challenge in the series. It is almost impossible to clear this challenge without at least losing a few characters as she can defeat UU, or under tiers without breaking a sweat. You just have to hope that she decides to target Nasir(Who is one of the few that can survive her onslaught), or any Laguz Royal to have everyone see a happy future.

You can beat Ashera without losing any units! On the first turn you just have to place the units with worst defense far enough away of her, that the physical range attack cannot kill them. If you use the strongest units and make good use of the red dragons and Nasir, you can beat her in turn 2.

There's nothing that I can say that isn't already said here regarding Ashera.

FE11-Medeus is easier this time. He can be beaten by strong enough units with divine weapons.

Um... No he isn't. In fact, you could actually lose a unit in the long run if you don't have any units with either 27 AS and health and defense that adds up to a number greater than 50, or a unit with 21 Defense at least and max health at most.

FE13-Grima all you need is Luna, Ignis, Vengence to stand a chance.

Wanna know a better strategy? Brave effect weapon forerunner (preferably a unit with either a Brave Bow, Celica's Gale, or Waste) with either of Chrom or Lucina in tow. Bonus points if you happen to use some rallies. Either way, Grima's not gonna last long.

If you do not have Naga´s tome, you are really screwed against Julius.

Not necessarily. He can be defeated by Ares, Seliph, and Shanan. But chances are that you're gonna need to heal every turn you attack, and it's gonna take longer than with Julia toting the Book of Naga. But defeating Julius without the Book of Naga isn't really impossible. Edited April 9, 2014 by Just call me Al

[S_Cero]

What I've currently gathered from this thread is that a boss needs to be hard to kill even with cheesing tactics but not come to just chipping away at each other.

[RJWalker]

Not necessarily. He can be defeated by Ares, Seliph, and Shanan. But chances are that you're gonna need to heal every turn you attack, and it's gonna take longer than with Julia toting the Book of Naga. But defeating Julius without the Book of Naga isn't really impossible.

Not Shanan. Shanan doesn't have Nihil and Julius has Wrath.

[Icon of Sin]

Not Shanan. Shanan doesn't have Nihil and Julius has Wrath.

Furthermore, only Alec's children can have Awareness. The only one with a legendary weapon is Faval, which isn't all that bad considering he has 67 might.

Even Ares is facing criticals.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Woodshooter

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

She does have among the best atmosphere among any FE final boss, in addition to having one of the best backstories. I do agree that she could have been harder, but to say that she shouldn't be fighting is asinine, considering her role.

Only if it crits at least once in a 2-hit round. Canas is not guaranteed to be able to double the Fire Dragon, so at any rate, you're definitely gonna need more than just Athos to take down the Fire Dragon. (And speaking of whom, there is the chance that Athos might not be able to survive the first blow from the Fire Dragon at base.)

Ephraim and Seth are pretty much all you need. Heck, even Duessel at base with Garm could be able to help with Fomortiis.

Not necessarily. He can be defeated by Ares, Seliph, and Shanan. But chances are that you're gonna need to heal every turn you attack, and it's gonna take longer than with Julia toting the Book of Naga. But defeating Julius without the Book of Naga isn't really impossible.

Most of the dragons fights are in general pretty lame except for Medeus. But I agree, that the atmosphere in FE6 is great.

I know, that it is possible to beat Julius without Julia. But it will be a very long and exausting battle (like Ike against Ashnard without skills and laguz support).

Edited April 10, 2014 by MisterIceTeaPeach

[Guy Starwind]

My very first time playing FE7 I had to use Athos to kill the dragon because didn't train any of the main characters. As long as he has someone to heal him Athos can take down that dragon. Moreover, the dragon does like 38 damage to his 40 hit points and shouldn't kill Athos in one go. With Luna getting the crit I always use the bard kids (Nils or whatever the crap it is) to increase the chances of getting it.

For Ashera, I think people are making her harder than she really is. Not sure what this "you'll lose characters" stuff is all about?

[PuffPuff]

1. If you do not got Naga´s tome, you are really screwed against Juius.

You also get a laguz royal and Nasir/Ena, who can damage Ashnard. Giffca does more damage than Ike. But the easiest way to beat him is with Ike´s wrath and resolve.

You can beat Ashera without losing any units without that much trouble! On the first turn you just have to place the units with worst defense far enough away of her or on a cover place, that the physical range attack cannot kill them. If you use the strongest units and make good use of the red dragons and Nasir, you can beat her in turn 2.

2. In FE11 on the hardest difficulty you have to sacrifice some your of units to beat Medeus in one turn.

Grima can be killed easily in one turn in general.

1. Seliph+Power Ring+Tyrfing can do 5HP of damage to him per strike and it is the only way that you can defeat him without the Book Of Narga as everyone else will get critted 0HKOed by him when below 40HP as he possesses stupid Wrath.

2. Dangerous trying that with Marth as Medeus can double attack 2HKO Marth with minimal effort on the hardest difficulty.

1. You have to wait a REALLY long while to be able to defeat him should you go up against him without Falchion, if I'm not mistaken.

On the other hand, all stat caps in FE3 stop at 20 (save for health, which stops at 52), whereas his speed and resistance are at 30, his health's at 99, and everything else is at 40. In FE12, recruiting the clerics and getting Marth and maybe Kris (and, if you need them, any readily available SMs, Zerkers, and Snipers) to Medeus ASAP would be the easiest way to defeat him. Also, Magic can't scratch Medeus in FE3 pt 2, while using mages against him isn't even recommended due to his caps in FE12.

Um... FE4 enemies change to a more suitable weapon when they're being attacked. Like for instance, an enemy Master Knight with a sword and a bow in his inventory is equipped with a bow will switch immediately to a sword when attacked. So good luck trying to catch Julius without his Loptyr tome.

She does have among the best atmosphere among any FE final boss, in addition to having one of the best backstories. I do agree that she could have been harder, but to say that she shouldn't be fighting is asinine, considering her role.

Only if it crits at least once in a 2-hit round. Canas is not guaranteed to be able to double the Fire Dragon, so at any rate, you're definitely gonna need more than just Athos to take down the Fire Dragon. (And speaking of whom, there is the chance that Athos might not be able to survive the first blow from the Fire Dragon at base.)

Ephraim and Seth are pretty much all you need. Heck, even Duessel at base with Garm could be able to help with Fomortiis.

2. Reiterating what MisterIceTeaPeach said here. He's pretty much cake with a well-trained Wrath/Resolve Ike. Also, in addition to Ike and the dragons, the royals can damage Ashnard. (Giffca, as noted, does more damage than Ike.) It's just that using Ike with Wrath/Resolve is just a better strategy.

There's nothing that I can say that isn't already said here regarding Ashera.

Um... No he isn't. In fact, you could actually lose a unit in the long run if you don't have any units with either 27 AS and health and defense that adds up to a number greater than 50, or a unit with 21 Defense at least and max health at most.

Wanna know a better strategy? Brave effect weapon forerunner (preferably a unit with either a Brave Bow, Celica's Gale, or Waste) with either of Chrom or Lucina in tow. Bonus points if you happen to use some rallies. Either way, Grima's not gonna last long.

3. Not necessarily. He can be defeated by Ares, Seliph, and Shanan. But chances are that you're gonna need to heal every turn you attack, and it's gonna take longer than with Julia toting the Book of Naga. But defeating Julius without the Book of Naga isn't really impossible.

1. Yes, and...

I've forgot to mention that Devil Weapons and Silver also can damage him, but the Divine weapons do a much better job if without the Falchion.

2. I only don't mention the royals because you don't get to use them with your first round against him on Hard and Maniac.

3.

Furthermore, only Alec's children can have Awareness. The only one with a legendary weapon is Faval, which isn't all that bad considering he has 67 might.

Even Ares is facing criticals.

^

-----

Ares and Shannan are dangerous to use against him when his HP is below 40HP.

My very first time playing FE7 I had to use Athos to kill the dragon because didn't train any of the main characters. As long as he has someone to heal him Athos can take down that dragon. Moreover, the dragon does like 38 damage to his 40 hit points and shouldn't kill Athos in one go. With Luna getting the crit I always use the bard kids (Nils or whatever the crap it is) to increase the chances of getting it.

For Ashera, I think people are making her harder than she really is. Not sure what this "you'll lose characters" stuff is all about?

*sigh*

*Brushes hair away from face*

She does this attack that attacks a single unit sometimes which she can easily double to most characters in the game 2HOing them in the process and that there is nothing that you can do about it. Whenever they aren't trained very well...that is...

Edited April 10, 2014 by Dark_Huntress

[Guy Starwind]

I believe you. I guess it's never happened to me before.

[Jotari]

I remember the biggest danger in the Ahsera battle was the counter effect on the auras. You had to plan how to destroy the auras without dealing massive damage to your own units with their own attacks. Ashera herself was certainly powerful but I don't remember it as so powerful you will definitely lose units. She was threatening but she never seemed cheap or ludicrously strong.

[CT075]

i actually really really liked veld

for all his bluster and threat he's just another enemy ("just another man")

[Terrador]

A good FE boss absolutely

Positively

Has to have a large attack range. Read: movement or siege. That said, sometimes the chapter is so terrifying that a "sit there and look ugly" boss can actually be scary as hell; see FE12. I don't even know how you're theoretically supposed to clear that shit on Lunatic or L'. DRAGON SPAWNS, MAN. CHRIST.

Ashnard could've been the best boss fight in the series, honestly, if his defenses were a bit better and he didn't have the whole magic armor thing going.

As far as being a fun story experience goes: I adored the atmosphere of the Dheginsea battle, and the Yurius battle did quite well in that regard, too.

[BrightBow]

I am not even that big of a fan of Ashnard. Once he starts charging, he is effectively beaten. You just have him trade blows with Ike while healing him from a distance until he kicks the bucket. It's just the same thing every turn. And since Ashnard can only really be hurt Ike and the Laguz kings, there is not a whole lot more that one can do to handle the situation.

As far as moving Dragon Knights go, I think that Julius in TRS was handled somewhat better due to him being able to absorb life with his attacks. So he requires a clever approach in order to minimize the damage of his counter attacks. Though, I might overestimate him since I went into his map completly unprepared and got royally creamed by his mighty Slim sword as a result.

[Jotari]

I am not even that big of a fan of Ashnard. Once he starts charging, he is effectively beaten. You just have him trade blows with Ike while healing him from a distance until he kicks the bucket. It's just the same thing every turn. And since Ashnard can only really be hurt Ike and the Laguz kings, there is not a whole lot more that one can do to handle the situation.

As far as moving Dragon Knights go, I think that Julius in TRS was handled somewhat better due to him being able to absorb life with his attacks. So he requires a clever approach in order to minimize the damage of his counter attacks. Though, I might overestimate him since I went into his map completly unprepared and got royally creamed by his mighty Slim sword as a result.

Preparation does play a huge part in it. I wasn't prepared for Ahsnard's charge so when he came towards me so soon I couldn't lock down his movement with four units even though I had most of my army in that fountain area. And since he usually had two squares beside him that we're fountain, blocking him off from my weaker units became a complex situation that involved baiting his AI and positioning my units that could take a blow in very precise places. But that it purely because of the way I entered the fight. If Ike was he only one there it easily could have been a one on one battle. Or if I had Jill and two other units that can take a blow I could have easily boxed him in much sooner before he had a chance to use the fountain as cover.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I remember the biggest danger in the Ahsera battle was the counter effect on the auras. You had to plan how to destroy the auras without dealing massive damage to your own units with their own attacks. Ashera herself was certainly powerful but I don't remember it as so powerful you will definitely lose units. She was threatening but she never seemed cheap or ludicrously strong.

Preparation does play a huge part in it. I wasn't prepared for Ahsnard's charge so when he came towards me so soon I couldn't lock down his movement with four units even though I had most of my army in that fountain area. And since he usually had two squares beside him that we're fountain, blocking him off from my weaker units became a complex situation that involved baiting his AI and positioning my units that could take a blow in very precise places. But that it purely because of the way I entered the fight. If Ike was he only one there it easily could have been a one on one battle. Or if I had Jill and two other units that can take a blow I could have easily boxed him in much sooner before he had a chance to use the fountain as cover.

Ashera is extremly powerful. Jugde is the most powerful weapon in Fire Emblem history with a might of 50. She has a physical attack of 58 and a magical of 65. Her most dangerous attack is the physical range map attack after turn 1. You have to place the mages and especially the herone far enough away from her.

Another point is her high speed of 32. You really have to worry about units, who get <29 speed, because Ashera will kill everyone with two magical attacks except maybe the dragons.

Ashera has 5 autority stars, which gives her a hitrate and avoid of +25%. So her hitrate always is 100% except against units, who get an earth support.

To avoid damage of the auras, you have to give nihil or parity to your units (especially units, who can attack the auras twice).

If you make good use of the red dragons and Nasir, you can beat Ashera in turn 2.

Ashnard will move after turn 10, or if you put Ike into his range. So you have to retract all the units, who cannot damage him.

Like a said in a previous comment: If you give Ike the skills wrath and resolve, he could take down bezerk Ashnard in one turn. So you do not even have to call a laguz royal.

A good FE boss absolutely

Positively

Has to have a large attack range. Read: movement or siege. That said, sometimes the chapter is so terrifying that a "sit there and look ugly" boss can actually be scary as hell; see FE12. I don't even know how you're theoretically supposed to clear that shit on Lunatic or L'. DRAGON SPAWNS, MAN. CHRIST.

Ashnard could've been the best boss fight in the series, honestly, if his defenses were a bit better and he didn't have the whole magic armor thing going.

As far as being a fun story experience goes: I adored the atmosphere of the Dheginsea battle, and the Yurius battle did quite well in that regard, too.

I have not played FE12 on lunatic or higher yet, but Medeus in FE11 on merciless is a pain, because you have to sacrifice units to beat him. He has speed of 30, which means, that he doubles almost everyone!

Ashnard has terrible luck; no luck in normal mode. His defense is okay, because Ike can only do max. 9 damage to him. Ashnard is ridicolous easy, if Ike gets wrath and resolve. But without skills and royal laguz, he is a great challenge!

The fight against Dheginsea is probably the best dragon fight in the entire FE series. The atmosphere and the theme are fantastic.

[General Banzai]

I have not played FE12 on lunatic or higher yet, but Medeus in FE11 on merciless is a pain, because you have to sacrifice units to beat him. He has speed of 30, which means, that he doubles almost everyone!

Almost everyone isn't everyone. Not to mention it's possible to get people with enough HP and Def to survive getting doubled by him. I recall I beat H5 FESD Medeus with a combination of Sniper!Caeda and General!Sedgar, one having enough speed to not die and the other having enough health.

I mean Caeda is one of the best units in the game and she easily reaches the 30 speed mark as long as you remember to reclass her to something that isn't slow as dicks

Edited April 13, 2014 by General Banzai

[bottlegnomes]

Again, I do applaud it for being in a different setting than most finales in FE (not that the standard is at all bad here). I just think it ends up being a very anticlimactic place for a final battle. Like, Elincia could probably find a spot there where she once sat and drank tea with her uncle after picking out some flowers. Now she's fighting Ashnard there?

Too lazy to read the whole topic right now, but this is what I like about 9's Endgame. It's all about Elincia taking her home back, so it makes sense that it's somewhere familiar to her. The throne room would be so cliche that I'd throw my TV out a window, and some random place would just seem random.

I guess 7's endgame was my favorite, since it was actually semi-unique. The immediately pre-Julius stuff in 4 is similar and also pretty cool. Unfortunately, Nergal and Julius were kind of jokes themselves, and the fire dragon was about the same.

I really liked the last future of despair.

[DomesticHausCat]

I've said this before in a different topic IIRC. The only boss in the series that feels like a boss fight is Ashera. Every other boss in the series is just a glorified mook with steroid induced stats. However, Ashera has things going for her that no other enemy in RD (and the series in general) has. She has attacks that can hurt multiple units on the battlefield, 8 shields protecting her and a bunch of elemental mooks offering a good distraction for your units that aren't attacking the shields. I would really like major story bosses to have elements of this. Rather than just a general sitting his fat ass on a throne and hoping your units can hit/damage him.

Edited April 15, 2014 by DomesticHausCat