What do you expect for a good final boss?

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I asked you last week, who is your favourite final boss in Fire Emblem.

The intermediate result shows, that Ashera and Ashnard from the Tellius-series are your favourites.

Ashera is probably the toughest boss, because of her map range attack and her total HP of 840, so it is almost impossible to kill her in one turn except on easy mode. Ashnard hisself is an easy final boss, if Ike got wrath and resolve, but the atmosphere makes this bossfight great.

Only very few people have voted for one of the dragons in the GBA games. And no one has voted for Grima from the latest FE game yet, which really has surprised me. I think the mainreason is, that the dragons can be easily killed in one turn. And I have to agree with this. Grima has an awesome map theme, but I can easily beat it under a minute even on lunatic (I have not play lunatic +).

So that is reason to ask you, how the creators have to improve the next final boss? What do you expect for a fun and also challenging final bossfight?

Edited March 22, 2014 by MisterIceTeaPeach

[Jedi]

The boss them self has to be a creditable threat in gameplay, even if they have to make it a puzzle to do such.

Almost all final bosses in fe have one massive weakness or are just pathetic other then like Ashera and Medeus in Fe12 (who's minions did keep you on your toes due to all DRAGONS)

[Tables]

From the FEs I've played I would say:

FE4 - Julius is kind of a mixed bag. While he's the final boss, it's more like the troops and things surrounding him which is the final boss. Julius himself is kind of dull - send in Julia and murder him and/or whittle him down with Seliph - but the deadlords, Julia/Manfloy and things going around make it interesting and kind of tough.

FE6 - Idoun is pathetic. I've only played this on Normal though, but looking at her hard mode stats, she doesn't look all that much more impressive. Being that weak AND having a chapter to herself makes her a bad final boss.

FE7 - The Dragon is kind of weird. The main issue is that it comes kinda out of left field - you can maybe expect to have to fight a dragon given the equipment you get, but the final boss being a single generic Fire Dragon? Ehh... the fact Athos can OHKO with a crit (with decent chance of activating) makes it less interesting, not to mention even if he fails you can probably still finish it off in one turn.

FE8 - Fomortiis is such a sad case. He had the potential to be really interesting, what with the monster spawns, an AoE sleep staff and stuff, but he's so weak and pathetic compared to your 8 weapons effective against him (plus Bishops) that who cares? He dies in 1-2 turns anyway (and if he doesn't die turn 1, he always spawns monsters as his turn, which means you don't get attacked). Boring and dull.

FE9 - Ashnard is a really cool final boss, at least on Hard. It's slightly lame that it usually comes down to Ike +Royal vs. Ashnard since your dragon is usually not good enough, and then he dies easily, but at least he has a huge movement range, is aggressive and flying, and so puts pressure on you to clear his chapter. Decent final boss.

FE10 - Ashera is another good final boss. She's kind of like a puzzle, but she takes time to kill, isn't overly easy, and most of your units have various things they could be doing to help which makes it a good, fun fight.

FE11 - Medeus is not great. On the higher difficulties, his stats are so high that most people can't even attack him safely, so you pretty much just end up blocking off the paths from the reinforcements and whittling him down with people who have >26 speed, before finishing him off with Tiki/Marth. Also Warpskip meaning you can realistically just warp someone to him and critkill him.

FE13 - Grima is one of the best. While he is possible to obliterate with good skill combinations (and/or luck), that's just a common thing in Awakening, especially if you grind. The constant reinforcements, their shield around him, his dangerous attacks and great stats make him a pretty fun final boss for me. You need to stay wary of normal enemies while trying to kill him with whatever you've got. The map itself and the music just adds to this one for me. I love Endgame in Awakening in general.

What makes for a good final boss? I think that the biggest factors are that there's some challenge and that most/all of your army can contribute in some way. Grima and Ashera do that best, which I'd say makes those the best final bosses. Ashnard kind of does it worst except you need to clear away most of the map, which relies on your army, so I think he's still okay. The GBA games are probably the worst, no challenge or just a small group are most effective/only ones effective against the boss.

[Autumn]

They need to be strong in more ways than in HP godliness. That is always lame. (i.e. a boss that requires headache inducing strategy to beat)

Edited March 22, 2014 by Akinaoki

[RJWalker]

In terms of story:

A good final boss/villain needs to have storyline presence. The villain needs to be a credible threat and be actively involved with the story. Most final bosses don't do this. It's the penultimate boss who is often the most involved. This is why I like the penultimate bosses more.

In terms of gameplay:

Simply being about stats is kinda dull. I like FE12 Medeus because of the 4 maidens that you also have to deal with. You pretty much need to bring 4 characters who may not have used at and might be deadweight, protect them till they reach the maidens, recruit them all and immediately kill Medeus on the same turn because the maidens will certainly die on the next turn. Another interesting one is Formortiis. If he could summon monsters and attack on the same turn, he'd be better.

So yeah, be more involved and be less dependent on stats as part of the challenge.

[Florete]

Ashnard hisself is an easy final boss, if Ike got wrath and resolve, but the atmosphere makes this bossfight great.

Wait, what? It's in a f*cking courtyard. There's a garden and fountain in the middle. I applaud it for being different than most FE finales, but this one took it in the wrong direction. It's music is boring, too (like most of PoR's music).

Anyway, I agree with Tables on what makes a good final boss. It should definitely not be just a super-powered single enemy, which is why I will always hold Ashera as the best until someone better comes along. Including both parts, FE7's finale is also pretty good because it throws fewer, but stronger enemies at you before you can get to the boss, but the final boss itself isn't much of anything special.

I really dislike final bosses that only a choice few units can damage. That's pretty much what they have to resort to with a boss like Ashnard, and it just further magnifies the problem. Awakening's is also bad because it can be beaten easily in two turns utilizing maybe half of the units you deployed.

Making a good final boss in a series like this one really isn't easy, but surely there are more ways to do it if these things are kept in mind:

1. Multiple units should need to contribute, even if not necessarily damaging the boss itself.

2. Should require multiple turns of more than just hammering away at one enemy (so not just one super-powered enemy).

3. Creativity: the chapter itself should not otherwise be just a normal chapter with a stronger boss.

4. Most important of all, it should be challenging.

[-Cynthia-]

I like the Ashnard battle environment. Ashnard holing up in some dark temple or something wouldn't have been very fitting. That being said, I'm not really fond of only a few units being able to damage him since that makes many members of the team useless.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Wait, what? It's in a f*cking courtyard. There's a garden and fountain in the middle. I applaud it for being different than most FE finales, but this one took it in the wrong direction. It's music is boring, too (like most of PoR's music).

Anyway, I agree with Tables on what makes a good final boss. It should definitely not be just a super-powered single enemy, which is why I will always hold Ashera as the best until someone better comes along. Including both parts, FE7's finale is also pretty good because it throws fewer, but stronger enemies at you before you can get to the boss, but the final boss itself isn't much of anything special.

I really dislike final bosses that only a choice few units can damage. That's pretty much what they have to resort to with a boss like Ashnard, and it just further magnifies the problem. Awakening's is also bad because it can be beaten easily in two turns utilizing maybe half of the units you deployed.

I like the map against Ashnard, because it takes place in a regular place in the world: In a huge garden.

Not unlike in most FE games in a close room of a huge tower or sth. like else, you can reach the boss in one or two turns and finish it in a couple of minutes. You really have to fight a huge number of (strong) enemies to get to Ashnard.

FE9 has not an own final map theme, but it is alright. It´s not great, but not bad either. It is the theme of the previous three chapters and it fits to the final map.

Anyway I agree, that FE7 has an excellent final map. You have to fight bosses, you have defeted yet. They really have great stats and holy weapons, which make them very challening to fight.

[Florete]

I like the map against Ashnard, because it takes place in a regular place in the world: In a huge garden.

Again, I do applaud it for being in a different setting than most finales in FE (not that the standard is at all bad here). I just think it ends up being a very anticlimactic place for a final battle. Like, Elincia could probably find a spot there where she once sat and drank tea with her uncle after picking out some flowers. Now she's fighting Ashnard there?

Not unlike in most FE games in a close room of a huge tower or sth. like else, you can reach the boss in one or two turns and finish it in a couple of minutes. You really have to fight a huge number of (strong) enemies to get to Ashnard.

Wait wait, first you said you can reach the boss in one or two turns and finish it in a couple of minutes (which is possible in HM, at least), then you said you have to fight a huge number of strong enemies to get to him. Which is it?

Bryce aside, the enemies in the map aren't significantly stronger than generics you've fought previously anyway. Even so, setting aside, the map is actually pretty standard for a final chapter in FE. Sacred Stones (Lyon's part), Shadow Dragon, and Awakening all have similarly structured final maps.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Again, I do applaud it for being in a different setting than most finales in FE (not that the standard is at all bad here). I just think it ends up being a very anticlimactic place for a final battle. Like, Elincia could probably find a spot there where she once sat and drank tea with her uncle after picking out some flowers. Now she's fighting Ashnard there?

Wait wait, first you said you can reach the boss in one or two turns and finish it in a couple of minutes (which is possible in HM, at least), then you said you have to fight a huge number of strong enemies to get to him. Which is it?

Bryce aside, the enemies in the map aren't significantly stronger than generics you've fought previously anyway. Even so, setting aside, the map is actually pretty standard for a final chapter in FE. Sacred Stones (Lyon's part), Shadow Dragon, and Awakening all have similarly structured final maps.

I meant, that I prefer big maps with many enemies, because you cannot rush to the boss so easily.

Of course it is shorter in FE9 on hard mode, because Ashnard moves and you can ignore the left and right side, but Bryce and the dragons can seriously hurt with high hit rates. And I know, that is possible to beat (Berzerk) Ashnard in one turn with wrath and resolve.

But where should the final battle take place to your mind? In Crimea Castle?

In FE8 + 11(not on the hardest modes) you just need to teleport once or twice to reach Lyon and Medeus and beat them. In FE13 you just need a forged brave weapon, (maybe) a skill, Lucina or Chrom with their exh. falchion and Grima is defeated.

Edited March 23, 2014 by MisterIceTeaPeach

[RJWalker]

I don't get how you can just warp someone to Medeus in H5 and win. Marth gets doubled and everyone else aside from TIki/Nagi can only do chip damage. Not to mention only 1 unit can attack Medeus at 1 range and he's protected by several units including a dragon.

[XeKr]

Most final bosses are jokes to fight, but might be interesting in atmosphere (Idoun, etc).

Among the others, Ashnard moves and has very high stats, but has to face Resolve/Wrath, which is a slaughter, or you’re otherwise just slowly chipping at each other. A bit more interesting if he has some super Red Dragons as backup in Maniac.

Ashera’s pretty good between all the positioning shenanigans with the Tide skills, though not quite threatening enough for my tastes.

I find FE11 Medeus silly, since he just waits there and it’s arguably easiest if you warp, sac and Aum Tiki/Nagi. Either that or fight solo, slowly.

FE12 Medeus is excellent; I’d probably say that’s the best way. However, it is a bit unfortunate for those who don’t know you should be training Marth throughout the game, if jumping to Lunatic. But how the whole team supports Marth by killing dragons or chipping or staff use, how you need a plan to save the clerics, all nice stuff.

Grima’s great (especially the atmosphere/buildup/music), but it’s essentially the same design as FE12 Medeus, but more restrictive and only the single target while mostly ignoring everything else the enemy’s gate is down.

In harder difficulties, he’s a bit too absurd to do efficiently with 53 Def/53 Res/110 avoid +Dragonskin + almost infinite healing + 80-100% Pavise + a million minions. There’s essentially only a single strat, the 1-2 turn beeline kill with Falchion user Dual Strikes. The stat benchmarks necessary to reliably beat it are silly, particularly given the nature of the mid/lategame.

I do like how you end up using your whole team for the best chances between Rallies, Rescue, Hex/Anathema, Charm, Dance, and a Lord playing a crucial role with Pair Up+high % Dual Strikes (thematic in certain ways).

So I’d say for good design, repeating what some others have said - I’d want both the boss and minions to be distinctly threatening, and the whole team to be involved. It's probably a Kill Boss goal by nature, so some minor side goals are a plus so you can't ignore everything else (but don't let the side goals be the central point of the chapter, like successive rooms with the boss just waiting alone at the end). An appropriate atmosphere is nice to have too. IS has gotten better at it in recent games.

Edited March 23, 2014 by XeKr

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I don't get how you can just warp someone to Medeus in H5 and win. Marth gets doubled and everyone else aside from TIki/Nagi can only do chip damage. Not to mention only 1 unit can attack Medeus at 1 range and he's protected by several units including a dragon.

Yes, I forget about Medeus´ 30 speed on H5, so it is impossible to beat him in one turn except for a lucky critical hit. I do not know, if it is possible to crit him on H5. I have never played H5 yet.

[BANRYU]

I think Grima had potential to be potentially the greatest both in terms of story and gameplay, but the former is ruined for me by 1) the rushed and poorly-written second-half of the game, and 2) the fact that you only fight the Avatar-doppelganger on Grima's back and nothing else. I was expecting something much more climactic, like at least a second form of the boss or something. The gameplay of Grima's fight is basically botched by the open-world map, and the fact that you can endlessly grind to easily take the boss down. In theory, it could have been really good for the reasons Tables mentions, but only if it actually poses a challenge-- which, by the the game design theory of dominant strategy, it basically can't (outside of Lunatic/+ which are stupid to begin with) because of the way the map and the story chapters are structured.

Honestly cutscenes like the opening animation and Lucina's faceoff with Grima gave me hope that Awakening could be like a medieval version of Mass Effect or some epic shit like that in terms of the size and scope of Grima's catastrophe and the threat he posed, but alas, not enough time to develop the story, and the threat level and urgency are nonexistent because of the grindable gameplay. It's downright tragic is what it is.

[Florete]

I meant, that I prefer big maps with many enemies, because you cannot rush to the boss so easily.

Of course it is shorter in FE9 on hard mode, because Ashnard moves and you can ignore the left and right side, but Bryce and the dragons can seriously hurt with high hit rates. And I know, that is possible to beat (Berzerk) Ashnard in one turn with wrath and resolve.

But where should the final battle take place to your mind? In Crimea Castle?

In FE8 + 11(not on the hardest modes) you just need to teleport once or twice to reach Lyon and Medeus and beat them. In FE13 you just need a forged brave weapon, (maybe) a skill, Lucina or Chrom with their exh. falchion and Grima is defeated.

I've not actually done it, but since there is a Rescue staff in the game, I'm sure one can get to and kill Ashnard within about 3 turns even on normal mode. The enemies being weaker ought to help out a lot. Sacred Stones, Shadow Dragon, and Awakening all have similar setups in that it's basically a normal chapter with a stronger boss at the end.

Also, it's very possible to beat Medeus in H5 on turn 1. I've done it myself. You just have to be willing to let units die.

[Refa]

I don't get how you can just warp someone to Medeus in H5 and win. Marth gets doubled and everyone else aside from TIki/Nagi can only do chip damage. Not to mention only 1 unit can attack Medeus at 1 range and he's protected by several units including a dragon.

You warp someone to blick the dragon in front of him with Excalibur, warp a dragon to kill him (the Divinestone has 54 effective might and +10Str), then warp another one/res the first one and warp that one again. Sadly, Bantu cannot use Divinestones...

[RJWalker]

You warp someone to blick the dragon in front of him with Excalibur, warp a dragon to kill him (the Divinestone has 54 effective might and +10Str), then warp another one/res the first one and warp that one again. Sadly, Bantu cannot use Divinestones...

Rescue? There's no staff for that in FE11.

[-Cynthia-]

Res as in resurrect with the Aum staff I believe.

[General Horace]

you can also forge a huge pachyderm forge and wreck medeus with two ballisticians/xane, it's pretty hirlarious

wrt to good final bosses though, its hard to do in a game like FE. If you make it to statistically strong there's always the chance that he'll just become unbeatable if you use less than optimal units, and I was never a fan of the final bosses being a showdown between the Lord and the boss anyway.

Edited March 24, 2014 by General Horace

[Tables]

...In theory, it could have been really good for the reasons Tables mentions, but only if it actually poses a challenge-- which, by the the game design theory of dominant strategy, it basically can't (outside of Lunatic/+ which are stupid to begin with) because of the way the map and the story chapters are structured.

Slightly tangential to the topic but at the bold part: What's wrong with Lunatic (normal Lunatic, not Lunatic+)? Its difficulty curve is a little bit too bowl shaped (hardest at the start, easy mid game, hard again at the end) but it's far from being 'stupid'. It's not FE11 where half of the cast is basically worthless on the hardest difficulty, here many people can face enemies and be good units. In the midgame things are fairly fair, if you have good tactics you are likely to win. Later on things get a little nastier as double forges plus hit+20 and huge wads of reinforcements start becoming a thing, but it's not like it's overly unfair, your team can probably deal with those things by then. Probably the most stupid part of it is the earlygame, but said earlygame isn't TOO terrible. Most players will probably need a little luck to get through chapters 1-3 but that's about it.

But complaints about Lunatic not being that bad aside, I think that Grima is a good final boss on Lunatic. He's not super easy to kill (typically) and there's quite a few different strategies to deal with him - gain control over the map/reinforcements (notably killing the Physic Sages who love healing him/her), then slowly whittle him down with strong weapons. Or rush him and hope to kill him with a few lucky procs/crits (especially Aether with Chrom, dat 45mt weapon targeting halved defence). Or utilise a number of Rallies to ruin him with your army in one go. Yes, with some grinding and/or sufficient preparation he can be easily destroyed - Limit Breaker + Rallies and the like, or rescue and dance abuse with an OP character. Or have Ricken OHKO him with a Fire tome (oh wait that's only possible on Normal). But I guess the point is, he's tough but fair. Thanks to the Falchion if you have a trained Chrom you always have a backup strategy of 'hope Chrom gets lucky' but outside of that you have a variety of options for actually killing him yourself. On lower difficulties, this is still sorta the case, but he's obviously much weaker - as you'd expect, from a lower difficulty. On Hard he still presents likely a decent threat to an unprepared player, with good damage output and impressive survival between (IIRC) 40 DEF and effectively 176 HP, as well as possibly some skills to halve damage(?). Really any lack of challenge Grima presents on lower difficulties is largely a symptom of those difficulties being too easy in general, more than Grima himself being too weak, I feel.

[Guy Starwind]

Just a list of some things that could make the final boss/level more challenging

1. Have the final boss be able to move around the map. I think this would keep you on your toes more.

2. Have long range/aoe attacks

3. Skills like ambush, wrath, big shield, life(I'm using FE4 terms but I think you get the point). I mean you don't want him impossible but more challenging.

4. Maxed stats on every enemy on the map. This is the final level! The final boss level should be the hardest. Also give the enemies some skills if the game has them.

I'm sure there is more but those are the one off top of my head.

[Refa]

I think the final boss moving is a really easy way to make the final boss harder. I don't mean this as an insult or to demean the idea, rather the opposite. They really should do that more.

[BrightBow]

They could also give them the option to attack at range, like Radiant Dawn did for almost every single 4-F boss. At least they shouldn't stay completely passive during their last stand unless the narrative bothers to prevent them from doing so.

[Icon of Sin]

I think the final boss moving is a really easy way to make the final boss harder. I don't mean this as an insult or to demean the idea, rather the opposite. They really should do that more.

To be fair, a lot of bosses should be like that.

Seize bosses get pretty boring when they can't move or defend themselves properly even with terrain bonuses. Meanwhile, offensive bosses (especially if there's multiple or if he commands a small army at his side) are more interesting to fight,

[X-Naut]

I'll just copy and paste this from another topic:

And as far as final bosses go, I'd like to see one who can be beaten easily in a straight fight like Veld... except they're invincible from the get-go, and will chase you down while you work to disable their protection.