Sky Battle! Pegasus vs Wyverns

[dondon151]

That might hold true for FE1/FE3, but considering (in FE11/FE12) male units can reclass to wyvern knights but not pegasus knights AND there's an exclusive pegasus promotion, it's just nonsensical to not include those titles.

but no male units except michalis start out as wyverns? the take-home point from these games is not that wyverns or pegasi are better than the other; it's that fliers are better than everything else.

whether or not a flier is any good has little to do with his/her initial class of wyvern rider or pegasus knight. it's a combination of availability and stats that actually matters. given the same personal bases and availability, wyverns would probably beat their pegasus counterparts every time, but such a thought experiment is not very useful.

[XeKr]

With all due respect, I don't quite buy that. I always thought that Pegasus Knights had better skills in both of their class trees (as opposed to Wyverns, where I believe that Wyvern Lords' skills aren't anything to write home about, especially when hyping an isolation skill that's almost never worth it IMO, and a breaker skill that only works against one of five weapon types, never mind the part where Swordbreaker probably won't come in time for anyone who it'd even be relevant against; besides, WTD generally does plenty to hamper swordies), for one, and second, Second Seals are rare early on, which means there's opportunity cost to Panne and Lon'qu reclassing to Wyvern (particularly the latter, who loses a whopping five speed in addition to losing his sword rank).

Note I even specifically called it “irrational hype.” And I said I would take FE13 Pegasus too, though maybe for different reasons than others.

I could go into tons more detail, however…consider that in extremely fast-paced clears, the decision only really matters for what to reclass Avatar into and it’s perhaps surprisingly not that obvious a choice in Lunatic (if you care about reliability. I'll writeup a thorough analysis someday >_>). Among other similar, but no-Avatar clears, you're probably not using a Pegasus as a primary fighter, but perhaps will a Wyvern/Griffon.

Among other playstyles, given the nature of the weapon triangle, Wyvern has something ridiculous like a 5 Hp/9 Def 50 Avoid lead against Lances, and Swordbreaker (or even Lances. But nice thing about Swordbreaker is you can mono-Axe and grab Deliverer or something) against Swords (which are weak until +8 forged, anyways). And doesn’t get rekted by Lances (plus forged Beastkiller is seen early, if somewhat rare) and especially Axes.

And Lon’qu is one of the very few units who’s nearly competent at base in Lunatic (quite rare) and, if used as a main combat unit, I think he would prefer a flying class with substantially better durability, weapon triangle control, 1-2 range and 8-10 move over sword-lock and 6 move.

Edited March 25, 2014 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

Discounting games where pegasi can class into wyverns that I've played...

FE6- Wyverns because Miledy

FE7- Florina makes pegs win because availability lead, Fiora is about as good as Heath, Vaida has low availability

FE9- Marcia is a little better than Jill and Tanith is better than Haar so pegs

FE10- Haar is really good, Jill is good, pegs are mediocre

Seems like wyverns win in harder games where their stats matter more, Pegs in easy games since they're more available.

[Tables]

That might hold true for FE1/FE3, but considering (in FE11/FE12) male units can reclass to wyvern knights but not pegasus knights AND there's an exclusive pegasus promotion, it's just nonsensical to not include those titles. Also if you're discounting FE1/FE3 then it would only make sense to discount FE2 considering there are no wyvern riding units in that game.

Oh, yes, I always forget that you can get Falcoknights in FE11 and FE12. So, yeah, I guess it makes sense to compare on those two. And I haven't played FE2, so wasn't aware that they weren't split there either (even though Falco's are just so much better in FE12 because Speed, but ehh). Guess that makes it 5/5 then?

[Refa]

Or 4/4 if you don't count either due to how related the class trees are, I guess.

[Shadow Mir]

Note I even specifically called it “irrational hype.” And I said I would take FE13 Pegasus too, though maybe for different reasons than others.

I could go into tons more detail, however…consider that in extremely fast-paced clears, the decision only really matters for what to reclass Avatar into and it’s perhaps surprisingly not that obvious a choice (if you care about reliability). I'll writeup up a thorough analysis someday. >_>

Among other playstyles, given the nature of the weapon triangle, Wyvern has something ridiculous like a 5 Hp/9 Def 50 Avoid lead against Lances, and Swordbreaker (or even Lances. Nice thing about Swordbreaker is you can mono-Axe and grab Deliverer or something) against Swords (which are weak until +8 forged, anyways). And doesn’t get rekted by Lances (forged Beastkiller is seen early, if rare) and Axes.

And Lon’qu is one of the very few units who’s nearly competent at base in Lunatic (quite rare) and I think he would prefer a flying class with substantially better durability, weapon triangle control, 1-2 range and 8-10 move over sword-lock and 6 move.

I already stated that WTD does plenty to hamper swordies (-3 Mt anyone?), so Swordbreaker's not all that great. Also, going back to Lon'qu, when exactly will he want to go Wyvern? In the axe-heavy beginning where it does him little to no good to discard his sword rank and a shitton of speed? That's the problem I have with this.

[PKL]

Discounting games where pegasi can class into wyverns that I've played...

FE6- Wyverns because Miledy

FE7- Florina makes pegs win because availability lead, Fiora is about as good as Heath, Vaida has low availability

FE9- Marcia is a little better than Jill and Tanith is better than Haar so pegs

FE10- Haar is really good, Jill is good, pegs are mediocre

Seems like wyverns win in harder games where their stats matter more, Pegs in easy games since they're more available.

I disagree with this, mostly because Marcia is still a very serviceable unit. And so is Tanith. The only one that is mediocre is Sigrun.

[XeKr]

I already stated that WTD does plenty to hamper swordies (-3 Mt anyone?), so Swordbreaker's not all that great. Also, going back to Lon'qu, when exactly will he want to go Wyvern? In the axe-heavy beginning where it does him little to no good to discard his sword rank and a shitton of speed? That's the problem I have with this.

I've reclassed Lon'qu with the C8 and C12 SS (and Renown/Anna exists) and found it very workable. Enemies are relatively tame while mostly unpromoted so until mid Valm or so, and there's tons of Paralogues in there. Compared to Panne, I find he usually has a level lead since he can, you know, fight stuff competently in early-mid Plegia. More consistent avoid, plus Vantage sometimes helping against mages, plus no Beastkiller weakness are small things that help.

(Panne is better though, most probably?)

Edited March 25, 2014 by XeKr

[-Cynthia-]

I disagree with this, mostly because Marcia is still a very serviceable unit. And so is Tanith. The only one that is mediocre is Sigrun.

Is there a big difference between 'mediocre' and 'serviceable' to you?

Edited March 25, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[Tables]

Is there a big difference between 'mediocre' and 'serviceable' to you?

This is about to become a semantic argument, which is pretty pointless. I think that out of Beorc classes, Pegasus Knights are one of the lower end physical classes. But considering the physical beorcs are generally the best set classes in the game (well I guess you could argue the royals are better but I consider availability to be relevant), that doesn't say TOO much.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Haar: Who cares about endgame? You deploy the Royals and beat each part in like 1-2 turns. Haar being mediocre there makes almost no difference. The amount he dominates, oh, 2/3rds of part 2 and almost the entire GM section is ludicrous. Jill has a really shaky start, with low AS thanks to bad STR, bad STR and not too great DEF either. Her STR growth is mediocre to average, which for someone with such bad base STR is not okay. It's not all bad for her, though - once her STR growth kicks in a little, her AS picks up really quickly and she starts doubling, and axes means she deals good damage too. And flight utility is obviously useful. Of course, all of those things also apply to Haar. Jill is stronger late game, but Haar dominates everything until then, so it doesn't really matter. Jill takes a lot of resources to get incredible, otherwise she's just good.

Jill has a really bad strength base for a level 14 dracoknight, but a forged iron axe can equal this problem. Her strength growth 45% is not that great either, but her growths are more similar to a pegasus knight. If she has maxed magic, speed, luck and resistance, give her bexp. to raise her strength and defense. She can easier play a solo than Haar. A good example is the desert chapter 4-3: Jill as dragonlord with speed 35 can double and kill everyone. Moreover her resistance is high enough to dodge sleep staffs.

Like I said in my previous comment, Haar is better in earlygame, but Jill is much more useful later and becomes to the best flying Beorc in FE10.

[Tables]

Jill has a really bad strength base for a level 14 dracoknight, but a forged iron axe can equal this problem. Her strength growth 45% is not that great either, but her growths are more similar to a pegasus knight. If she has maxed magic, speed, luck and resistance, give her bexp. to raise her strength and defense. She can easier play a solo than Haar. A good example is the desert chapter 4-3: Jill as dragonlord with speed 35 can double and kill everyone. Moreover her resistance is high enough to dodge sleep staffs.

Like I said in my previous comment, Haar is better in earlygame, but Jill is much more useful later and becomes to the best flying Beorc in FE10.

This is exactly the point, she takes a ton of resources to do what Haar does naturally. Or well much more easily at least. A forged Iron isn't too bad really, but everyone else in the DBs can also be running forged Irons, meaning they still outdamage her. And the second bold point is true of basically everyone. She doesn't cap those stats until around 20/20/14, that's late endgame. You can't just say 'she can fix her problems during 4-E-3' and expect it to be fine. I already said she's better in endgame, and it doesn't matter at all. Her earlygame is far more shaky, and since there are few chapters in the DB part 3 she will end up getting most of her EXP through combat, not BEXP, unless you want her to be entering part 4 at like 20/10 (hint: You don't). Even once she gets her BEXP dripping through in part 3, and she gets to a point she could compare with Haar, Haar has been completely dominating parts 2 and 3 and so it doesn't really matter how Jill can avoid sleep staves without the Pure Water Haar needs, she's just not going to catch up in general value of contribution.

[PKL]

ITT: Haar doesnt need Speedwings.

[Tables]

ITT: Haar doesnt need Speedwings.

He doesn't need them, but they do help him a lot. Like even without the 2-3 Speedwings he'd still be top tier, because BEXP helps and stuff (and unlike the DBs, he'll have a lot more base sections between chapters where he can top levels off with BEXP).

[PKL]

He doesn't need them, but they do help him a lot. Like even without the 2-3 Speedwings he'd still be top tier, because BEXP helps and stuff (and unlike the DBs, he'll have a lot more base sections between chapters where he can top levels off with BEXP).

No, actually in HM without his wings, he's definetely nowhere near as good. Still has flight, but he cant really double. The difference is huge.

3-2 has a bunch of enemies that no-Wings-Haar can't double.

3-3 AS ranges from 17-20. With 17 being rare and belonging to mages. Can't double.

And from here it all gets worse unless:

* he has been given a Wing and a promotion for 24 AS.

* he's somehow gotten 2 spd levels with decreased HM exp, low BEXP and a 30% spd growth.

A unit like Haar thrives on being able to choose where and when to ORKO multiple units in an Enemy Phase with Axes, good durability and good strength. Take the wing away, and hes just going to be surrounded by enemies and not actually kill them, making him that much worse. He also sometimes can have trouble reaching Spd thresholds for 3-5 (27 spd) and 4-P (28 spd).

Edited March 25, 2014 by PKL

[Tables]

Fair enough, I take it back. Been a while since I last played on Hard mode (it's more tedious than hard), I was under the impression he still had decent utility even though he struggled to double until promotion.

[PKL]

Fair enough, I take it back. Been a while since I last played on Hard mode (it's more tedious than hard), I was under the impression he still had decent utility even though he struggled to double until promotion.

His utility is still there, but his combat won't be as good, basically.

[Loki Laufeyson]

FE6: The Wyverns have it. Miredy is pretty great. I could never get our Peg girls in that one to a functional level for some reason.

FE7: Pegs have it. Florina has really gr9 utility and can be a good combat unit with a wee bit of love. Fiora is rather balanced and Farina is decent. Heath is a wonderful unit but he joins kinda late.

FE8: Pegs again. Vanessa is decent enough but Tana is a monstrosity as a Falcon Knight. Syrene sucks but shes got decent utility. Cormag is like Heath. Hes great but hes just the one guy....

FE9: Omg pegs by a long shot. Marcia flattens the game and Tanith's Reinforce is fucking amazing. Jill and Haar are decent enough but yeah.

FE10: Wyverns. Kinda weird how that is. Jill and Haar become your most resilient and valued guys for most of the game. Jill really helps carry the DBs especially in Part 3. Haar...is just Haar. We get four horsebirds in this game, yet our two wyverns kick all the asses. Marcia with transfers is good doe...

FE13: Uhhh wow...i dont even know. Dark Fliers are a thing in this game and that means Galefarts. But wyverns are really useful too. I say its a tie.