Big NOCers - Game Over

[charlie_]

I did address that point. It's worse from him because he went through a complete flip in priorities, from having a townread become stronger than four other scumreads that he claimed to have just from one post. It doesn't seem like a townie mindset, and a lot of Elieson's content feels like he's picking at minor things to say why people is scum.

I voted Vhaltz over Manix because I didn't find the latter to be scummy at the time?

[Scarlet]

Also, @Kaoz:

SB unvoted, so you're again the only one on the Strege wagon. Please put your vote somewhere where it'll count.

I did address that point. It's worse from him because he went through a complete flip in priorities, from having a townread become stronger than four other scumreads that he claimed to have just from one post.

While it is a questionable argument to begin with, what about the part where he claims that you're ignoring others doing the same thing? I do think it warrants a response.

I voted Vhaltz over Manix because I didn't find the latter to be scummy at the time?

But I literally cannot find you stating this anywhere at all.

Quite the contrary, in fact; the most recent mention of Manix prior to where you voted Vhaltz over him implies the opposite.

[Iris]

Votals.

Refa (3) - Manix, eclipse, Scarlet

Manix (3) - j00, Conquerer, SB

SB (2) - Strege, Elieson
eclipse (1) - Refa
Elieson (1) - BigBangMeteor

Strege (1) - Kaoz

You have 6 hours left in the day. With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. No majority today will result in a universal loss!

Edited April 12, 2014 by Iris

[Strege]

Refa keeps sheeping things and explaining why much later and I don't really understand. I mentioned that he and I were out of sync and I think that is only becoming truer. I'd mechanically call this scummy but given that I've messed up reading him super hard before I'm going to call it a small scumread? Plz stop shortcutting your reads with sheeping because the specific posts you do end up citing about the people you are scumreading really take a back seat.

SB: Do you have anything else to say on fellow wagon Refa? How does your read on Manix relate to your others? How suspicious are you of me at this point, actually, and why other than my read on you?

Manix: idk. He's obviously spent forever responding to stuff and I feel like his Refa read is lame because it's based on D1 stuff that Refa has reneged and Manix hasn't spoken about that. Manix's j00 read seems okay but not super amazeballs townie or anything.

Hmm. Guess I'd go SB > Manix > Refa for wagons. In fitting with my actual reads I'd go

SB > eclipse (who I'm reading as more genuine) ...

Elie, Manix, and BBM prolly come next. I know Manix said he wanted a more well-defined gradient but I don't see how it would help, since my scumreads aren't well-defined here; if that bothers you then okay.

It's a heavily tone/meta read. BBM picking only at Elie's case on him after BBM's initial vote bugs me, since BBM is usually more proactive even given the time constraints. BBM also agrees with Conq about Balc after the vig shot is announced:
"oh yeah conq said he had a dayvig shot I think? I think Balc might be a good target. Also Elie."
He also nominally suspects me there, which I'll grant is fair. The reads presented in the two posts do feel like a contrived vig-dodge, though, given the lack of reads elsewhere. Just feels like overall reactionary behaviour, and particularly out of character for BBM.

Haven't gotten back to reading j00 in detail and nothing stands out except his reads are hard to determine.

I can't believe this post took me two and a half hours fml

[Refa]

Elieson:

-Kaoz brought up a good point wrt to these two posts (Post 1 and Post 2). Yeah the reaction was genuine, but more than that I can't see scum!Vhaltz being that upset if people disagreed with him. In Healer, he definitely was more...agreeable? Dunno if that's the right word.

-Elieson's next post is good and he brings up some good points. I'm going to have to reread BBM myself. PEDit: BBM brings up a good counterpart, but I still think the other parts of Elieson's post are pretty OK.

Eclipse:

-j00 brought up how my main reason for voting eclipse would be because she voted me. Obviously I didn't like the vote, but I tried not to let my bias there factor in since I wouldn't like any vote on me. Basically my issues with her are spending more time discussing game theory, her Vhaltz vote, and the buddying with Conqueror.

-Strege makes a good point WRT to her responses to Vhaltz. He did have a good deal of non meta stuff, and her stating that he didn't comes across as being willfully ignorant.

Responses to her response which is under the second reference BTW.

-OK you're concerned about everyone not losing. But like, why would you mention yourself being lynched when you weren't even a wagon? I concede that my point about you not giving an opinion on Manix was bad though.

-I already dropped the point regarding your Paperblade vote. Admittedly I have been tunneling in on you, ugh. That's true. I need to ISO you with no prior biases and see if you're really scummy or if I'm just bothered by what you've been doing because I think you've been scummy thus far (confirmation bias or w/e).

-On the other hand, it's a bit silly that you state that I haven't discussed things? Like this isn't really alignment relevant (you could say that as either faction) and I just admitted that I've been tunneling you but like I have had other reads on other people.

Kaoz:

-Sure thing. Like in...fuck...Healer Mafia, I think? Manix tunneled BBM all Day 1 (keep in mind that he thought he was town) and was pretty hardcore about it responding to everything while here he comes across as...more laid back. It could be because he's busy, but the tonal/effort change was enough for me to bothered by it.

Manix:

-Do you think me and j00 are scumbuddies considering you said she pushed me for untownie motivations?

-Agree with Conqueror's point that while he has an ongoing case on me, it doesn't really seem to change or expand to encompass my newest posts.

-On the other hand, his reactions to j00 seem genuine enough, mafia sucks.

SB:

-I feel pretty good about my town read of him. He's way more on top of things and well, townie, as scum. He'd never be so confused and would presumably be bussing his scumbuddies anyways at this point, I'm sure.

Scarlet:

-Why are my reasons for voting eclipse exaggerated? Firstly, I already dropped the Paperblade point and secondly, you never pointed out where the scum intent was. Town can make bad cases too, just leaving it at "Oh, the case was bad so Refa is scum" strikes me as rather lazy.

-Manix brought up a good point about Scarlet complaining about his reasons for voting me but then finds me scummy for...well, similar reasons.

Strege:

-I don't think he's scum. Like yeah his initial logic was confusing but he elaborated on it well enough and it comes across as a townie doing well, townie things. Like adding clarity to his reads.

-Yes, someone would be able to act to act super pro town as town. Hence why I didn't push Vhaltz D1, because lynching someone for acting too townie is so stupid (although I'd question it if he were still alive on the later days). Yes, I don't really trust myself to recognize scum!Vhaltz.

tl,dr; I'm demoralized and not sure about my scum reads anymore. At this point I feel worst about Manix/Scarlet but I want to do some ISOs to make sure. Can people comment about their reads on Scarlet, actually?

##Unvote

##Vote: Conqueror

[Strege]

The second half of this is fluff, and yet Elieson, who has been all over BBM, has said nothing about it. I am disappoint.

I'm confused: are you calling 4 words fluff?

[charlie_]

Refa, why are you voting for Conqueror?

Priority is something like Manix>Strege/Elieson>eclipse right now but I'm busy and haven't reread anyone but Manix yet.

Should I claim?

[Refa]

Refa, why are you voting for Conqueror?

For his role power. If I don't find Manix scummy on the ISO, I'm leaving my vote there.

[Scarlet]

Scarlet:

-Why are my reasons for voting eclipse exaggerated? Firstly, I already dropped the Paperblade point and secondly, you never pointed out where the scum intent was. Town can make bad cases too, just leaving it at "Oh, the case was bad so Refa is scum" strikes me as rather lazy.

Because you're making a big deal out of what I'd consider minor points at best even if one were to acknowledge them as valid.

I do think I pointed out that your arguments weren't just bad, but that I got the impression you were trying to paint CLIPSEY! in a bad light with those weak arguments. That, combined with your self-admitted tunneling on her reads very anti-town to me.

Also, yes, you dropped the Paperblade point by now, but that doesn't change the fact that you sat on that for way too long. Dropping something doesn't mean it never happened.

##Unvote

##Vote: Conqueror

We have only a bit over 5 hours left in the phase and Conq is not a viable wagon at this point. Please put your vote somewhere where it'll count.

[Strege]

@Refa: Well we need to lynch someone today. Which wagon would you prefer? I don't think we'll get the luxury of a Conq counterwagon.

[charlie_]

We need a lynch more than a dayvig.

[eclipse]

I'm awake and fit to answer posts.

Paperblade, the flipped townie, literally said that they should have tried to do it because getting a lynch seemed impossible. This case feels incredibly forced to me.

Hindsight's perfect, yo. BBM couldn't have known that Paper was town unless he was mafia. At best, this point is null.

@eclipse

What was your read on me before it changed to null? And what about Bal's flip made you change your opinion? Also, are you currently scum reading anyone besides Refa?

Slightly town, due to some things from the past which I'd rather not bring up. That vote on Bal was a "safe vote" - he had questionable content and relatively sparse reads, while not being a major wagon. Once Bal flipped, you were once again voteless. As for reads. . .will get to that at the end of this post.

Oh, I forgot we're this close to deadline. Don't want Refa or j00 lynched since they seem to be wagons? Gonna make votals now because yesterday was terrible.

Continuing in trying and out-spampost j00, I think I'd prefer to lynch in eclipse/Strege/Manix/Elieson today, rereading those people to work on my priorities on them.

Everyone else should post who they want to lynch as soon as they can.

I REALLY don't like this series of posts. The one-vote wagons are not likely to take off, unless at least five other people show up. Trying to out-spam someone will only make you harder to read, so please consolidate your thoughts if you have the time.

I'd lynch Elieson for those arguments because it feels like a blatant contradiction of his previous reads and he's pushing a horrible case against BBM that doesn't make much sense at all, if that post wasn't clear?

I don't like Elieson/BBM because it's wandering into emotional territory, and one emotional-tunnel case per game is more than enough.

Eclipse:

-j00 brought up how my main reason for voting eclipse would be because she voted me. Obviously I didn't like the vote, but I tried not to let my bias there factor in since I wouldn't like any vote on me. Basically my issues with her are spending more time discussing game theory, her Vhaltz vote, and the buddying with Conqueror.

-Strege makes a good point WRT to her responses to Vhaltz. He did have a good deal of non meta stuff, and her stating that he didn't comes across as being willfully ignorant.

First point: I think you failed, if I got fed up to the point where I decided that you're tunneling me.

Second point: That's extremely subjective, much like how I think that SB's recent spam is getting out of hand.

-OK you're concerned about everyone not losing. But like, why would you mention yourself being lynched when you weren't even a wagon? I concede that my point about you not giving an opinion on Manix was bad though.

-I already dropped the point regarding your Paperblade vote. Admittedly I have been tunneling in on you, ugh. That's true. I need to ISO you with no prior biases and see if you're really scummy or if I'm just bothered by what you've been doing because I think you've been scummy thus far (confirmation bias or w/e).

-On the other hand, it's a bit silly that you state that I haven't discussed things? Like this isn't really alignment relevant (you could say that as either faction) and I just admitted that I've been tunneling you but like I have had other reads on other people.

- Would you volunteer to be a lynch to prevent everyone else from losing? Can you speak for the rest of the game?

- The majority of your push has been on me, with your Elieson vote being an admitted sheep.

. . .and then a vote on Conq. While I think recharging his role is nice, I'd rather not lose outright due to lack of consolidation. Who ELSE do you want lynched, besides me?

Can people comment about their reads on Scarlet, actually?

You guys are lynching me before you lynch him.

I'm confused: are you calling 4 words fluff?

Elieson was fond of calling some of my arguments fluff. BBM put out genuine fluff (according to town, anyone could be scum), and Elieson failed to catch that, despite his tunneling. This is why I think Elieson's case is more emotional than logical.

Lynch priorities are a bit messy, but it's currently Refa > SB/Strege (only because these wagons are likely to go through) > Manix > me/Elieson. Manix still reads busy/null, but at this point, a lynch must happen.

[charlie_]

Spamposting this was a joke because I kept thinking of more stuff I needed to say after I posted. And I know 1 vote wagons probably aren't going to work, but how am I scummy for saying who I would prefer lynched if I could get anyone?

Bad cases don't have to be bad because of emotions? They can be bad because the person who makes them is mafia, so I really don't get your approach to BBM/Eli at all. Missing one possible point that you could make on someone doesn't mean that a thing.

[Refa]

Should I claim?

Not unless you're cop and you have a guilty on someone.

##Unvote

##Vote: Manix

I feel better about this than I do SB. Nothing really new to say about Manix, but I did read up on MLP Mafia and SB's behavior is noticeably different.

[Kaoz]

Claim is null, it's a Prims game. I can see a lot of arguments for scum!Rolecop not claiming as Rolecop too so I don't agree with that either.

Could you name some?

Are those priorities just out of the people who seem like reasonable wagons?

Yes. If I could lynch anyone, I'd still go with j00.

For townie points and/or to attempt to paint CLIPSEY! in a worse light? He wasn't a lynch target at that point, so he had little to be afraid of when using that argument.

That works as initial argument, yes, but he kept holding onto it for a while even after he got criticized for it I believe, so it still doesn't feel that way to me.

Anyway, still feel the same as earlier regarding priority:

##Unvote

##Vote: SB

Also, leaning town on Raymond. I forgot about that in my earlier post actually. Also, I'm gone now. Not gonna out my role stuff because nobody except SB requested it.

[eclipse]

Spamposting this was a joke because I kept thinking of more stuff I needed to say after I posted. And I know 1 vote wagons probably aren't going to work, but how am I scummy for saying who I would prefer lynched if I could get anyone?

Bad cases don't have to be bad because of emotions? They can be bad because the person who makes them is mafia, so I really don't get your approach to BBM/Eli at all. Missing one possible point that you could make on someone doesn't mean that a thing.

That's everyone with a vote. Should I assume that everyone with no vote are people you don't want lynched? Because if we're going to count people like that, I'd have Kaoz somewhere towards the tail end of that, because that vote on j00 wasn't going to push her lynch hard enough to matter at this point, and after that vote on Bal, felt like another safe play. However, I'm not about to start a flash-wagon based on a weak suspicion.

Once a case goes off the emotional end, it starts reading null to me. If I want a waste of space, I'd rather have spam-posting. I'd like to see Elieson/BBM with a lot less emotion, for the sake of my reads. It's a completely and utterly selfish request.

[eclipse]

. . .and Kaoz goes to bed. BAH.

[charlie_]

1. Rolecop makes people automatically think a scum role, a lot.

2. It means that a mafia rolecop!Manix can hide his targets in case he scans an important power role and then he can kill them without alerting the town that he knew it.

3. Not wanting to get counterclaimed by a town Cop or something similar.

There were a few others, but I forget what they were atm.

I'm guessing people want me to claim now?

[BBM]

Elie- yes, I unvote Manix, but literally right as I do it, I say that I'm still wary of him. Dropping him from my #1 scumread to my #2 or 3 doesn't mean I'm not suspicious of him or that I suddenly found him townie (at that point), which is what you're implying. And I as scum would prefer a mislynch to a no lynch in almost any situation, including D1, and especially in a situation where the mislynch comes purely due to consolidation. You don't get shit for associative reads from mislynches where half the wagon is voting there purely to get a lynch and not because they find him scummy.

Also, considering my vote was on j00 for like half of the phase are you really asking me why I targeted her? Yes, I did find her suspicious. I was kind of waffling but I didn't have any other reads at the time. Right now I think she's town though, off her posts this phase.

@Conq- the two parts of your claim felt incongruent to me and I thought you were lying somewhere. If I'd been less tired I probably would have thought of a shot-based ability or thought that you might be pulling some sort of reaction test but meh.

I don't get why people think Manix is scum. There's no reason to make an almost functional Vanilla claim to save yourself from a lynch. People keep saying "but WIFOM" except nobody actually claims Vanilla to save themselves from a lynch ever because a lot of people would rather lynch a Vanilla at deadline over a PR just because it's less risk.

Don't get SB wagon either; he is literally the most obvtown person in the thread. basically both these wagons suck

[Scarlet]

As stated before, I'll take an SB lynch over a Manix lynch, so:

##Unvote

##Welcome: SB

You did not respond to this, by the way.

As for claiming, there's really not much point in not claiming if you're about to get lynched. I think I explained this somewhere in the info dump.

[charlie_]

That's everyone with a vote. Should I assume that everyone with no vote are people you don't want lynched? Because if we're going to count people like that, I'd have Kaoz somewhere towards the tail end of that, because that vote on j00 wasn't going to push her lynch hard enough to matter at this point, and after that vote on Bal, felt like another safe play. However, I'm not about to start a flash-wagon based on a weak suspicion.

Once a case goes off the emotional end, it starts reading null to me. If I want a waste of space, I'd rather have spam-posting. I'd like to see Elieson/BBM with a lot less emotion, for the sake of my reads. It's a completely and utterly selfish request.

The four people I listed are the only ones who I really think are scum right now. And I wouldn't really call it a flashwagon considering the biggest one we had was at 3 votes or something.

I really don't see the Elieson/BBM exchanges being emotional in the slightest.

[eclipse]

1. Rolecop makes people automatically think a scum role, a lot.

2. It means that a mafia rolecop!Manix can hide his targets in case he scans an important power role and then he can kill them without alerting the town that he knew it.

3. Not wanting to get counterclaimed by a town Cop or something similar.

There were a few others, but I forget what they were atm.

I'm guessing people want me to claim now?

First point on rolecop - did you forget my initial Ninja claim, and how I look like a miller to a rolecop? This should've made a straight rolecop claim easier, unless you think I'm scum along with Manix.

BBM - Your heart isn't in the current wagons. Where are they, besides Elieson?

[charlie_]

Cut by Raymond post, I missed the linked thing so I'll look at it in a second, but if I can avoid getting lynched without claiming, I'm always going to do it? There's no point announcing what my role is because it just gives the mafia a smaller pool of roles to find the cop in, or something.

Also uh, does anyone remember Bal claiming miller?

[eclipse]

The four people I listed are the only ones who I really think are scum right now. And I wouldn't really call it a flashwagon considering the biggest one we had was at 3 votes or something.

I really don't see the Elieson/BBM exchanges being emotional in the slightest.

That flash-wagon would be on Kaoz, and it looks like our opinions on Elieson/BBM differ.

[charlie_]

While it is a questionable argument to begin with, what about the part where he claims that you're ignoring others doing the same thing? I do think it warrants a response.

But I literally cannot find you stating this anywhere at all.

Quite the contrary, in fact; the most recent mention of Manix prior to where you voted Vhaltz over him implies the opposite.

Because unlike other people who are doing it, I don't see the thought process behind the sudden change as genuine at all. It feels like he's picking at minimal points, which is basically what he's doing with his BBM case too.

Also, the key part of that post is that I didn't think he was town. I thought he was null for the most part.