Big NOCers - Game Over

[Conqueror]

##Unvote

I didn't get a secret message but I can confirm that I did get an item.

[Conqueror]

EBWOP: And that it's probably from Strege. Meh.

[Conqueror]

Anyway, this explains why Bal questioned the ninja claim, though I wonder why he kept silent about his own miller one. Now I'm annoyed by his reluctance to talk about me. ;/

The immediate effect of this is to switch my read on Kaoz to null;

eclipse, can you explain why your read on Kaoz switched from scummy to null after the person he was pushing flipped town?

[Conqueror]

EBWOP again: re:strege's item: assuming it's not a dud item, I guess?

re: my thought process. I thought strege and kaoz were the best bets for scum going into the day. then kaoz died, and now given the claim im not as sure on strege anymore.

town seems to have a lot of power though from all the claims.

ill probably have to reread then. no lazy autowin. :<

[Conqueror]

eclipse, can you explain why your read on Kaoz switched from scummy to null after the person he was pushing flipped town?

NVM I CAN'T READ, IGNORE THIS.

[Conqueror]

Do people need to idle in order to use the inventions you make, or ??? (if so, Conq or me would probably be a good recipient?)

SB, did you plan on not using your power to use an invention? Also, can you delay mafia nightkills?

[Strege]

I can barely keep my eyes open atm, but on a reread SB isn't as suspicious to me. The pressure against Manix feels really genuine, and neither innocuous nor bussy enough to irk me. Still a middling scumread to me anywho.

Elieson was fond of calling some of my arguments fluff. BBM put out genuine fluff (according to town, anyone could be scum), and Elieson failed to catch that, despite his tunneling. This is why I think Elieson's case is more emotional than logical.

Lynch priorities are a bit messy, but it's currently Refa > SB/Strege (only because these wagons are likely to go through) > Manix > me/Elieson. Manix still reads busy/null, but at this point, a lynch must happen.

I didn't address the above. I think that bit in parenthesis is a contrived bit of semantics. Also, why was I higher on this list than Manix at the time? I'm looking at the context and I had fewer votes and I think we were similarly placed on other people's vote priorities.

I'm thinking about the "1v1" of eclipse and SB yesterday as well, in terms of reads. Honestly, I can't find scum or town benefit in it -- anyone have thoughts? I need to go to bed.

[eclipse]

So it seems I've got a lone vote because of my interactions towards Manix. Guess what, town can and will screw up; I honestly wasn't reading him as scum. If you want to rolespec, so far, no one in my game has been affected by my role, and it's mildly irritating. I'm treating myself as vanilla despite what my role PM says.

I don't really feel Scarlet as scum, but I also had that SUPER EXCELLENT Manix read, so take that with a grain of salt. Of everyone else, I think that it's a little odd that Strege singled me out for my actions on Manix, while the rest of the game went towards BBM; in my mind, we're guilty of the same thing. Speaking of BBM, the worst thing from him off the top of my head was that early D1 scuffle with Manix, but only because I have Hindsight Goggles and Manix's role PM is public. I think Strege's logic regarding me is worse than what BBM has, so I wouldn't mind lynching him on in-thread content alone. Still haven't decided whether or not town inventor and blacksmith is too many item roles for the town.

Can't really vote for anyone, as both of them are at L-2, and I'm not about to put anyone at L-1.

[eclipse]

. . .and suddenly I'm being tunneled again. I should change my avatar to a Lemming.

[j00]

I think people might be forgetting that eclipse was my secondary scumread and all of my reads were kind of bad to begin with. I feel like people think I was going on SB hard because my arguments were different and I had to spend a lot of time defending their validity, or because I voted him all phase (which brings us back to point A: my reads were kind of bad).

I said I had to leave my computer... Also, I didn't say eclipse had a lot of Manix interactions as you seem to suggest, but that 95% of what she had was stuff I found disconcerting. She does have a probably average amount to say on Manix focused on D1 that talks a lot about how busy Manix is and how she doesn't want to lynch him, without ever giving supported input into either side of a case on him that would look more like defending or contribute to discussion on him.

Actually, wait, let me just quote you from D1: "Elaboration on eclipse, she's defending Manix a lot without many reasons for him being town, being busy and such is at most a null tell, and while I see that you're not convinced he's scum you're not giving compelling evidence for him town when defending him.". This is more or less what I'm talking about.

I suspected eclipse D1, but you seem to be ignoring her D2 where she barely mentioned him at all and in the end she voted him over SB. At the time of these votals she could've easily finalized the wagon in SB. I don't think eclipse and SB are the remaining scumteam either, since there was no point in the 1-vs-1 which had both of them fullclaim.

I really don't know on the blacksmith thing, I'd believe scum would be more inclined to give useful items to their own buddies but we don't know what the item is either. That and two item giving roles.

[j00]

Raymond: any reason for why you're insisting on BBM explaining why I'm town? He changed his mind a long time ago, I also voted him at some point. A lot have happened since them, everyone else have changed their mind about people and I don't see why you're telling him to explain that in more detail than the rest of us? It feels like you're harping on it just to find something to pick on.

[Elieson]

37.5 hours left.

For the time being, I'm aboard this idea. I want to see other people's thoughts on lynches right now.

##Unvote

##Vote Conqueror

BBM throwing his extra vote up right off the bat has made it harder to read people because votes aren't being thrown around since so close to hammer. There's a certain someone who I'd like to see place a vote down right now, and it had better not be on Conq.

I've also seen Fabricators in games, so I'm not sure if it's worth taking a blacksmith claim for full value, unless Conq feels comfortable with said item not being a dud. Sudden ugh read.

Also I failed to clarify earlier, but my role acts as a Roleblock+Doctor, and not as a Roleblock+Omniguard. It's given me some other thoughts that at this point are just downright headache inducing.

Even though my vote's on Conqueror, BBM, Strege and Ray/Hooker nonsense are my lynch priority 1&2 respectively (the former for reasons already stated related to holyshitmanixistown), and Strege for mostly PoE and strange read patterns.

Why is j00 town again? Just because BBM said J00 is obvitown doesn't make him obvitown, in case i'm missing something here. BBM said Manix was town too, and right now, no one should be taking that and considering it's worth in gold, obviously.

[Elieson]

Raymond: any reason for why you're insisting on BBM explaining why I'm town? He changed his mind a long time ago, I also voted him at some point. A lot have happened since them, everyone else have changed their mind about people and I don't see why you're telling him to explain that in more detail than the rest of us? It feels like you're harping on it just to find something to pick on.

You know, you're the only person who hasn't really been closely examined or put under pressure. It's natural to suspect you, at this point, as you stand out as not being put under the spotlight.

[j00]

true, but a better way would be for him to question my posts himself. He's not saying why I'm scummy, he's telling BBM to explian why I'm not scummy, which is a very roundabout way to do it.

also I was under suspicion/discussion a great deal D1, even if I haven't been for a while

[j00]

you also had Manix saying I was scummy D2, but eh

[j00]

I still mainly want to lynch Strege, his eclipse case is meh and he's very waffly on SB and has been kinda vague most of the game

[Scarlet]

Raymond: any reason for why you're insisting on BBM explaining why I'm town? He changed his mind a long time ago, I also voted him at some point. A lot have happened since them, everyone else have changed their mind about people and I don't see why you're telling him to explain that in more detail than the rest of us? It feels like you're harping on it just to find something to pick on.

I'm just trying to understand where that read is even coming from, as if you're as "obvtown" as BBM says you are, I'm sure he can point out why.

He's not saying why I'm scummy, he's telling BBM to explian why I'm not scummy, which is a very roundabout way to do it.

No, that's wrong. I'm not asking him to explain why you're not scummy (I never implied you were), I'm asking him to explain why you're town rather than just null. That's a difference.

[Strege]

I don't really feel Scarlet as scum, but I also had that SUPER EXCELLENT Manix read, so take that with a grain of salt. Of everyone else, I think that it's a little odd that Strege singled me out for my actions on Manix, while the rest of the game went towards BBM; in my mind, we're guilty of the same thing. Speaking of BBM, the worst thing from him off the top of my head was that early D1 scuffle with Manix, but only because I have Hindsight Goggles and Manix's role PM is public. I think Strege's logic regarding me is worse than what BBM has, so I wouldn't mind lynching him on in-thread content alone. Still haven't decided whether or not town inventor and blacksmith is too many item roles for the town.

I see some similarities between you and BBM regarding Manix commentary. However, I think BBM's support for Manix's lynch D1 wasn't necessary for scum and his hard defence D2 was neither a total defence (which he would be arguing away with WIFOM right now, and which would give him free reign to defend Manix more holistically than with just rolespec) nor a concealed defence. I'm townreading BBM.

Is my logic being bad grounds for my lynch? You've expressed no suspicion of me and this deserves support.

. . .and suddenly I'm being tunneled again. I should change my avatar to a Lemming.

I've had a small amount of time to dig through the thread since D3 started, and you're the only person who's turned up scummy for me. If I'm tunnelling you otherwise, I'm sorry.

I suspected eclipse D1, but you seem to be ignoring her D2 where she barely mentioned him at all and in the end she voted him over SB. At the time of these votals she could've easily finalized the wagon in SB. I don't think eclipse and SB are the remaining scumteam either, since there was no point in the 1-vs-1 which had both of them fullclaim.

I really don't know on the blacksmith thing, I'd believe scum would be more inclined to give useful items to their own buddies but we don't know what the item is either. That and two item giving roles.

Her not mentioning Manix much on D2 doesn't change my issue, especially since she was criticized for her for Manix interactions D1. The votal part is true though; I thought more people were interested in a Manix lynch at that point, but on a reread the three people interested in doing it were also the three people voting, for the most part. Bleh. That really knocks my eclipse scumread. I need to dig around some more for reads (I did before, too, but now especially).

The item is kinda important to my claim but I'm not going to say what it is unless I'm still a major lynch candidate at end of phase.

@Scarlet: Why did you vote Refa last phase over Manix and SB? I know you said Manix didn't seem like he was going anywhere as a wagon, but can you say why you thought that?

[Scarlet]

I'm getting kind of frustrated here.

@Scarlet: Why did you vote Refa last phase over Manix and SB? I know you said Manix didn't seem like he was going anywhere as a wagon, but can you say why you thought that?

->

Nobody had expressed terribly much interest in a Manix lynch is why.

Partially because SB and Refa were actually doing things other than defend themselves, partially because I came to the conclusion that my judgement was clouded by my anger and I may have been too harsh on him.

As for voting Refa over SB, SB didn't exist for much of D2 whereas Refa started grabbing my attention, so I put my vote where I did because voting someone when they're not even there doesn't do terribly much unless it's near phase end.

[BBM]

It's a general holistic feel about her posts that I got in D2, which is presumably why most people were also townreading Conq even before the dayvig? Also Manix interactions. Like I said, she voted him early and didn't drop it even when she was the only person remaining on the wagon and she easily could have. Doing so would probably have resulted in someone else being lynched other than Manix.

Also when I say stuff with exclamation marks behind it I am generally joking in some way, especially when there are three of them.

I'm moving my anonyvote from Strege to Raymond so people can be more free with their votes. His explanations don't really cut it for me; he still hasn't satisfactorily explained to me why SB and Refa suddenly became scummier than Manix just before consolidation. All he's saying is that SB and Refa were first more valid wagons and then later not at L-1, and that he found them scummier. Why?

[charlie_]

yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn i need to stop being lazy

Strege's claim doesn't really budge me either way, especially considering the fact we already had an Inventor.

Conq: I can block kills apparently. I suggested myself as a backup because I might've been idling due to using my outright empower, plus kill blocking roles are much stronger at endgame than they are earlier imo.

Reread Raymond and I don't really like his content. He made his initial suspicion on me but then it feels like he's putting as little effort as he can into updating it or analysing my posts - I think yesterday he had a problem with like, one of my posts and called Refa and I out for buddying but the second point is dumb considering town can buddy up to people they think are town too and he never says why we're scum for doing it either.

Considering he basically wanted me lynched heavily I feel like he should've realised that if I'm not posting like scum anymore, I'm probably not scum, but it feels like he's just keeping the read there for the sake of it, saying stuff like "eh SB's claim and deadline posts are null" without explanding on it. His Manix vote D2 followed by subsequent interactions kind of makes me feel like they could be buddies and Raymond didn't think that the Manix wagon would take off like it ended up doing. He also says that lynching Manix would be bad because all he's done is defend himself, which is terrible reasoning considering he was using it vote for Manix previously.

I think I would still rather lynch Strege, but still.

I doubt scum are likely to bus today considering it would be suicidal to go into night with up to three roleblockers and likely 7/1 numberswise, which is something we should take into consideration. I don't think Eli is scum because we haven't had a single protective role so far (I guess you could count me/eclipse) plus my role meshes well with his to make a full doctor, so eh.

[Scarlet]

and called Refa and I out for buddying but the second point is dumb considering town can buddy up to people they think are town too and he never says why we're scum for doing it either.

Wait what

Not even once did I claim that you and Refa were buddying. Where is that even coming from?

Considering he basically wanted me lynched heavily I feel like he should've realised that if I'm not posting like scum anymore, I'm probably not scum, but it feels like he's just keeping the read there for the sake of it, saying stuff like "eh SB's claim and deadline posts are null" without explanding on it.

But I don't get the feeling that you're town, either, and little things like the completely made-up accusation above keep reinforcing a read that I otherwise probably would have dropped by now. (Although why we'd have three town-aligned roleblocker variants is beyond me.)

Also, ITPs may exist.

He also says that lynching Manix would be bad because all he's done is defend himself, which is terrible reasoning considering he was using it vote for Manix previously.

You're twisting my words. You and Refa had done much more compared to Manix, so I felt that lynching either of you over him would've given us more in the way of associative reads. That doesn't change the fact that I found Manix scummy for doing it.

[Scarlet]

Oh, hold on, I think I misinterpreted the buddying thing.

Yes, I did call the two of you out for buddying (but not with each other, as I thought at first).

Yes, town can buddy up with other players they think are town as well, but I consider that bad play when it's overdone. Usually, you'll only buddy with players whom you know are on your side - the most frequent cause of which is being in the same scumteam.

But eh, I guess you're right and I should drop it for now. It's not like anything is coming of this anyway.

[Strege]

You know, you're the only person who hasn't really been closely examined or put under pressure. It's natural to suspect you, at this point, as you stand out as not being put under the spotlight.

This is a silly post. You should investigate j00 instead of telling other people to investigate her -- which is what you're effectively doing here despite your earlier comment that we should merely take BBM's read with a grain of salt (which I'll agree with). Also, I can't find why you're scumreading Scarlet. Would you mind explaining or linking me to it?

eclipse should explain why she is apparently content to lynch either me or BBM, seeing as she hasn't expressed any significant suspicion of either of us. This is especially bizarre considering that she said that she and BBM are guilty of the "same thing" and is presumably defending herself when she says "town can screw up" and says I'm tunnelling her (the tunnelling might not be related to that specifically, idk).

SB has slightly good Manix interactions imo. The only exception is the fact that he was able to pull a bunch of complaints about Manix out of thin air in this post. I find it somewhat suspicious that his reads last phase were Elie and I (reactionary) and Manix (who he managed to pull a detailed case on out of thin air?). I need to reevaluate here but "somewhat scummy" is a fair descriptor of my opinion on SB.

Scarlet, j00, and Conq seem okay. I mentioned I was townreading BBM. I still don't totally get Refa (and I don't want to press a case that's probably reliant on player-dependent things more than anything) but I'm not a fan of his increasing effort yesterday only when suspicion started to weigh on him, and being far less productive ever since he was almost lynched.

People not being able to vote without hammering isn't a problem. People not looking for scum is. So you (my hypothetical friend) think BBM or I are scum? Okay. The daytime is a limited resource and it's not really being used right now though.

"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;" AND A TIME TO LYNCH SCUMBAGS

I'll write more later, and particularly look more into Elie. The thing I pointed out about eclipse really bothers me though so I'm good with my vote atm.

[Prims]

Day 3.2 - Votals

BigBangMeteor (2): Refa, Scarlet

Conqueror (2): j00, Elieson

eclipse (1): Strege

Scarlet (1): ????????

Strege (1): BigBangMeteor

Not Voting: Conqueror, eclipse, SB

You have 25 hours and 15 minutes left in the day. With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.