whats with the Emmeryn hate i keep hearing about?

[Gazdakka]

I think what caused me to dislike her the most was when she was "brought back" with no memory. I felt like it really softened the impact of her death (no pun intended), and it just gave me this really bitter aftertaste for feeling sad about her cutscene. It was bad and most likely a poor attempt at a "happy ending" for the protagonist, and man, I just hate it. She was just... better off dead. She was a nice lady, but not a good character.

She has bad self-esteem issues, but at the very least, carries herself out to war on a flying horse and punches the prince in the face with her armored hand of doom. Feel what you want about Sumia, but I don't think she's that weak. Tbh only around Chrom...

Well fair enough, you're free to view her in any way you like. In my opinion, she's one of the weakest characters of the bunch in terms of personality (bar Noire and Olivia mayhaps); I just don't like the way she pours all her beliefs into something she acknowledges is total rubbish in order to do anything. Doesn't stop me from playing her equally with the rest of the cast though.

In fantasy stories/games in general, bending of the laws of physics are allowed as long as the changes make sense within the game's world. However, Awakening's world is one where two countries have very poor relations and one is terrorizing the other with Bandits, and it's simply not possible in that context for a sensible ruler to think they can get away with an army of 8.

I can admit I'm probably soft on the game given that my point of comparison is usually against Final Fantasy: a series where more often than not, a group of 8 or so teenagers somehow end up altering the fate of not just the continent they're standing on, but the goddamned planet. Still, it's not uncommon for fantasy games to consist of a couple, maybe even one, person defeating entire armies and ending up on top. If I let common sense dictate my appreciation of video games, I wouldn't finish the vast majority of them.

On a separate note, I'm probably a hypocrite. I like Star Wars, but I hate Star Wars: The Force Unleashed for making a Mary-Sue character that jumps into the movie storyline and bends the laws and defeats Darth Vader and the Emperor single-handedly, thus depreciating the value of well, any other character. However, I was of the mindset that the Fire Emblem Lords across the generations are equal in their own way.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Gazdakka

[BrightBow]

Sorry, but I figured that playing a game where magic is abound and dragons and bunny-changing people exist could merit some suspension of disbelief. But I digress, I haven't really followed the Fire Emblem series, so I assume there's a precedent theme that I've missed.

Suspension of Disbelief simply means that one accepts a world with dragons and magic. It doesn't mean that one ignores logic entirely.

Certain things are most certainly required to be accepted due to gameplay limitations. Like castles being so easy to conquer.

But it's not difficult to show in the context of a Fire Emblem game that the units on the maps are just representatives of an actual army.

For Awakening, it would be sufficient to just put in a few generics in a few scenes and not have everyone talk like they are a highschool class on a trip. The game does it better later on, when it admits that the enemy fleet is just as large as that of Chrom's force while having twice as much manpower. Then we later learn that Wallhart has like a million men at his disposal, which gives us a good idea what kind of forces clash against each other.

Edited May 19, 2014 by BrightBow

[Gazdakka]

Suspension of Disbelief simply means that one accepts a world with dragons and magic. It doesn't mean that one ignores logic entirely.

Certain things are most certainly required to be accepted due to gameplay limitations. Like castles being so easy to conquer.

But it's not difficult to show in the context of a Fire Emblem game that the units on the maps are just representatives of an actual army.

For Awakening, it would be sufficient to just put in a few generics in a few scenes and not have everyone talk like they are a highschool class on a trip. The game does it better later on, when it admits that the enemy fleet is just as large as that of Chrom's force while having twice as much manpower. Then we later learn that Wallhart has like a million men at his disposal, which gives us a good idea what kind of forces clash against each other.

IMHO I figured that there were a bunch of generic soldiers that made up Ylisse's army. Why would there be a squad of pegasus knights if there were no other elements to their standing army? I mean, I'm not one to believe that Frederick is the *only* Great Knight at the start, and there are a couple of moments in conversations (e.g: Fred/Miriel, DLC) where other units are spotted training with or talking about them, which would allude to there being a force of some kind besides the Shepherds. We just simply don't get told about them.

As for the support conversations, it didn't really occur to me that they could have been a lot more glum about it. I guess it doesn't really matter to me because again, I stack it against Final Fantasy and it's a Japanese game. Look at Valkyria Chronicles: highschool drama in alternative WWII - it's not something that's uncommon.

So yes, they could have played up the scale of things and the seriousness of the war, but it wasn't tantamount to my enjoyment of it. To each their own, I guess.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Gazdakka

[Baldrick]

Why would there be a squad of pegasus knights if there were no other elements to their standing army?

Compared to magic and dragons and shape-changing rabbits, an army containing a squad of pegasus knights and 8 other people is quite believable.

[Gazdakka]

Compared to magic and dragons and shape-changing rabbits, an army containing a squad of pegasus knights and 8 other people is quite believable.

I'm sure it is, but like I said, the appearance of the other generic NPCs in conversation suggests otherwise.

But that's besides the point. It could just be 5 generic NPCs and 8 Shepherds and a squad of pegasus knights, or it could be 100 generic NPCs - the game doesn't really indicate the size of Ylisse's military, only that the Shepherds are at the forefront of the main battles. We probably won't ever know given Fire Emblem's traditional manner of following different periods in time, unless they try the whole legacy thing again (god willing they don't use the old drawings again...)

[Tamanoir]

I think what caused me to dislike her the most was when she was "brought back" with no memory. I felt like it really softened the impact of her death (no pun intended), and it just gave me this really bitter aftertaste for feeling sad about her cutscene. It was bad and most likely a poor attempt at a "happy ending" for the protagonist, and man, I just hate it. She was just... better off dead. She was a nice lady, but not a good character.

This. This was the worst idea of Spotpass chapter they had. And the others weren't all top quality.

If they had done something like with Yen'fay (not the most original idea, but he was handled so much better in absolutely every point. And his death affects Say'ri (not one of the main character) more than Emm's death too), that would have been far better.

Besides, if it was supposed to be an happy ending, they fail remarkably at that.

I may be weird, but I think dying for your cause is a far better end than leaving the rest of your life as a mindless puppet.

This is a complete contradiction to everything FE7 and 8 told us, about accepting the death of our loved one (Uther. Another character that was handled far better.)

So, this is the kind of point when I don't really mind, but the more I think about it, the more angry it makes me.

[BANRYU]

I didn't mind Emm even though she was a pretty poor character... The playable Emmeryn is the one that bothers me. She just.... creeps me the heck out, and her condition is rarely if ever addressed by the others. Eugh.

Also WTF she can't even support with her siblings of all people? Weak.

Edited May 19, 2014 by BANRYU

[Gazdakka]

Also WTF she can't even support with her siblings of all people? Weak.

This is what makes me think it was a last-minute addition that they didn't really think through. Nice as it is to get the characters themselves, they're not fleshed out enough to be worth it.

[BrightBow]

Last minute addition? I doubt that. They are intended as marriage fodder for the Avatar. And that's exactly what they provide.

Emmeryn herself is the best example for that because it's not just that she doesn't support her siblings. Having no memory means nothing less then her loosing everything that made her the person she was, including being the sister of Chrom and Lissa. She has become an entirely different character who consequently wouldn't even have anything to say to the two of them. There would be no reason to bring her back under those circumstances unless she is merely intended for marriage.

And as a waifu, the amnesia is a huge improvement. She is confused, vulnerable and dependant like an infant. That gives her a massive moe appeal.

Edited May 19, 2014 by BrightBow

[NobodiePichu]

Last minute addition? I doubt that. They are intended as marriage fodder for the Avatar. And that's exactly what they provide.

Emmeryn herself is the best example for that because it's not just that she doesn't support her siblings. Having no memory means nothing less then her loosing everything that made her the person she was, including being the sister of Chrom and Lissa. She has become an entirely different character who consequently wouldn't even have anything to say to the two of them. There would be no reason to bring her back under those circumstances unless she is merely intended for marriage.

And as a waifu, the amnesia is a huge improvement. She is confused, vulnerable and dependant like an infant. That gives her a massive moe appeal.

yeaaaah. . . yeaaaaah. . . yeah that's true.

same is true of all the spotpass, and even really all the characters in the game.

[Elieson]

Compared to magic and dragons and shape-changing rabbits, an army containing a squad of pegasus knights and 8 other people is quite believable.

Plegia gave Ylisse 800 Warships and 200 Transports (but no soldiers).

So obviously, Ylisse amassed its dozen warriors to lead seige against the Valmese fleet with the 1000 boats.

Yea...I'm more inclined to believe that immense armies actually did exist.

---

But I digress...I'm not a big fan of the Emmeryn Bringback, and how she ended up WAAYYYY over there either, when obviously most Plegians and all of Ylisseans valued her. How does an amnesiac just wake up across the country without the powers of TIME TRAVELLLLLLLL?

[Czar_Yoshi]

This is what makes me think it was a last-minute addition that they didn't really think through. Nice as it is to get the characters themselves, they're not fleshed out enough to be worth it.

It's possible. Looking at her Paralogue, it's both a map copied from another game, and not even properly coded- the enemies are Grimleal, but they have Risen voice effects.

[Mighty Kamina]

For me personally, I dislike Emmeryn because I feel that her story and character are weak, especially compared to previous FE rulers. I don't mind her being pacifistic and wanting to avoid war. The problem is that she constantly makes poor decision after poor decision in the name of "peace", things that could've been avoided (such as getting captured by Plegia in the first place and chapter 9).

Emmeryn is a weak ruler. A good person, but a weak ruler. She's so intent on atoning for the previous exalt's war that she basically leaves Ylisse without a military to protect its people. She keeps on going back to Ylisstol because "the people would panic" if they found out she left. Never mind that FE has a precedent of royals fleeing their country or palace, not because they are selfish but because the country would be in worse shit if they died.

The biggest problem with this is that the game never acknowledges that Emmeryn is a poor ruler. Look at previous games like FE8 and FE9, even FE7. Rulers who were pacifistic and too idealistic (Eliwood, Eirika, Elincia) would often have to suck up their ideals and realize that in WAR you can't hold back. Elincia had an entire character arc where she goes from an idealistic naive ruler to one who gets shit done, and she didn't even have to give up her pacifistic ideals while being a good leader. When you compare them to Emmeryn, you see just how much potential Emmeryn had to either grow, or for Chrom to learn from her mistakes while believing in her ideals. Neither happens. She's just praised mindlessly like a paragon of good when she … wasn't fit for a ruler and didn't do anything for her country.

To quote Kratos Aurion: "Incompetent good intentions will only bring tragedy."

I think if they had shown something along the lines of that with Emmeryn, her impact to the story would have been much better. Instead the game worships her as a flawless leader.

About Chrom worshipping her, I would have liked it if he had acknowledged her flaws, or if they kept this route have the game acknowledge him as a weak leader himself, maybe even getting him killed off as well. (Possibly by Walhart or sometime around then) Chrom is the most incompetent lord in the series. Anyone who's idea of changing the future is doing the same things as before but thinking they'll go differently deserves to lose.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Kamina

[BANRYU]

I found a comic that encapsulates the problems with Emmeryn pretty well

[RJWalker]

Oh man that's perfect.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

this made my day alot better after my failed laztech eye sugury, thanks alot.

[BANRYU]

Behehehe glad it helped, man.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

As for the support conversations, it didn't really occur to me that they could have been a lot more glum about it. I guess it doesn't really matter to me because again, I stack it against Final Fantasy and it's a Japanese game. Look at Valkyria Chronicles: highschool drama in alternative WWII - it's not something that's uncommon.

It shows you haven't really followed the series, because it's not like it never had humor or comic support/base conversations, but it sure wasn't as exaggerated as, say, Persona 4 or other modern JRPG's.

Not to say that those are bad games, mind this, but Fire Emblem always had a different feeling from them: it wasn't exaggerated or over the top, nor it featured many teenagers talking about cake in the middle of war, it was just a normal fantasy setting with a big focus on war/conflict between different factions.

Okay, it still featured cute girls with war skirts and handsome young men with long hair, but it felt sober and more plausible that Awakening. You didn't have 10 y-o Queens who somehow managed to stay alive and ruled a whole country by themselves (what????).

(There indeed was a young Empress, but it was actually a Senate that ruled the country, and she had many, many people behind her back, and her people didn't lapidate her; she felt more like a living symbol, than a ruler, and it's legitimate considering her age, it reminds me of the Roman Empire)

But more importantly, plot important characters who died in the main events never came back to life: they stayed dead.

In fact, IIRC, in some games in the series, the ending monologues and some minor (and major) story scenes changed depending on which of your units died in the battlefield.

Awakening made one major character die and then made her come back to life just to be waifu material or for whathever other reason they had in mind (_-*One Big Family With Invisible Ties*-_ reasons??).

It's beyond legitimate if old time fans of the series flip their tables over this shit, and it's legitimate for newer fans too: this is not about "Lol it's an rpg anything can change happen!", this is about turning an important event in the story (whether this event was good or not, it doesn't matter) into dust, this is about making her sacrifice even more useless than it was, and, especially, this is about something that's beyond improbable for the series' standards, it's even more stupid than her turning into the Exalt Queen of Yilisse when she was 10.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

you can bet i flipped my shit at all the times people didn't stay dead in awakening.

i feel like an old man cause its like "BACK IN MY DAYS, WHEN A UNIT'S HITPOINTS REACHES ZERO THEY STAY DEAD"

it really insults all the other characters who die in the other fire emblem games.

Edited May 21, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[BrightBow]

I made my feelings about the way she was brought back clear on the previous page but on a fundamental level, I don't actually mind the return of dead believed characters. Stuff like that isn't too uncommon. Spock's death in Star Trek II: Wrath of Khan comes to mind, seeing how he is one of the most iconic Television characters ever. And that one is considered a great movie.

In fact, I believe that there would have been great potential to be had with her if she was simply brought back as the person she was. What would she have to say about the wars that have been fought since then by people who wanted to follow her example? How does this affect the way she sees her own rulership? I bet there is tons of stuff that a creative person can do with a person that visits the future that their death set in motion.

I guess characters should at least stay death until the story is over but I don't consider Spotpass maps as a part of that story anyway.

Edited May 21, 2014 by BrightBow

[PuffPuff]

She's a testament to how terrible the story of Awakening is. It's one thing to be idealistic and pacifistic and another to be completely fucking unrealistic and stupid.

Even though that the story is terrible...it won't stop me from playing it to pieces loving the gameplay and the amount of more things that you can do more than any other game in the series after finishing the main story. Only FE10 and TearRingSaga beats this gameplay.

My problem with Emm is that she was made to die. Her death is the only thing memorable about her. She was just too perfect to stay alive.

It pisses some people off.

But...she always will be my favorite character of this game for bringing light and sincerity to it!

This. This was the worst idea of Spotpass chapter they had. And the others weren't all top quality.

If they had done something like with Yen'fay (not the most original idea, but he was handled so much better in absolutely every point. And his death affects Say'ri (not one of the main character) more than Emm's death too), that would have been far better.

Besides, if it was supposed to be an happy ending, they fail remarkably at that.

I may be weird, but I think dying for your cause is a far better end than leaving the rest of your life as a mindless puppet.

This is a complete contradiction to everything FE7 and 8 told us, about accepting the death of our loved one (Uther. Another character that was handled far better.)

So, this is the kind of point when I don't really mind, but the more I think about it, the more angry it makes me.

Nothing is worse than death. When you die, your gone. Period.

-----

It's awful to say anything bad about her when she has done something that nobody else would ever do. She had to do this as she distained fighting altogether. Even though it sadly gets in vain later in the game. She is a person beyond renown and should be nicknamed the "cleric of light." She truely is at that. Nintendo only gave her another chance at life as it would be rather cruel if she died even with her not so good decesion. But...she distained fighting and it's not her fault. Her sacrifice DID change the world some. So...it wasn't a loss. How can anyone possibly hate her? Even though Phila had to carry on with something that Emm couldn't do herself. She even let Cordelia's bitches die without giving it a strand of thought of her mistake. x.x

Talking about a Mahanya reference beyond belief.(FE4)

IS really went lazy with Phila's and Cordelia's pegs story that it is -.- beyond belief.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40867&page=2

^

I

I

Here and...

Emmeryn is the strongest, most noble girl on the planet. No one would even dare to do that honorable sacrifice. As I've said here before, she DIDN'T expect to live. Some guy off the street only found her an nursed her, otherwise she would have died. She still is dead emotionally except for her softlike attitude. How can you not have compassion for this girl? The deities only gave her another chance at life for such a courageous, honorable, sincere act. Plus she never sees any evil in people, ...or possesses none herself. She doesn't posses a single negative thought. Did she get scared when she jumped off the cliff, no. Did she yell and scream f u to Gangrel, no. Did she allow the other soldiers in Ylisse to help protect her, no. She cared for those people. Just how can you not understand on how perfect and noble that this woman really is...? If anyone, I repeat, anyone has even a glimpse of her thinking and compassion, the world would be a better place.

So...

Emmeryn gets my eternal respect.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Barbie

[NobodiePichu]

Nothing is worse than death. When you die, your gone. Period.

-----

It's awful to say anything bad about her when she has done something that nobody else would ever do. She had to do this as she distained fighting altogether. Even though it sadly gets in vain later in the game. She is a person beyond renown and should be nicknamed the "cleric of light." She truely is at that. Nintendo only gave her another chance at life as it would be rather cruel if she died even with her not so good decesion. But...she distained fighting and it's not her fault. Her sacrifice DID change the world some. So...it wasn't a loss. How can anyone possibly hate her? Even though Phila had to carry on with something that Emm couldn't do herself. She even let Cordelia's bitches die without giving it a strand of thought of her mistake. x.x

Talking about a Mahanya reference beyond belief.(FE4)

IS really went lazy with Phila's and Cordelia's pegs story that it is -.- beyond belief.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40867&page=2

^

I

I

Here and...

Emmeryn is the strongest, most noble girl on the planet. No one would even dare to do that honorable sacrifice. As I've said here before, she DIDN'T expect to live. Some guy off the street only found her an nursed her, otherwise she would have died. She still is dead emotionally except for her softlike attitude. How can you not have compassion for this girl? The deities only gave her another chance at life for such a courageous, honorable, sincere act. Plus she never sees any evil in people, ...or possesses none herself. She doesn't posses a single negative thought. Did she get scared when she jumped off the cliff, no. Did she yell and scream f u to Gangrel, no. Did she allow the other soldiers in Ylisse to help protect her, no. She cared for those people. Just how can you not understand on how perfect and noble that this woman really is...? If anyone, I repeat, anyone has even a glimpse of her thinking and compassion, the world would be a better place.

So...

Emmeryn gets my eternal respect.

living a life not knowing who you where and dying as a completely different person with no memories of a life you left behind sounds worse than just being dead to me. just my opinion

_____________

Emms sacrifice is just there to pull the ol heartstrings, it doesn't actually men anything story wise and was very avoidable, it also contributed almost nothing in the long run. in short it's a sham of a sacrifice that could have been handled sooo much better. i mean yeah Emms nice and all but I'd hate to know her in real life, that and she has no spine. by your own argument of death being worse then mindless life her sacrificing herself was a coward's way out as she would have lived to deal with her mistakes if she was strong. it was an interesting idea but the player gets almost no real reason to connect with her, her ideals and practices are praised with no real understanding or attempt to rationalize them, and said ideals and practices cause more harm in the long run then they do help. my biggest problem with her is the way everyone throws themselves at her feet objectifying her from multiple angles, both from a all hail god and lets hang draw and quarter her perspective.

a real arc could have been made for her as well as giving her more of a character by giving her more relations with characters that actually mean something. hell just play on her upbringing pacifist ways and play them against a situation that actually calls for tough decisions and you g=could get a real good arc for her.

and there are sooo many more problems with her but im sure people can figure them out on there own.

______________

about that 10 year old ruler thing earlier in the topic, don't worry about it there were a lot of cases were rulers were like five when they started to rule so i can stomach it i guess. from a certain angle though.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Nothing is worse than death. When you die, your gone. Period.

Whether that's true or not, there are definitely people who feel it isn't. Otherwise there would be no suicides.

Anyway, that's real life, this is fiction. Here, reality is in the eye of the beholder, and that would include a character's legacy. When characters die, they stop changing and either get their last act enshrined or forgotten about. In Emmeryn's case, her last act was (or at least the game said it was) glorious- stopping a cataclysmic war is a pretty good legacy to leave. Once Emmeryn returns, she goes from being Emmeryn the war-ender to Emmeryn the amnesiac waifu, and that's a huge downgrade. Now, it wouldn't be a bad thing if she was instead used to provide backstory, character interaction or something that had a positive impact on the story, but that wasn't the case.

Also, pro tip: when using rhetorical questions to back up your argument, make sure that the answers your audience will think of are actually the ones you want. This goes double if rhetorical questions actually are your argument.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

"when you die, your gone, period."

that line made me think of "*tips fedora*"

Edited May 22, 2014 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[PuffPuff]

living a life not knowing who you where and dying as a completely different person with no memories of a life you left behind sounds worse than just being dead to me. just my opinion

_____________

Emms sacrifice is just there to pull the ol heartstrings, it doesn't actually men anything story wise and was very avoidable, it also contributed almost nothing in the long run. in short it's a sham of a sacrifice that could have been handled sooo much better. i mean yeah Emms nice and all but I'd hate to know her in real life, that and she has no spine. by your own argument of death being worse then mindless life her sacrificing herself was a coward's way out as she would have lived to deal with her mistakes if she was strong. it was an interesting idea but the player gets almost no real reason to connect with her, her ideals and practices are praised with no real understanding or attempt to rationalize them, and said ideals and practices cause more harm in the long run then they do help. my biggest problem with her is the way everyone throws themselves at her feet objectifying her from multiple angles, both from a all hail god and lets hang draw and quarter her perspective.

a real arc could have been made for her as well as giving her more of a character by giving her more relations with characters that actually mean something. hell just play on her upbringing pacifist ways and play them against a situation that actually calls for tough decisions and you g=could get a real good arc for her.

and there are sooo many more problems with her but im sure people can figure them out on there own.

______________

about that 10 year old ruler thing earlier in the topic, don't worry about it there were a lot of cases were rulers were like five when they started to rule so i can stomach it i guess. from a certain angle though.

Her character could have been better. But...since it isn't, is to why that IS dismissed her till postgame. But...she is still a pacifist to the very end which that is what makes her such an individual that anyone sincere would want to protect and care for.