Rape By Women Under-reported?

[FionordeQuester]

I was talking with my Dad today, about a variety of things (he was telling me about the dangers of being too affectionate with kids so soon after what was called the "Michael Jackson Age"), and as the conversation went off on different tangents, my Dad brought up one interesting point. Basically, I told him how something like 90-99% of all rapists are men, and he told me...

"Yeah. But do those statistics include stuff like High School teachers seducing 13-14 year old boys?"

So I thought about it...and thought "huh...dunno". Up till now, I always just took it for granted that men were much more likely to be rapists (if for no other reason than for how much easier it would be for men to do it), but then he mentioned that. And if such seduction doesn't count as rape according to our government...well then, it really should. It's still entrapment of someone weak, and who's not in a position of power, by someone who's a grownup and IS in a position of power, you know? Not to mention how screwed up a young boy can be by such an experience...

So, looked it up on the U.S. Bureau of Justice, and got this as the definition...

Forced sexual intercourse including both psychological coercion as well as physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal or oral penetration by the offender (s). This category also includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle. Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape.

And now I still don't know what to think. I mean, psychological coercion, that's on there. But reading the studies, and the rest of the description, the description itself does indeed seem heavily slanted towards male on female rape rather than treating the two crimes as different sorts of rape. So I don't know whether the scenario my Dad brought up is actually counted as rape...

If it isn't...one wonders if the reported number of female rapists would shoot up a great deal. Rather scary implications, that...So what do you guys think?

[euklyd]

Quite sure that the statistics show that all rape is underreported.

Female on male rape might be more underreported, but I'm not seeing why female on male rape deserves more special attention? Rape is rape is rape. Rape is bad. Why is female on male rape especially "scary implications"?

[dondon151]

I was talking with my Dad today, about a variety of things (he was telling me about the dangers of being too affectionate with kids so soon after what was called the "Michael Jackson Age"), and as the conversation went off on different tangents, my Dad brought up one interesting point. Basically, I told him how something like 90-99% of all rapists are men, and he told me...

"Yeah. But do those statistics include stuff like High School teachers seducing 13-14 year old boys?"

and you should have called out your dad right there, for suggesting the ludicrous idea that female-on-male rape is so underreported that its figures would be parity with the converse should we account for the relatively rare incident of female teachers raping their male students..

[MercyWalk]

Seduction count as rape? Do you realize how tricky that can be in the courtroom and what a waste of time it would be? I could interpret a range of words my high school teachers and I shared that would count as seduction where it was just flirting for the sake of having fun. If you're talking about seduction where it leads up to the victim being sexually touched and wanting it, then I'm pretty sure that's already illegal if it's involved with minors.

The reason seduction wouldn't be illegal between people past 18 is because they are expected to have matured enough to make their own decisions.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Alb

[Lord Raven]

Male on female rape also occurs a million times more often than female on male, even if there are a few cases of teachers seducing male students.

I've actually been taught by a male teacher who seduced a female student for 2-3 years. He went to jail for quite a few years and is now on pedophile watch.

[FionordeQuester]

Why is female on male rape especially "scary implications"?

What I meant is that if it was, indeed, not counted in the statistics. If it already IS though, then that's that. You've already answered my question right there.

Seduction count as rape?

It is when it's an authority figure that's much older than his/her students, whose brains aren't even fully formed yet.

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Ϲharlie]

It is when it's an authority figure that's much older than his/her students, whose brains aren't even fully formed yet.

You may wish to come up with a different standard seeing as the brain isn't fully developed until at least 25.

[FionordeQuester]

You may wish to come up with a different standard seeing as the brain isn't fully developed until at least 25.

The point is, the union of your typical High School teacher and a student is not at all a union of equals. Yes, I'm sure there are some teenagers who are just as capable as an adult, but I'll bet you anything that for most of them, they're going to be more impressionable, vulnerable, etc. than a typical adult, not to mention that a teacher has a certain level of physical and psychological leverage on their students.

So yes, I do believe a seduction of a minor by a teacher counts as rape.

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[MercyWalk]

Did you read the rest of my post?

[FionordeQuester]

Did you read the rest of my post?

Yes I did. But the rest of it sounded more like a logical argument as to why my opinion didn't make sense as opposed to you explaining why the U.S. Bureau wouldn't count such instances as rape.

And I never said that seduction would be illegal past 18. I'm saying the seduction of a minor would be considered such...although now that someone brought it up, that IS described as "Statutory Rape", so I guess that would indeed be counted in the rape statistics!

Guess we got that answered then. You can close the thread now mods!

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[euklyd]

The point is, the union of your typical High School teacher and a student is not at all a union of equals. Yes, I'm sure there are some teenagers who are just as capable as an adult, but I'll bet you anything that for most of them, they're going to be more impressionable, vulnerable, etc. than a typical adult, not to mention that a teacher has a certain level of physical and psychological leverage on their students.

So yes, I do believe a seduction of a minor by a teacher counts as rape.

sidenote: pretty sure that "union" generally refers to marriage, which is not at all what is being discussed here.

Also, such a 'relationship' is unequal due to the power dynamic as well; it's not just an age thing (a relationship between a teacher at university and his/her students is also Not A Good Thing).

Yes I did. But the rest of it sounded more like a logical argument as to why my opinion didn't make sense as opposed to you explaining why the U.S. Bureau wouldn't count such instances as rape.

And I never said that seduction would be illegal past 18. I'm saying the seduction of a minor would be considered such...although now that someone brought it up, that IS described as "Statutory Rape", so I guess that would indeed be counted in the rape statistics!

Guess we got that answered then. You can close the thread now mods!

The whole issue of "not being reported" has nothing to do with it being counted by people compile statistics j/s.

But if you want the thread closed then okay?

Edited May 11, 2014 by Euklyd

[Snowy_One]

IMO a lot of it has to do with 'male culture'. To a man having sex of any kind is often viewed as some sort of achievement or victory. It's what men are taught to see. Successful men get ideal women, bad men end up loner virgins. So when a man gets seduced and raped it's seen as a success on the mans part. I.E. the female teacher didn't seduce and rape the twelve-year-old student, the twelve-year-old student scored with an older woman. Worse, if a man actually brings it forwards he risks a lot of negative reprisal from other men who will think he's weird, possibly gay (either for not wanting a woman or for being in a position like that with a man in the first place), and a lot more.

That being said, I do believe a lot of men have been forced into sex unwillingly. Using sex as a weapon is not uncommon for either gender and it is certainly easy to see someone forcing themselves onto another regardless of gender. I do believe more rapists are men, but I'm most certainly not going to think that female rapists are non-existent.

[eclipse]

Alrighty, I see two things:

1. The topic title and the discussion content are, uh, different. You're free to reword the title so that it matches what's being discussed.

2. While I can close the thread. . .uh, why? If you feel that the topic isn't worth discussing further, I can close it. Please confirm whether or not this is your intent, TC.

[Esau of Isaac]

sidenote: pretty sure that "union" generally refers to marriage, which is not at all what is being discussed here.

It does, but it also generally refers to relationships. He used it correctly, as a coming together of two parties.

Also, such a 'relationship' is unequal due to the power dynamic as well; it's not just an age thing (a relationship between a teacher at university and his/her students is also Not A Good Thing).

Okay, but I think we can say that the largest reason that it's interpreted as creepy is the age. A student being in a relationship with a teacher at another school who has no power over them would still be seen as wrong.

[FionordeQuester]

Also, such a 'relationship' is unequal due to the power dynamic as well; it's not just an age thing (a relationship between a teacher at university and his/her students is also Not A Good Thing).

Indeed. In fact, that was kind of what I was getting at, though whether or not I worded it right is another issue I guess. Anyways, you seem to get what I was saying.

The whole issue of "not being reported" has nothing to do with it being counted by people compile statistics j/s.

Really now? So do we know whether or not the kind of molestation I mentioned is legally counted as rape?

As in, when the U.S. Bureau says what percent of rapists are female, does it count the women who seduce minors? Or do they only count the women who would say, drug a man, tie him up in a shed somewhere, force Viagra down his throat, and do whatever they do to rape em'? That's the question I was hoping to have answered in this thread, though again, I might not have communicated that very well.

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[eclipse]

Do you count a male "seducing" a minor to be rape? I don't think it's fair if men get one set of criteria and women get another!

[FionordeQuester]

Do you count a male "seducing" a minor to be rape?

Of course I do! Why in the world would it be otherwise?

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[Rehab]

It does, but it also generally refers to relationships. He used it correctly, as a coming together of two parties.

Okay, but I think we can say that the largest reason that it's interpreted as creepy is the age. A student being in a relationship with a teacher at another school who has no power over them would still be seen as wrong.

I think to some extent in that situation, age is difficult to distinguish from power. Being a minor means the student's more likely a dependent, whereas a wage-earning teacher is (I'll hazard a guess) more likely independent. If it comes down to one's word versus another (no evidence of anything), I assume the teacher's would be roughly more likely to be listened to. This could just be a convenient way to explain away a sense of revulsion of unclear origin, but I think the way a lot of people feel squicked out by age-imbalanced relationships tends to line up with an imbalance between what the different sorts of ages are assumed to be practically capable of.

[eclipse]

Of course I do! Why in the world would it be otherwise?

Good!

If it's a matter of power dynamic, then the answer is that it's irrelevant - this is a sign of someone who's exerting dominance in unhealthy ways, and this isn't limited by gender. Try asking your father the same question I asked you, and see if he responds the same way.

[FionordeQuester]

Good!

If it's a matter of power dynamic, then the answer is that it's irrelevant - this is a sign of someone who's exerting dominance in unhealthy ways, and this isn't limited by gender. Try asking your father the same question I asked you, and see if he responds the same way.

...Honestly I'm a little confused. I know for a fact that he'd feel the exact same way, and in fact, I would think anyone who had any sort of common sense would know how horrible it is to have an adult man seduce a teenage girl...so, I'm just wondering "in what way did I word this thread to make it sound like I felt worse about female adults seducing teenage boys than I did about male adults seducing teenage girls"?

I mean, I know my people skills aren't the greatest, and I word things in ways most other people don't...but this is REALLY getting to me!

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[eclipse]

...Honestly I'm a little confused. I know for a fact that he'd feel the exact same way, and in fact, I would think anyone who had any sort of common sense would know how horrible it is to have an adult man seduce a teenage girl...so, I'm just wondering "in what way did I word this thread to make it sound like I felt worse about female adults seducing teenage boys than I did about male adults seducing teenage girls"?

I mean, I know my people skills aren't the greatest, and I word things in ways most other people don't...but this is REALLY getting to me!

Alright, I think I need a bit of background. When I hear arguments like "what about the women who do these horrible things to students?", it sounds like the person asking it has an agenda. I doubt that women abusing power is completely and utterly unknown - IIRC, some female teachers have been caught with male students, and it's made headlines. The justification behind one gender of student NOT reporting it baffles me - teenage girls can be horny, and teenage boys can be intimidated (as an example). Therefore, why bother making the distinction? People in power may abuse that power, and when they do, it sucks.

[FionordeQuester]

Alright, I think I need a bit of background. When I hear arguments like "what about the women who do these horrible things to students?", it sounds like the person asking it has an agenda. I doubt that women abusing power is completely and utterly unknown - IIRC, some female teachers have been caught with male students, and it's made headlines. The justification behind one gender of student NOT reporting it baffles me - teenage girls can be horny, and teenage boys can be intimidated (as an example). Therefore, why bother making the distinction? People in power may abuse that power, and when they do, it sucks.

Really? So you thought there was a hidden question I was asking, huh? Well then, nope, there wasn't.

I just always thought it was weird that rapists were mainly men according to the U.S. Bureau of Justice, but just sort of rolled with that...until my Dad brought up the possibility of "seduction of a minor" not making it into the statistics. I was curious about that possibility, couldn't find what I deemed to be a definitive answer by looking up the Bureau of Justice's website, so...I made the thread.

No agenda here. If I DID have an agenda, I'd be much more blunt about it, because, well, I don't exactly do "subtle" very well.

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[eclipse]

I don't think you have an agenda. . .but I can't say the same for your dad (since you're relaying the info second-hand, and a lot of nonverbal things get lost). I think a better question would be whether or not gender differences CAN be taken into account. Do you think a man who's been raped by another man would report it? What about a woman victimized by another woman? Male teacher/male student? The list goes on!

[FionordeQuester]

Hmm...well I trust my Dad a lot, and I trust that he's not so hypocritical when it comes to issues like that. And that wasn't the main thing we were talking about, it was some side tangent that came up during the conversation.

And if I have this right, what you're saying is that what I brought up isn't the ONLY thing that's not included in the statistics. That, actually, would be an interesting study, wouldn't it? Too bad there doesn't seem to be anyone here who can answer that, huh?

Edited May 11, 2014 by FionordeQuester

[euklyd]

...Honestly I'm a little confused. I know for a fact that he'd feel the exact same way, and in fact, I would think anyone who had any sort of common sense would know how horrible it is to have an adult man seduce a teenage girl...so, I'm just wondering "in what way did I word this thread to make it sound like I felt worse about female adults seducing teenage boys than I did about male adults seducing teenage girls"?

I mean, I know my people skills aren't the greatest, and I word things in ways most other people don't...but this is REALLY getting to me!

Probably the line at the end specifically mentioning female rapists as opposed to all rapists, and how the question your dad asked being specifically about teachers seducing young boys.

If it isn't...one wonders if the reported number of female rapists would shoot up a great deal. Rather scary implications, that...So what do you guys think?