I still don't get the praise of this game...

[metalsnowman3]

Its fine if you don't like the plot and the characters and the gameplay and what not, but don't bullshit me and say that all the other fire emblem games have way better characters, way better plot, and way better gameplay like those were perfect and amazing state of the art games when its really not true.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Its fine if you don't like the plot and the characters and the gameplay and what not, but don't bullshit me and say that all the other fire emblem games have way better characters, way better plot, and way better gameplay like those were perfect and amazing state of the art games when its really not true.

in other words, don't have an opinion at all?

[RJWalker]

Its fine if you don't like the plot and the characters and the gameplay and what not, but don't bullshit me and say that all the other fire emblem games have way better characters, way better plot, and way better gameplay like those were perfect and amazing state of the art games when its really not true.

I like this guy. He amuses me.

[metalsnowman3]

in other words, don't have an opinion at all?

No that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the criticism and comparisons that are always cited on awakening are not founded, you can say it is bad, but compared to the other games its just in line with fire emblem.

I like this guy. He amuses me.

Sigh well now I remember why I just stayed away for the Awakening forums for months.

Edited June 6, 2014 by metalsnowman3

[RJWalker]

No that isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that the criticism and comparisons that are always cited on awakening are not founded, you can say it is bad, but compared to the other games its just in line with fire emblem.

See, that's where opinion comes in. You beleive it is in line with the series. Others don't. They believe that criticisms are well founded and that other games did plot and characters better. Who are you to tell them they're wrong?

[Integrity]

Yeah, but plenty of other good mechanics ARE absent, like magic triangles and fog-o-war and what have you.

The magic triangles never made a lick of difference and Fog of War just sucked, though. There were good mechanics that didn't make it to FE13, and neither of those were them. :P

[Refa]

Seriously, I can see why some particularly masochistic folks like FoW (even though I thought it was lame as fuck), but I don't get why anyone cared about the magic triangle.

[RJWalker]

It adds flavour to the world. World building through game is something I love and Awakening fails at that. It fails at World Building in general but that's a separate issue.

[Integrity]

The magic weapon triangle adds flavor to the world?

[RJWalker]

In minor, but appreciable ways, yes. Like Canas' talks about Dark Magic or Knoll and Natasha's supports add flavour in different ways. That sort of thing is absent in Awakening. Now it's generic magic that you see everywhere else with no attempt to give it depth.

[Refa]

You can have different types of magic without a magic triangle.

[Integrity]

That, I mean, that isn't the magic weapon triangle. That's just dark magic existing as a separate thing, which FE13 also has (albeit class restricted rather than a separate rank). I figured he was talking about the !!ANIMA TRIANGLE!! of FE4/5/9 fame.

EDIT: or I guess the DARK ANIMA LIGHT triangle of GBAFE fame, which was also entirely irrelevant.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Integrity

[BrightBow]

Its fine if you don't like the plot and the characters and the gameplay and what not, but don't bullshit me and say that all the other fire emblem games have way better characters, way better plot, and way better gameplay like those were perfect and amazing state of the art games when its really not true.

Well, the only game I would compare to Awakening on a general level is FE7. Just like Awakening, it's a game I would describe as lacking any sort of direction. Just a collection of stuff happening until eventually the end credits roll. Of course tons of people would disagree with me about that.

But what I can grant the game is that for whatever reason it does surprisingly have far superior worldbuilding, with all the countries being well developed. And it has at least a few moments that are genuine touching. And the worldbuilding helps to give it a good sense of adventure that keeps one entertained and engaged to some extend, even if the plot is ultimately pointless.

But most importantly: The vast majority of characters generally have their own goals rather then just fighting for the Lord because they just so happen to be members of his vaguely defined military group. That makes them superior by default.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[Blademaster!]

Huh? What are you talking about? The Call of Duty series (at least until Ghosts) is both a commercial and critical success, with Modern Warfare 3, usually considered to be the one that played it the safest, has a whopping 88 on Metacritic. Not to mention that every Cod game has sold millions, so your argument fails because Metacritic said so.

tldr there's a double standard here for Awakening

There is no double standard, just you thinking that discussion around a complaint of a particular aspect somehow translates into me saying those games aren't great. I don't even see how you even came to this conclusion when I never said anything about the overall quality of those games other than people disliking a particular aspect related to them.

^Except Pokemon continues to be awesome. And yes, Second Seals don't break the game unless you grind.

Second seals do more damage to the meta game because they let you get exp like crazy and go from getting ~30 exp per victory to about ~70 exp per victory. Giving any unit a second seal in a playthrough will generally guarantee them being one of your ace units as a result, and that's not even looking at it breaking the cap in level ups you can get.

Seriously, I can see why some particularly masochistic folks like FoW (even though I thought it was lame as fuck), but I don't get why anyone cared about the magic triangle.

While the magic triangle hasn't ever really been that useful and I don't see how IS can implement it like how FE12/13 implement the much more dynamic weapon triangle due to how little variety there are in magic classes, I think most people just miss light magic.

It adds flavour to the world. World building through game is something I love and Awakening fails at that. It fails at World Building in general but that's a separate issue.

But the games that take place in Awakening never had the magic triangle before so the world is as it should be?

[arvilino]

In minor, but appreciable ways, yes. Like Canas' talks about Dark Magic or Knoll and Natasha's supports add flavour in different ways. That sort of thing is absent in Awakening. Now it's generic magic that you see everywhere else with no attempt to give it depth.

The game makes quite a big distinction when it comes to your Dark Mages like Tharja and Henry. Though tell me, if the weapon triangle was removed in FE7 how would that even impact Canas' dialogue?

The magic triangle itself is pretty insignificant, especially Fire/Thunder/Wind triangle where the might and hit differences(or in FE4 weight) between tome types render the attacking advantage pointless and the defensive advantage almost never applicable. People either don't notice it barely fulfills what its supposed to represent and/or just want it because previous games had it.

Edited June 6, 2014 by arvilino

[XeKr]

Some notes about things being thrown around:

-Children are viable without grinding, even in Lunatic(+), I don’t know why people keep saying they’re not.

-Second Seals are definitely still very strong without grinding, since you can take advantage of unpromoted exp gain for way more levels, even when seals aren't buyable. Plus, there’s no upper limit (20/20 stats are barely viable in Lunatic for children, and notsomuch for parents.) Classes like Manakete heavily rely on Second Seals to be viable.

-Ricken/Henry in Harvest Scramble specifically talk about the nature of Dark magic (how it differs), and I found it way more memorable than whatever conversations in previous FEs (opinion, etc). Tharja and Henry have clearly been affected by Dark Magic in some way. Libra in general talks a lot about priestly things, and doesn’t have to wield Light magic to do so. etcetc

-I wouldn’t consider fog of war a good mechanic in games with permadeath. Very akin to ambush spawns, which are more often maligned.

-FE4 maps had lots of dead space and just moving units (tediously). FE13 took some interesting parts of them for Paralogue Maps (i.e. P2, rivers, bridges, forests, villages, actual units to fight…)

This just from skimming the explosion of posts. >_>

Edited June 6, 2014 by XeKr

[RJWalker]

The game makes quite a big distinction when it comes to your Dark Mages like Tharja and Henry. Though tell me, if the weapon triangle was removed in FE7 how would that even impact Canas' dialogue?

No, but having it in does make it better.

Besides, the magic triangles didn't negatively affect gameplay and the weapon triangle is just as irrelevant later on anyway.

[RJWalker]

-Ricken/Henry in Harvest Scramble specifically talk about the nature of Dark magic (how it differs), and I found it way more memorable than whatever conversations in previous FEs (opinion, etc). Tharja and Henry have clearly been affected by Dark Magic in some way. Libra in general talks a lot about priestly things, and doesn’t have to wield Light magic to do so. etcetc

Ahh yes, DLC. Of course. IE good writing and character development that is not in the game and requires you to pay extra money. DLC, where they proved that they still can write well but skipped out on qaulity in the main game because whoever was in charge wanted quantity is less time.

[PKL]

The thing that I don't like is that people criticize awakening for things that are problems in all the other fire emblem games.

The plot doesn't make sense. Well neither does any of the other ones seeing as all the big bads can just easily kill your guys whenever they feel like it instead of going through all these crazy loopholes and things. FE4 story I thought was going to be much better since people talk about it so fondly but it really is hardly there.

The map designs are bad. Well FE4 maps were cool other than the fact I would have to spend like 6-10 hours playing one map since I didn't know when/where reinforcements were going to come. And for the more casual FE player like me, the maps from FE6-12 weren't all that different from 13. (FE10 imo had the most fun maps)

The characters are all stupid/tropes. Well FE4 had like barely any characterization, the fondness of it is just headcanon because there is barely any dialogue. FE6-12 all the characters are really just bland except for the main characters and they weren't that well rounded either. All the side characters were also tropes that had mini backstories but nothing groundbreaking that awakening didn't have.

Gameplay is unbalanced. Well seeing as they are all beatable with 0% growths via dondon's guides, you can argue all the games are unbalanced because you can beat the game essentially without leveling (other than like weapon/stave levels). When I was revisiting fe7 HHM, Sain was essentially invincible by like chapter 20 and I was trying to keep the levels somewhat balanced between all my units. I just don't see Awakening's balance issues that much different than the others. Playing through FE12 wasn't that hard with invincible knight avatar and Caeda and peg sisters and that was my first run, I went out of my way to make that game harder and I didn't even finish it because I got bored just stomping through the game.

ITT: FE12 is easy.

[arvilino]

No, but having it in does make it better.

Besides, the magic triangles didn't negatively affect gameplay and the weapon triangle is just as irrelevant later on anyway.

The weapon triangle is pretty good because every member of it doesn't have the distinction of having good to high defense stat, in previous games what you're saying would be somewhat true. But in SD to Awakening with the weapon rank bonuses being applied and removed through WTA you have cases where lance users can reduce the attack of Sword users by up to 4 points(which is 1/10 of the max HP) which benefits higher defense units(Cavaliers,Armours) which typically wield lances.

Magic triangle doesn't make it better if it's close to irrelevant, all they'd do is just waste time implementing it. In fact the problem with magic user versus magic users is that they can't deal much damage to each other, in awakening it would grant +1 attack to WTA and WTD would lose 3 attack, WTA side doesn't get enough of a bonus to make a difference to neutral.

Edited June 6, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

The weapon triangle is pretty good because every member of it doesn't have the distinction of having good to high defense stat, in previous games what you're saying would be somewhat true. But in SD to Awakening with the weapon rank bonuses being applied and removed through WTA you have cases where lance users can reduce the attack of Sword users by up to 4 points(which is 1/10 of the max HP) which benefits higher defense units(Cavaliers,Armours) which typically wield lances.

Magic triangle doesn't make it better if it's close to irrelevant, all they'd do is just waste time implementing it.

I was talking about the dialogue when I said it made it better.

[BrightBow]

Even I think that Dark Magic was implemented well this time around. Dark Mages are forfeiting diversity so they can specialize in spells that make people fall down. Giving them superiors defense, Nosferatu and even Vengance together was begging for trouble but fundamentally it's actually a solid and worthwhile concept.

Edited June 6, 2014 by BrightBow

[arvilino]

I was talking about the dialogue when I said it made it better.

I still don't see it, it's not like Light, Anima and Dark magic in general are inherently in conflict(outside of like Imhullu and Starlight or Naga and Lopto) in any of the dialogue or story.

[Florete]

It's a thing that makes Blazing Sword a pain in the ass. Even if everyone and their mother agrees that it's bad, the two cannot be separated from each other. Whatever good the game has to offer, is tempered by the fact that you have to wade through the Shit Moat to get there.

But they can be separated from each other. Lyn mode is only required until the game has been beaten once. One never has to see it twice.

I'll agree tutorials can be better and have been better (though it really depends on the player), but I'm sure you realize why Lyn mode makes more sense in FE7 than in any other FE a similar mode could have been made in.

in other words, don't have an opinion at all?

You say this often, and it's quite useless. Yes, opinions, blah blah blah. We all have them, they all stink, etc. The problem is that people can't have discussion if everyone is focused on "Well, opinions," so you have to put that to the side so that we might actually be able to talk about stuff.

[RJWalker]

You say this often, and it's quite useless. Yes, opinions, blah blah blah. We all have them, they all stink, etc. The problem is that people can't have discussion if everyone is focused on "Well, opinions," so you have to put that to the side so that we might actually be able to talk about stuff.

The person he responded to basically said only his opinion is correct and that everyone who thinks the other games are better is factually wrong. HF's response was the right type of response.