I still don't get the praise of this game...

[Czar_Yoshi]

The battle forecast does reflect all stat changes including Rally, +Hit/Avo skills, Aggressor, Dragonskin, effective weaponry, support boosts (including DS/DG%) and whatnot. The only things it doesn't reflect are proc skills, which mainly makes a difference with PavGis+ on enemies and Vengeance on the player, and the amount of damage Dual Strikes will do.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Czar_Yoshi

[Florete]

As was pointed out, you need to run it again for a gaiden.

Oh dern, a completely optional map that has even more ridiculous requirements than playing Lyn mode.

This is not a good point and I think you know it. (I say "I think" because I know that if I don't you'll berate me for assuming)

Which is why I just said it was "dumb".

You compared it to the game giving you anthrax. I'd probably use a stronger word than "dumb".

If you can use extremes, why can't I respond to your extremes with extremes?

Still a net negative.

Yes, and about as painful as getting your annual flu shot.

Looking forward to still hearing about this in 2017.

At least you seem to be acknowledging it, if in a roundabout way.

It's weird that you consider it an advantage to have duplicative functionality for no particularly good reason. Awakening's system is perfectly simple: you go to a character, pick a slot, put an item there (or trade one out). The location doesn't matter, because everything is available, so you don't have to waste any time searching for a particular item. Trading, putting stuff in the convoy, refilling stocks, it all happens in the same place. FFS, you can even equip weapons and re-arrange items here; yet another thing that Blazing Sword can't elegantly handle.

No particular reason? The reason is in what you want to do. If you want to scan through every item you own, you use the master list. If you only want to take items for a character that no one else is holding, you use the main convoy list. If you want to transfer specific items from one unit to another, you use trade. All of these options become particularly useful later on in the games when your convoy gets rather extensive, which can be problematic in Awakening since you often need to scroll through dozens of items to find what you're looking for.

Dunno how you can think fewer options is better than more in this case, especially considering Awakening's one option literally is one of the ones the previous games had.

This is a lot of text to downplay what is a really useful addition to the series. Awakening even goes further with an in-between option: you can speed up Enemy Phase, too, or skip certain kinds of actions. You have all sorts of settings and toggles to put the game's pace exactly where you want it to be, as opposed to the "one burlap sack fits all" option.

It is very useful and I rather love it. Thing is, I don't think it's quite as useful for everyone. In particular, new players, the ones who would supposedly be the most turned off by previous titles not having the feature, likely wouldn't make too much use of it unless they play the game a lot because they're more likely to want to be aware of what specifically is going on. Veterans, on the other hand, can go back to the older games with relative ease because they know the games already.

Except you, I guess.

"Unplayable" is a word other people used; not me. What I said was this:

"The old titles are no great shakes; they are thin, limiting, tedious, and have been left behind by modern TBS games. The best that you can say, is that they were good for their time. The rest is mostly nostalgia, if we're being honest."

That's it. You'd think that I slapped everyone across the face with a chainmail gauntlet.

Hmm, weren't you the one saying playing the older games is like getting hit in the face with a rake, that FE7 gives you PTSD, that the older games have crap interfaces, among other things?

If that isn't implying that you think they're unplayable, then I'm at a loss for words.

"...or something to that effect." Yeah, I know you didn't use the word "unplayable." But the language you did use says as much.

Again, if you're going to use such extremes as "gives me PTSD," I'm just going to take your words to the logical conclusion. Someone who literally gets PTSD from a certain stimuli is probably going to consider it out of bounds for them.

[Interceptor]

This is not a good point and I think you know it.

All I said was that it wasn't entirely accurate to state that Lyn mode was one-and-done. Which is true.

If you can use extremes, why can't I respond to your extremes with extremes?

Not all extremes are created equally; I was raising a point about "common" not meaning "OK", you misinterpreted it as being about criminality. You can do whatever you want, I was just clarifying my position.

No particular reason? The reason is in what you want to do. If you want to scan through every item you own, you use the master list. If you only want to take items for a character that no one else is holding, you use the main convoy list. If you want to transfer specific items from one unit to another, you use trade. All of these options become particularly useful later on in the games when your convoy gets rather extensive, which can be problematic in Awakening since you often need to scroll through dozens of items to find what you're looking for.

Dunno how you can think fewer options is better than more in this case, especially considering Awakening's one option literally is one of the ones the previous games had.

This is actually a somewhat important point, as opposed to the other baloney, so let's put some text here and be a little more serious for a moment. Blazing Sword's inventory management is bad design, full stop. Here's a list of some of its sins:

• It "solves" problems that it created for itself in the first place. Why have a separate convoy list at all? Oh right: because you can't stack things in the UI or combine items, and list perusal is a huge chore.
• You can't re-arrange item order (an important task) without mass-deposits or trading (which is tedious/unintuitive).
• Management functionality is split, but with holes in the overlap, so the end result is nothing does exactly what you want. List can withdraw but not deposit items, trading can't access the convoy, transfer doesn't touch other characters.
• You can't trade an empty space as the start of a transaction. You have to either do the trade in reverse, or figure out -- without help from the UI -- that you can jump across panels.

And now Awakening's advantages:

• Doesn't do any of that bullshit listed above. Item management is unified, items can be equipped/arranged, duplicates are stacked in the UI, items are auto-combined, blank trades are A-OK.
• Optimization button, for both single units and entire army.
• Mass deposit button for the entire army.
• Restock button for both single units and entire army.
• When you select an individual item slot, it asks you whether you want to store it, trade it, refill it, or equip/reorder it. In the same place! What a country!

It's pretty obvious that a UX designer looked at the user stories, noticed that basically everything you ever want to do on the screen involves manipulating a unit's inventory slot, and simply put everything right there. It's excellent design. Awakening's management system is playing the game while Blazing Sword is still looking for its pants.

It is very useful and I rather love it. Thing is, I don't think it's quite as useful for everyone. In particular, new players, the ones who would supposedly be the most turned off by previous titles not having the feature, likely wouldn't make too much use of it unless they play the game a lot because they're more likely to want to be aware of what specifically is going on. Veterans, on the other hand, can go back to the older games with relative ease because they know the games already.

Except you, I guess.

Yes, high on my list of fun things to do is watch while Hector mows down waves and waves of trash enemies that have zero chance of doing anything substantial. Or waste a few minutes of my life on every attempt of Battle before Dawn, a captive audience of one, waiting to find out whether the result of a bunch of shit that I have no control over means that Jaffar dies again.

Blazing Sword disrespects both newbies and veterans in equal measure. For the noobs, it presents them a stupid inventory management and control system. For the veterans, who have implanted workarounds into muscle memory, you are rewarded by having to watch a bunch of unskippable nonsense. But you can turn off long animations! SO COOL.

"...or something to that effect." Yeah, I know you didn't use the word "unplayable." But the language you did use says as much.

"Yeah, I know you didn't actually say what I am accusing you of, but it's inconvenient to my argument if you aren't the bogeyman that I want you to be, so I'll just stick some words in your mouth and call it a good day's work."

See how annoying that is?

Again, if you're going to use such extremes as "gives me PTSD," I'm just going to take your words to the logical conclusion. Someone who literally gets PTSD from a certain stimuli is probably going to consider it out of bounds for them.

Even if you took me at the literal meaning of my words (which you don't, clearly), that still doesn't complete the circuit, since PTSD is merely an individual mental disorder. That's the sort of logical leap you'd only make if you assumed that someone's personal experience was immaculately transferrable to every person who ever played the game.

I don't possess that kind of power, even though I am pretty amazing.

[arvilino]

I remember another thing this game improves, the support system and support library. The game makes all the C-A rank supports available in a single playthrough with only S-rank being limited to one per playthrough(although making S-rank available for every character and then soft resetting is possible), it's also done in a way that makes quite a bit of sense without slowing unlocking support conversations to a crawl.

An issue that existed in the previous ones with the limit of 5 was that each character could only get one A-rank. FE6,FE7 and FE8 dealing with an insane turn count attached to characters standing next to each other, FE9(and FE12) requiring you to field characters in a number of chapters. The end result was one full conversation per pair per playthrough, rendering the 2 remaining points useless for completion(as you'd need to do C and B again for the same pair in a different playthrough). FE12 allowed more but the chapter requirement limits how many you can get within a single playthrough.

An interesting effect may be the popularity and focus(even negative) of a wide variety the Awakening characters/supports receive compared to ones in the past is much above what you'd even expect from the game selling the most. Previous entries essentially limited the vast majority of supports to be unlocked by only the most avid of completionists, this essentially skewed the supports most players unlocked to the main and popular character/classes combinations(Mia and Rhys's support would probably be a common one non-completionists read) so most know very little about the characters.

I've played FE7 through 6 or 7 times across 10 years and I have 15 support conversations unlocked, you could unlock and read more on a new file in Awakening in the course of a couple hours. Due to the bonuses provided it's even encouraged through normal gameplay in more modern titles(FE9,FE10, FE12 and most of all FE13) whereas what is needed to unlock supports in the GBA titles I wouldn't describe as normal game play outside some very easy supports(Eliwood and Hector for example).

Edited June 7, 2014 by arvilino

[Nonevah]

Hello.

Play Lunatic+ no grind please.

...

People have done Lunatic+ no-grind?

With how many characters, out of curiosity?

[shadowofchaos]

...

People have done Lunatic+ no-grind?

With how many characters, out of curiosity?

I personally haven't been much into finishing mine. I still have a save file on my hard drive sitting there.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=40300

I can safely say that you're not going to bruteforce it.

Edited June 7, 2014 by shadowofchaos

[Constable Reggie]

An issue that existed in the previous ones with the limit of 5 was that each character could only get one A-rank. FE6,FE7 and FE8 dealing with an insane turn count attached to characters standing next to each other, FE9(and FE12) requiring you to field characters in a number of chapters. The end result was one full conversation per pair per playthrough, rendering the 2 remaining points useless for completion(as you'd need to do C and B again for the same pair in a different playthrough). FE12 allowed more but the chapter requirement limits how many you can get within a single playthrough.

This allowed for much stronger support conversations in 7/8 though. Getting an A rank support with a lot of character development, then getting another one right afterwards with the same character would drastically cheapen the gravitas of both of them. Awakening sacrifices story elements for gameplay in this respect, as there's no good way to get significant character development that means something when you're able to just get all of them simultaneously. The S supports don't help much either; they're just a tool used to unlock the children characters and clearly didn't have much thought put into them.

[Jotari]

This allowed for much stronger support conversations in 7/8 though. Getting an A rank support with a lot of character development, then getting another one right afterwards with the same character would drastically cheapen the gravitas of both of them. Awakening sacrifices story elements for gameplay in this respect, as there's no good way to get significant character development that means something when you're able to just get all of them simultaneously. The S supports don't help much either; they're just a tool used to unlock the children characters and clearly didn't have much thought put into them.

I think that;s more a fault of Awakening having so many supports, lessening the overall quality, than an inherent flaw in the C B A S system. The gameboy games/Path of Radiance could easily retain their C B A supports and then add S supports on top of them showing a more apparent result of paired endings.

[arvilino]

This allowed for much stronger support conversations in 7/8 though. Getting an A rank support with a lot of character development, then getting another one right afterwards with the same character would drastically cheapen the gravitas of both of them. Awakening sacrifices story elements for gameplay in this respect, as there's no good way to get significant character development that means something when you're able to just get all of them simultaneously. The S supports don't help much either; they're just a tool used to unlock the children characters and clearly didn't have much thought put into them.

In all Fire Emblem games the supports may as well be taken as all C ranks, B ranks and A ranks for a specific character occur simultaneously respectively in terms of character development regardless of the order you unlock them(Otherwise they seemingly stop half way with the B-ranks), I don't see why Awakening should be any different. I looked up the rates and a couple of the support conversations for FE7 online just a bit ago when writing my last post, could you honestly tell me that Raven and Bartre's support conversation is worth 120 turns of investment? It's easily worse than any Awakening support conversation yet it's requires half a playthrough worth of turns to unlock.

FE7 certainly doesn't have supports that compel a player to spend so long to unlock them. Also from my skimming so many of them are way too coincidental, like Eliwood somehow recruited an army who many have very close links and chance(multiple for some characters) encounters with with previous acquaintances and long lost relatives/friends, it kind of reminds me of TearRing Saga.

Edited June 8, 2014 by arvilino

[The Geek]

One thing that bugged me about Awakening was that it really lacked in the non-romantic support department. I think most are in agreement that 9 times out of 10 the non-romantic supports were far superior to their romantic counterparts. On top of this, there were only three possible pairs of siblings (Chrom and Lissa, Lucina and her sibling, and F!Morgan and her sibling) which most games usually had more of.

I dunno, that's just something that kinda bugged me.

[Constable Reggie]

In all Fire Emblem games the supports may as well be taken as all C ranks, B ranks and A ranks for a specific character occur simultaneously respectively in terms of character development regardless of the order you unlock them(Otherwise they seemingly stop half way with the B-ranks), I don't see why Awakening should be any different. I looked up the rates and a couple of the support conversations for FE7 online just a bit ago when writing my last post, could you honestly tell me that Raven and Bartre's support conversation is worth 120 turns of investment? It's easily worse than any Awakening support conversation yet it's requires half a playthrough worth of turns to unlock.

FE7 certainly doesn't have supports that compel a player to spend so long to unlock them. Also from my skimming so many of them are way too coincidental, like Eliwood somehow recruited an army who many have very close links and chance(multiple for some characters) encounters with with previous acquaintances and long lost relatives/friends, it kind of reminds me of TearRing Saga.

I respectfully disagree, I find Fe7's supports to be well worth the effort. Fe7's cast are far more three dimensional than Awakening's anime stereotypes. And the coincidental thing is a commonly used trope that doesn't really even hurt 7's case.

And while some supports might have been better if the turn count was lower, your counterargument doesn't really affect the point of my post. Saying that all the supports should be considered simultaneously is ridiculous. It's through those multiple playthroughs that you learn more of the character bit by bit; it lends credence to the strength of the way 7/8's characters work. In Awakening, you could unlock A support after A support, and they mean nothing. While most of the blame is to be put on the terrible writing/characters of the game, I believe the support structure put more unnecessary burdens on them than there should be.

[-Cynthia-]

The Awakening support system is definitely not good for romances, they have to have 3 not romantic or ambiguous at best supports before a final love declaration. It's not very believable from a writing standpoint.

On the other hand, the requirements for GBA supports are pretty ridiculous to the point where most of the supports go unseen on runs not purposely trying to see them.

It's not a step up from PoR regardless, so hard to see it as a step ahead.

Edited June 8, 2014 by -Cynthia-

[Czar_Yoshi]

...

People have done Lunatic+ no-grind?

With how many characters, out of curiosity?

With Spotpass shops and some Renown but no Logbook, DLC or Skirmishes check Interceptor's sig, he made a full guide on it. A while back in the Lunatic Club thread someone did it without the Spotpass shops as well, though I don't remember if he used Renown. I've done it several times but haven't done a formal blow-by-blow write-up yet.

I respectfully disagree, I find Fe7's supports to be well worth the effort. Fe7's cast are far more three dimensional than Awakening's anime stereotypes. And the coincidental thing is a commonly used trope that doesn't really even hurt 7's case.

Bartre: Don’t worry about it! It’s no bother for me! In exchange, you can just lend me one of those books!

Canas: A-A book?

Bartre: Yeah. Maybe... a skinny one.

Canas: ...... Are you...going to...eat it?

Better than all of Awakening's supports combined, right there. Sure, there are a handful of bad ones, but there are also some really great ones in the mix that are worth rooting around for (Lyn x Wallace, all of Renault's supports, Vaida x Dorcas, Canas x Bartre, Florina x Ninian and so on.

In the case of some supports (especially Lyn x Wallace), they not only have everything to do with the actual plot of the game (only Awakening's parent/child supports mentioned it at all and even then it's about the future, it's really rare even in the Scramble DLC), but they're filled with rich backstory/lore nuggets that you won't get from just playing the chapters.

[arvilino]

I respectfully disagree, I find Fe7's supports to be well worth the effort. Fe7's cast are far more three dimensional than Awakening's anime stereotypes. And the coincidental thing is a commonly used trope that doesn't really even hurt 7's case.

No they aren't and yes it does. That on Eliwood's quest to find his father, Serra runs into Erk who just so happens to be hired to guard Priscilla who's long lost brother just happens to be captured at Caelin. Rebbeca's childhood friend just happens to be a part of the lyndis legion, her long lost brother just happens to be part of the pirate crew needed to get to dread island and afterwards meeting his friend met during a 5 years he had amnesia appears while Eliwood and co. are supposed to be sneaking around Bern.

Coincidences are fine when they make a bit of sense(for example Matthis is being forced to fight and Marth has to come into conflict with the Macedonian army so in FE1 it makes sense that Lena meets up with him) but the series of coincidental meetings in FE7 during which is supposed to be a low-key campaign borders on the unbelievable even in a fantasy game.

Awakenings supports could have been actually bad and way worse than they actually are and it'd still be better than yet another task in FE7 limited to once per playthrough, of which each playthrough was already covered in this topic takes longer than should be necessary, now extended by hundreds of turns for some supports that are supposedly good.

Edited June 8, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

While I'm not fond of limited supports, I'd take them over Awakening's supports which contradict each other or just come across as the character having learn nothing and not having grown at all like is the case with many Awakening characters like Yarne, Panne, etc.

[Constable Reggie]

No they aren't and yes it does. That on Eliwood's quest to find his father, Serra runs into Erk who just so happens to be hired to guard Priscilla who's long lost brother just happens to be captured at Caelin. Rebbeca's childhood friend just happens to be a part of the lyndis legion, her long lost brother just happens to be part of the pirate crew needed to get to dread island and afterwards meeting his friend met during a 5 years he had amnesia appears while Eliwood and co. are supposed to be sneaking around Bern.

Coincidences are fine when they make a bit of sense(for example Matthis is being forced to fight and Marth has to come into conflict with the Macedonian army so in FE1 it makes sense that Lena meets up with him) but the series of coincidental meetings in FE7 during which is supposed to be a low-key campaign borders on the unbelievable even in a fantasy game.

Awakenings supports could have been actually bad and way worse than they actually are and it'd still be better than yet another task in FE7 limited to once per playthrough, of which each playthrough was already covered in this topic takes longer than should be necessary, now extended by hundreds of turns for some supports that are supposedly good.

Saying "no they aren't" is not a sufficient counterargument in the slightest.

And while Fe7's coincidences are well integrated into their character development, it's important to note said characters are also recruited MUCH more naturally. Awakening literally pulls out of its ass half hearted ways to recruiting characters. Panne just shows up and says "oh emmeryn helped me before, I"m here to help", Henry appears out of nowhere and joins for no real goddamn reason (you have to dig through his supports to find out why, which is ridiculous), and Basilio/Flavia's recruitments are literally asspulls. Contrast that with the likes of Hawkeye, who has an ultimate purpose for appearing/helping and Athos, who is built up to be your clutch ally. Even the ones that appear seemingly out of nowhere (Fiora, Erk, Harken) have their own goals distant from your party's.

Awakening takes the easy way out and has every recruitable character center around your party's. You have to rescue someone, someone doesn't like their side and defects, or they just appear out of the air and help are the only 3 recruitment methods in Awakening (only exception is libra). Fe7 gives most of the characters their own goals and intentions, and uses coincidences to further their development. Awakening really doesn't try and just shoves them in there for waifu arguments.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Constable Reggie

[Jotari]

While I'm not fond of limited supports, I'd take them over Awakening's supports which contradict each other or just come across as the character having learn nothing and not having grown at all like is the case with many Awakening characters like Yarne, Panne, etc.

If you could unlock every FE7 support in a single playthrough would there be any contradictions in character?

[RJWalker]

If you could unlock every FE7 support in a single playthrough would there be any contradictions in character?

Only the romance related supports (A Supports only due to how the system works) and even then, there's some room to allowed for interpretation.

[arvilino]

Saying "no they aren't" is not a sufficient counterargument in the slightest.

And while Fe7's coincidences are well integrated into their character development, it's important to note said characters are also recruited MUCH more naturally. Awakening literally pulls out of its ass half hearted ways to recruiting characters. Panne just shows up and says "oh emmeryn helped me before, I"m here to help", Henry appears out of nowhere and joins for no real goddamn reason (you have to dig through his supports to find out why, which is ridiculous), and Basilio/Flavia's recruitments are literally asspulls. Contrast that with the likes of Hawkeye, who has an ultimate purpose for appearing/helping and Athos, who is built up to be your clutch ally. Even the ones that appear seemingly out of nowhere (Fiora, Erk, Harken) have their own goals distant from your party's.

Awakening takes the easy way out and has every recruitable character center around your party's. You have to rescue someone, someone doesn't like their side and defects, or they just appear out of the air and help are the only 3 recruitment methods in Awakening (only exception is libra). Fe7 gives most of the characters their own goals and intentions, and uses coincidences to further their development. Awakening really doesn't try and just shoves them in there for waifu arguments.

Fiora shows up out of nowhere and it's not even really explained why she was hired to investigate dread island in-game...outside of the supports.

Awakening's isn't the easy way out, it's the one that actually makes sense. All the characters are almost always seeking out your party in one way or another or defecting it makes sense that their paths actually cross. Blazing Sword literally relies on these coincidences(too many) to explain why most of these characters would even remotely cross paths.

Edited June 8, 2014 by arvilino

[RJWalker]

Fiora shows up out of nowhere and it's not even really explained why she was hired to investigate dread island in-game...outside of the supports.

Awakening's isn't the easy way out, it's the one that actually makes sense. All the characters are almost always seeking out your party in one way or another or defecting it makes sense that their paths actually cross. Blazing Sword literally relies on these coincidences.

You answered your own question, Of course, not everything will be laid out the moment she appears. That's stupid and drags down the pacing. But enough is explained to make you interested. Way different situation from Henry who doesn't really say anything useful on why he's defecting until you get to his supports.

And Awakening is taking the easy way out. Almost none of the characters have their separate motivations. Their recruitments 'making sense' is unrelated to Awakening taking the easy way out.

All the characters are almost always seeking out your party in one way or another

See this? This why Reggie said Awakening takes the easy way out. The characters have no goals of their own that are not immediately related to the Shepards and this makes the characters feel shallow.

[Topazd]

bop

Edited February 8, 2019 by Topazd

[arvilino]

You answered your own question, Of course, not everything will be laid out the moment she appears. That's stupid and drags down the pacing. But enough is explained to make you interested. Way different situation from Henry who doesn't really say anything useful on why he's defecting until you get to his supports.

Well it's never laid out because most players will never even find out thanks to the FE7 support system. If she was just looking for Florina it would have made sense without a single support conversation and a sob story about her whole division of Pegasus Knights you never see dying to justify you only recruiting one Pegasus knight.

FE13 did a similar thing when Cordelia is introduced but in her case she was requested to fly ahead to warn the Phila, but as she hadn't been introduced so any pegasus knight could been introduced. FE7 has the case that the sole survivor is by coincidence Fiora, by chance Florina's sister just so happened to not die.

Edited June 8, 2014 by arvilino

[Refa]

You're just nitpicking, I doubt anyone's enjoyment of FE7 was actually hampered by Fiora being the sole survivor, or really any of the other coincidences you mentioned before.

EDIT Or that it hampered the narrative in any significant fashion.

Edited June 8, 2014 by Refa

[eclipse]

There was That One Guy who bitched about FE7 so much that the topic got shut down, but that is for another day. . .

I didn't mind Cordelia popping in like that, and the only objection I had to Fiora was her urge to fly straight into archers. I didn't feel that either detracted from the recruitment/overall story.

[Jotari]

Only the romance related supports (A Supports only due to how the system works) and even then, there's some room to allowed for interpretation.

So if the final conclusions of romantic supports were moved to S supports, like in Awakening, and you could get multiple C - A supports then there wouldn't be any contradictions and the system would work fine.