Reclass Mafia! Postgames are too much effort

[charlie_]

That isn't self-meta.

I do agree about her defense being weak as a whole though. I hate LYLO.

[Green Poet]

I see that kirsche is claiming doc. Scratch #2, then.

##Vote: kirsche

Looking at D3, you were the one who initiated a Beli turbo, probably to save your buddy FFM, and had even tried to turbo me before Randa and SB voiced differing opinions.

Comparatively, I placed the first vote on Kinumi and maintained that she was scum throughout all of D2.

I've gotten scum lynched. kirsche has gotten a townie lynched, and looking at the desperation with which he shifts everyone's votes in D3. . . is this a difficult decision to make?

We have four claimed male VTs, but Rein/Juliette was also likely a VT, considering as we saw they reclassed. I think it's likely that FFM's VT claim is fake and that we're looking at a kirsche/FFM/??? scumteam here.

[FrostyFireMage]

I think it would have been advantageous for scum to sacrifice a Goon on Day 2 in order to give townie points to the scum who initiated the wagon especially since they didn't lose anybody Day 1.

GP seems to be putting too much stock into her first vote on Kinumi to prove her towniness which kinda makes me feel that my suspicion is correct.

[Randa]

I'm not gonna rule out the possibility that GP and Kirsche are both scum, but I will point out that despite stating that scum!GP wouldn't do that to Kinumi, it is exactly what Prims did in conspiracy and used it to coast to the win.

So more number time then I'm gonna an check GP and Kirsche throughout the game.

So we have 3 scum left. I think we can all agree SB and Eli are rolecleared at this point. So that leaves us with 3 scum in five people. Ace, FFM, GP, Kirsche, and myself. I think we need to stop solely focusing on the doc claim. And look at the VTs as well.

Note: I know I'm town so the way I see it we have 3 scum in 4 a group of 4 people, but that is only obvious to me.

[Zkirsche]

GP if I was scum the last thing I'd try to do is try to bail out a sinking ship with such little time, even more so if that ship was my buddy.

The truly suspicious thing is you don't even think that's scummy at all, else you wouldn't have supposedly docced me last night. You chose to lie about doccing me because the above stands and you knew I looked the towniest going into today. Sadly there's not much else for you to fabricate but the obviously bad turbolynch, and yes, it was stupid. But it was driven by the desire to stop a mislynch and that desire was real.

As for the point about Kinumi, being the first vote on someone doesn't mean you got scum lynched. If anything, I was the one that got the ball rolling that led to her lynch by choosing to wagon her. What do you have to say about my points against your case and how it can be seen as an attempt at distancing gone wrong?

[Green Poet]

And naturally FFM is supporting kirsche.

I think it would have been advantageous for scum to sacrifice a Goon on Day 2 in order to give townie points to the scum who initiated the wagon especially since they didn't lose anybody Day 1.

What you're thinking of is essentially bussing. But in the context of D2, with little to no suspicion on Kinumi and no votes on her beforehand, scum!me has no reason to introduce a good case on her that will probably her lynched. I have furthermore no reason to commit to this case after I see it can potentially go too far and actually get her lynched.

By virtue of common setup numbers it's not worth sacrificing a mafia member for pretty much anything.

GP seems to be putting too much stock into her first vote on Kinumi to prove her towniness which kinda makes me feel that my suspicion is correct.

Empty words.

"Putting too much stock" into something is a criticism that's vague and meaningless in the context of this game. You could find subjective things to voice qualms over with anything; what does "putting too much stock" into something entail, and why is it scummy? Is it over-defensiveness? Is it something that's not warranted in LYLO?

You're assembling words in the hopes that they look like a case.

[Randa]

Okay does anybody here, aside from Kirsche, actually think FFM is town. And if the answer is no can we just lynch him. It at least gives us a flip and complete associative reads to work with.

Good idea? Bad idea?

[charlie_]

I'm obviously not against lynching FFM but like hell am I gonna end today without a doc lynch (and considering the points kirsche is making, I'm now leaning towards GP.)

[Randa]

*facepalm

SB do you mean a lynch on a claimed doc. Otherwise that would mean we lose. The real doc is probably town. And do you mean leaning toward thinking GP is scum, or siding with GP.

[charlie_]

Doctor, claimed doctor, same thing.

[CT075]

if you wanna lynch a doc lynch me imo

[Randa]

if you wanna lynch a doc lynch me imo

##Vote: Cam

Sheep me on this guys.

[Green Poet]

Okay does anybody here, aside from Kirsche, actually think FFM is town. And if the answer is no can we just lynch him. It at least gives us a flip and complete associative reads to work with.

Good idea? Bad idea?

Probably not as good an idea as lynching either kirsche or myself. We know that scum definitely exists between one of us two, but FFM being buddies with kirsche isn't as certain as that fact.

To those thinking that kirsche and I are both scum of different factions, I would advise at least lynching kirsche today, and considering myself or FFM tomorrow - an SK being able to reclass as doc is ridiculous, so from a setup standpoint I'd be less likely to be SK.

The truly suspicious thing is you don't even think that's scummy at all, else you wouldn't have supposedly docced me last night. You chose to lie about doccing me because the above stands and you knew I looked the towniest going into today.

Bold is correct.

You'll recall I commented on how townie you were looking somewhere in the middle of D1. You were my biggest townread going into N3, since Elie had introduced a possibility with Kinumi-SB interactions that made me slightly less certain about the latter; protecting you was the optimal move.

Obviously my ability to perceive genuine towniness is flawed. I'm not an investigative, so that I thought you were town doesn't preclude the possibility that you are scum. Mentioning this doesn't help your case; you're simply stating the obvious.

As for the point about Kinumi, being the first vote on someone doesn't mean you got scum lynched. If anything, I was the one that got the ball rolling that led to her lynch by choosing to wagon her. What do you have to say about my points against your case and how it can be seen as an attempt at distancing gone wrong?

Arguably so, but I'm not going to debate semantics. The fact remains that I placed the first vote on Kinumi and cased her initially, and the other votes, however influential, came afterwards and their cases shared elements with mine.

As for failed wagoning - all I can say is that it's simply not the case?

I can see a situation in which scum!me pushed Kinumi too hard and made her a wagon, but in what world would scum allow it to continue? Look at you and FFM; you got yourself out of a situation where you had to bus FFM and you got Beli mislynched instead. You managed to save a buddy easily; scum!me would've at least tried the same to Kinumi, even if I weren't as successful.

Look at the situation now. People don't consider the "towncred" that I've built by getting Kinumi lynched to be sufficient to clear me. If I were scum, why would I bargain that Kinumi's life would be enough to save me in the very situation I am now?

That people still think I am scum now proves that even scum!me had no incentive to bus Kinumi. The only reason I could have had to lynch Kinumi was that I truly thought she was scum.

If you can come up with anything more, I'll oblige.

[Green Poet]

[spoiler=self meta. take this with a grain of salt.]

I'm not gonna rule out the possibility that GP and Kirsche are both scum, but I will point out that despite stating that scum!GP wouldn't do that to Kinumi, it is exactly what Prims did in conspiracy and used it to coast to the win.

I didn't play in or follow Conspiracy, unfortunately. I did see Prims bus FFM in FFTA, though, but the former was still killed and ended up losing that game. I don't think I would take a chance to bus anyone or get bussed with this precedent, and in the one game I've rolled scum, I hadn't known what bussing was.

tl;dr - I have no experience nor comfort with bussing as scum. But this is explicitly self meta and I do not aim to disguise it as anything else, so this is up to others to believe and consider.

[Randa]

Okay I'm gonna just let you and Kirsche duke it out at this point cause I'm not sure who is scum right now, but I would still like clarification from SB on his thoughts about you. Also I would like to hear Eli, and Ace's opinions on this matter.

[Zkirsche]

Obviously my ability to perceive genuine towniness is flawed. I'm not an investigative, so that I thought you were town doesn't preclude the possibility that you are scum. Mentioning this doesn't help your case; you're simply stating the obvious.

This is avoiding the point I was actually making, which was that you didn't really think I was scummy for trying to turbolynch you or Beli, because if you thought that was a scum motivated move then you wouldn't have protected me over someone like SB who you've also been townreading all game and would also make a smart doc target. You brought that point up out of necessity, not because you believe me to be scum because of it.

I can see a situation in which scum!me pushed Kinumi too hard and made her a wagon, but in what world would scum allow it to continue?

A world where you wouldn't have to 180 on a read that would still likely end up getting lynched and thus make you look bad. I think you're a cautious player, even more so as scum, and a cautious mafioso has no reason to try and get her scumbuddy to safety if it means upsetting the flow and putting herself on the chopping block when they could instead earn credit by being the first one to vote them.

I find it cute how first, according to GP, scum!me tried desperately to save my scum buddy FFM, and now scum!me managed to save him easily. She portrays my actions as however they need to be interpreted to support her theories rather than what they actually were.

If I were scum, why would I bargain that Kinumi's life would be enough to save me in the very situation I am now?

Because that's what you're clinging desperately to to prove your innocence. You've believed and argued that your interactions with Kinumi have been townie. Do you think that conclusion would change with alignment? My point is that you knew that you could use your situation with Kinumi as a defence if the need arose and so there was a benefit in lynching your scumbuddy. Proof supporting this theory is evidenced by you actually using and maintaining your Kinumi interactions as a defence, and quite repetitively at that. Just because someone fails to defend themselves with something doesn't mean they couldn't think that they could defend themselves with something.

If there is no benefit for you to leave Kinumi to her lynch then explain the benefit in scum!me leaving Kinumi to it. Especially as how scum!me apparently finds it ok to hard defend my buddies when they're on the chopping block.

If you can come up with anything more, I'll oblige.

I've come up with a lot more already actually. I've explained how your original Kinumi case was actually very weak, as most distancing cases are. I've explained how your reads are very inconsistent from one day to the next and how you rarely tried to make an effort to stand out.

[Ace Tactician]

Already I'm beginning to wonder about Green Poet and kirsche.

[Ace Tactician]

At this point, I'm inclined to believe that FFM and Green Poet are scum. FFM was close to being lynched D1 and kirsche managed to quickly turbo mislynch Beli instead, that's been bugging me. For most of the game, kirsche has read town for me. The mislynch could have been a mistake, what I don't like is how Green Poet has been bussing (whatever that means). Randa brings up a valid point that there can't be three remaining Male VT's. One has to be scum, FFM has been reading like he is too lazy to bring up cases and has been flying low under the radar.

##Vote Frosty Fire

[charlie_]

ace no unvote now

[Ace Tactician]

Sigh...

##Unvote

[Elieson]

I encourage you to contribute your thoughts regardless of how sure you are of them.

If you're town, you should be uninformed.

I'm not actively watching the thread, so the "reasoning" is that I voted you in RVS and haven't checked the game since.

I think that the explanation for your vote switch makes sense, though I'm curious as to why you unvoted afterwards. If SB's name isn't the scummiest thing you've observed anymore, what's your leading scumread?

Is there something scummy about that? Does he seem overly defensive by referencing self-meta? As it stands, I see nothing inherently wrong about Poly so far.

Starting here, GP's had several cases become more than easily dismissed. Her Self-meta case? Cut down by one post from Darros. Indepth Belisarius case? Cut down by the general public. Also, GP mentions that she started the Kinumi bandwagon...but IDK, it's not like her case on Kinumi was the most fabulous of cases. Everything about her play feels good, but calling herself on that Kinumi thing just feels...forced. It doesn't sit well with me. #metareads but usually GP is pretty stern on her thoughts, even if they're questionable in logic. To see GP so cooperative and her arguments easily dismissed doesn't feel right. The content of her posts is good, but the motivation behind them feels forced and/or scummy in nature, like she's trying to look good, rather than just trying to post.

[Blitz]

like hell am I gonna end today without a doc lynch

yay!doclynch

[charlie_]

this game is so inactive i forgot it existed

rereading now

[charlie_]

kirsche and GP: who are the other two scum out of Randa/FFM/Ace and why?

[Green Poet]

This is avoiding the point I was actually making, which was that you didn't really think I was scummy for trying to turbolynch you or Beli, because if you thought that was a scum motivated move then you wouldn't have protected me over someone like SB who you've also been townreading all game and would also make a smart doc target. You brought that point up out of necessity, not because you believe me to be scum because of it.

My reasoning for this was already in the post you're responding to:

You'll recall I commented on how townie you were looking somewhere in the middle of D1. You were my biggest townread going into N3, since Elie had introduced a possibility with Kinumi-SB interactions that made me slightly less certain about the latter; protecting you was the optimal move.

and also prefaced in my last post of D3. I had reasons to doubt SB, so he was no longer my strongest townread.

Because that's what you're clinging desperately to to prove your innocence. You've believed and argued that your interactions with Kinumi have been townie. Do you think that conclusion would change with alignment? My point is that you knew that you could use your situation with Kinumi as a defence if the need arose and so there was a benefit in lynching your scumbuddy. Proof supporting this theory is evidenced by you actually using and maintaining your Kinumi interactions as a defence, and quite repetitively at that. Just because someone fails to defend themselves with something doesn't mean they couldn't think that they could defend themselves with something.

Really?

I'll explain FMPOV:

It's a 1v1 and it's beyond obvious to me alone that you are scum, so I need to demonstrate how I've genuinely tried to get scum lynched while you have only pretended to do so, etc.

So what can I do other than bring up the best example of where I have contributed in getting scum lynched? Naturally, your best defense is that I'm being over-defensive about it, that I'm trying to too hard to look townie, but that's a ridiculous issue to have. It's LYLO and if I'm not vocal, town will lose.

If I did what you prefer and did not talk about Kinumi, I'd be handing scum the win.

Your proof is that someone in a game-deciding 1v1 is being "too repetitive," despite reiteration being a given for any townie in that position.

There's nothing scummy about repeatedly saying how I'm townie when it's LYLO.

Your point that I chose to continue bussing Kinumi because I would rely on that towncred is fundamentally unsupported - it is a theory that does not explain how I am scum rather than simply a townie that actually succeeded in getting Kinumi lynched. And that brings us to the original flaw in this theory:

There's no reason for scum!me to suddenly start calling Kinumi scummy when neither of us have been previously called scummy, and when both of us can or already are pushing cases against other people that are popular lynches. It'd be completely unnecessary and basically playing against a scum wincon. And as a townie, I naturally mean to play against a scum wincon.