Israel/Gaza (Round 3)

[Radiant head]

I don't know what annoys me more, the sarcasm that makes no sense or that you can't post outside the quote box.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Radiant head

[Moishe Oofnik]

I don't know what annoys me more, the sarcasm that makes no sense or that you can't post outside the quote box.

I dont know what annoys me more, the lack of knowledge you posses about middle eastern politics or the fact that you dont have basic economic knowledge.

[KMT4ever]

Oh wow, they can vote. I guess that automatically nullifies every other human rights violation they go through in Israel.

​I used voting as one example. What human rights violations apply to Arabs in Israel proper? The West Bank and Gaza are not included in that, as Israel's decision to treat them as occupied territories is another issue altogether.

History doesn't go away, but status quos still change. Maybe a decade or more ago there would be some semblance of a reasoned thought behind this (that's a BIG maybe), does anyone still really think Israel and their hugely funded Iron Dome is under threat from Palestinians and their bottle rockets?

No, but Israel would much rather not have to worry about bottle rockets at all, much less the terrorists hiding in Gaza waiting for a chance to sneak in and blow stuff up. The only reason things aren't worse is because Israel has proven it is willing to retaliate. Look at what happened in Lebanon with Hamas. Anti-tank missiles, IEDs, pitched urban battles, etc. Israel came in, stomped Hamas, and no longer needs to intervene there. Gaza on the other hand is still a running sore. Terror tunnels, anyone?

Israel just uses the fear and the idea that they need to protect their existence to justify oppression. None of it justifies illegal occupation or mass murder.

They do need to protect their existence. The only thing I feel I can compare to the Arab-Israeli conflict in terms of length and amount of fighting is the rivalry between India and Pakistan. Even that was more of a competition than any attempt to actually destroy each other. Again, when there aren't thousands of terrorists right across the border screaming for the destruction of Israel and the death of all Jews I'll stop supporting Israel in its current actions.

Illegal occupation I can understand. The settlement policy is bad, and the one thing I really don't like about Israel's policy.

Where is there mass murder? Gaza? If you call "warning people that you're going to bomb their neighborhood many minutes in advance, then accidentally killing them when Hamas forces people to stay inside" mass murder...

In short, Israel gains nothing from intentionally oppressing/killing Arabs and Palestinians. It's been proven over and over again that trying to terrorize people into submission just makes them want revenge. This applies for all sides in this conflict. Israel and Fatah get it, even if the latter is screwed up in its own way. Hamas doesn't care. Israelis would much rather be friendly with the Palestinians, but the reality is that such a situation is likely impossible.

[Radiant head]

Quoting that box is a pain, so basically:

- Quick Google search will point this out, really. See "Law of Return."

- Yes, no rockets will always be better than the current state of things, but that still shows that Israel isn't fighting to preserve its own existence. It's just easy to sell the conflict that way, so that fear can justify all kinds of atrocities for them to commit in Palestinian regions. There's no proper distinction between terrorists and broadly generalized Arab people once fear mongering sets in.

In short, Israel gains nothing from intentionally oppressing/killing Arabs and Palestinians. It's been proven over and over again that trying to terrorize people into submission just makes them want revenge. This applies for all sides in this conflict. Israel and Fatah get it, even if the latter is screwed up in its own way. Hamas doesn't care. Israelis would much rather be friendly with the Palestinians, but the reality is that such a situation is likely impossible.

Which is precisely why extremists are in power in Gaza. Decades of oppression basically made desperate people vote for the "fuck Israel" party, even if they aren't acting in their best interests.

Aside from that, of course Israel benefits from illegal occupations and oppressing the region. It might not be their best course of action, but it doesn't mean it's not their current course of action.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Radiant head

[Moishe Oofnik]

Which is precisely why extremists are in power in Gaza. Decades of oppression basically made desperate people vote for the "fuck Israel" party, even if they aren't acting in their best interests.

Aside from that, of course Israel benefits from illegal occupations and oppressing the region. It might not be their best course of action, but it doesn't mean it's not their current course of action.

Opersision like what you keep saying they Opress but you dont say how

[blah the Prussian]

That's simply not true. The English Crown wasn't reinstated after Cromwell because of people being tired of being treated unfairly, they just wanted a more proactive head of state. And I also repeatedly said in the last post that the Athenian democracies weren't really entirely fair, but the system was based upon moving to fairness. I agree that the basis of communism was also rooted in a belief of a fairer system.

I didn't mean you, I meant apologist viewpoints that deny that shared responsibility. It came out awkwardly, I apologise.

Your just using one example, though; the Cambodian monarchy was sure as he'll reinstated because people were tired of being treated like shit by Pol Pot. Fascism in Italy rose because the people thought that Italy was treated unfairly at Versailles (whole other can of worms.) You won't get anywhere by just using examples. As for the Is Netanyahu a Sociopath thing, and the rights of Arabs, I would venture to say that it goes both ways. Both sides have good arguments. HOWEVER, electing Netanyahu didn't help anything, and will only make the situation worse. Also, Hamas was elected after Israel moved out of Gaza. They are an example of the people being swayed by demagogues, and democracy doing more harm than good. Edited March 21, 2015 by blah2127

[Irysa]

Your just using one example, though; the Cambodian monarchy was sure as he'll reinstated because people were tired of being treated like shit by Pol Pot. Fascism in Italy rose because the people thought that Italy was treated unfairly at Versailles (whole other can of worms.) You won't get anywhere by just using examples.

The same would apply to yourself you know. We could share exchanges back and forth over this (Spain has brought their monarch back multiple times, and it really wasn't an issue of fairness), but this won't go anywhere. You cannot deny the basic proposition that in a broad sense, more devolved powers towards a larger amount of people who are actually concerned with any issue is "fairer", as it makes individuals broadly more equal. Also, Italian Fascism had a lot more to do with extreme Nationalism than a concern for fairness. The actual movements pissed off about the fairness of Italian society (the anarchists, the socialists, etc) were basically all stamped out by the Fascist Blackshirts through force.

This is my last post on this subject.

[blah the Prussian]

The same would apply to yourself you know. We could share exchanges back and forth over this (Spain has brought their monarch back multiple times, and it really wasn't an issue of fairness), but this won't go anywhere. You cannot deny the basic proposition that in a broad sense, more devolved powers towards a larger amount of people who are actually concerned with any issue is "fairer", as it makes individuals broadly more equal. Also, Italian Fascism had a lot more to do with extreme Nationalism than a concern for fairness. The actual movements pissed off about the fairness of Italian society (the anarchists, the socialists, etc) were basically all stamped out by the Fascist Blackshirts through force.

This is my last post on this subject.

Fine. You win.

[Life]

Quoting that box is a pain, so basically:

- Quick Google search will point this out, really. See "Law of Return."

- Yes, no rockets will always be better than the current state of things, but that still shows that Israel isn't fighting to preserve its own existence. It's just easy to sell the conflict that way, so that fear can justify all kinds of atrocities for them to commit in Palestinian regions. There's no proper distinction between terrorists and broadly generalized Arab people once fear mongering sets in.

Which is precisely why extremists are in power in Gaza. Decades of oppression basically made desperate people vote for the "fuck Israel" party, even if they aren't acting in their best interests.

Aside from that, of course Israel benefits from illegal occupations and oppressing the region. It might not be their best course of action, but it doesn't mean it's not their current course of action.

1. Law of Return means that it is easier for a Jew to move to Israel and receive citizenship. However, it does not mean that only Jews can do so. Case in point: the hundreds of Eritreans living and working in Tel Aviv.

Bet you didn't know that.

EDIT: Just reread your comment and boy, you're wrong. A Muslim/Christian/whatever has the exact same rights as a Jew in Israel. Fact. The only places where this does not apply are Gaza (not Israeli territory) and the West Bank (under Israeli protection but not Israeli law). In those two areas, law is Palestinian law and that's why discrimination exists.

2. Quick question. The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is a predominantly Palestinian area, right? If your claim of Israel equating Arabs and terrorists is true, why has there been a peace treaty for 30 years with Jordan?

3. The same argument for voting for Hamas can be made for voting for the Nazi party back in 1932. The economic situation was so severe in Germany that the people were willing to listen to anything. And look at how that turned out.

By the way, Germany isn't exactly proud of the Nazi party, in case you missed that part.

Before you jump in with your comments of Apartheid and Racism, make sure that your Middle Eastern knowledge is more than just a high school course.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Man Bun

[blah the Prussian]

Okay, this actually really pisses me off. According to whose law is Israel illegally occupying anything? Regardless of the morality of it, no country is obligated to obey international law, unless they lack a pet superpower to protect them, in which case they're screwed.

Edited March 22, 2015 by blah2127

[Rapier]

@blah

Ok, I concede. Sorry for trying to engage without having a formed opinion about the matter, I'll try again when I have more knowledge.

But I'll open an exception to him since it's easy to refute:

That's pretty gross to say, considering how Arab people are forced to live in Israel. People compare it to Apartheid, but if anything, this shit is worse.

Any leader who errs on the side of fear over humanity is pretty damn sociopathic.

Arab people aren't forced to live in Israel, lol. There is no law that forces them into staying in Israel. They're free to move to their neighbors, though most of them (except maybe Jordan, Egypt and Turkey, as blah said, which are only three exceptions in a whole area) will oppress them with their fundamentalist, radical laws. No wonder why they prefer to stick with Israel. It is one of the few places where they wouldn't be treated like shit.

It also brings food for thought: If Israel is such a bad place, why do they stick to it?

Also, using strong terms like apartheid and neo-nazis is a very low kind of image difamation. If you're going to say the situation in Israel is worse than apartheid, back it up with evidence. Tell me how the rights of the Arabs are being violated just as the rights of black people were being violated on South Africa. Otherwise don't come with those difamatory, high impact terms.

Edited March 21, 2015 by Rapier

[Radiant head]

Before you jump in with your comments of Apartheid and Racism, make sure that your Middle Eastern knowledge is more than just a high school course.

Oh god, I didn't realize I was in a YouTube comment section.

Arab people aren't forced to live in Israel, lol. There is no law that forces them into staying in Israel. They're free to move to their neighbors, though most of them (except maybe Jordan, Egypt and Turkey, as blah said, which are only three exceptions in a whole area) will oppress them with their fundamentalist, radical laws. No wonder why they prefer to stick with Israel. It is one of the few places where they wouldn't be treated like shit.

No obviously they're not forced to live in Israel, but that's a separate issue from whether or not they're treated well there or not.

Also, using strong terms like apartheid and neo-nazis is a very low kind of image difamation. If you're going to say the situation in Israel is worse than apartheid, back it up with evidence. Tell me how the rights of the Arabs are being violated just as the rights of black people were being violated on South Africa. Otherwise don't come with those difamatory, high impact terms.

Examples:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-introduces-palestinian-only-bus-lines-following-complaints-from-jewish-settlers-1.506869

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/06/us-palestinians-israel-children-idUSBRE9250D520130306

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/survey-most-israeli-jews-would-support-apartheid-regime-in-israel.premium-1.471644#.UIhok04TJ1h.twitter

I just assume people in this thread have a working knowledge of what I'm referring to, but I didn't realize it wasn't so obvious.

[blah the Prussian]

I must say, anyone with a knowledge of South African Apartheid should know that what goes on in Israel isn't nearly as bad as what the South Africans did. If you were black in South Africa, police could detain you and beat you to death and no one who mattered would care. To liken what goes on in Israel to what thankfully no longer goes on in South Africa is practically Godwin's Law. In regards to the evidence, it IS important to note that the West Bank is occupied territory, and thus subject to different laws than Israeli law. I'm eager to see how Man Bun counters this evidence. I have popcorn at the ready.

[Rapier]

In regards to the evidence, it IS important to note that the West Bank is occupied territory, and thus subject to different laws than Israeli law. I'm eager to see how Man Bun counters this evidence. I have popcorn at the ready.

I'd like to ask how being an occupied territory obligatorily makes it subject to different laws than Israeli law (isn't it usually the opposite? Dominated territory being subject to their sovereign's laws?), but I have a feeling that my question is silly.

Mind sharing the popcorn?

[blah the Prussian]

I'd like to ask how being an occupied territory obligatorily makes it subject to different laws than Israeli law (isn't it usually the opposite? Dominated territory being subject to their sovereign's laws?), but I have a feeling that my question is silly.

Mind sharing the popcorn?

As an occupied territory, it is under Israeli military governance, not civilian governance. The military is basically allowed to do more shit.

Popcorn for all!

[SirBrickingtonCrushworthy]

Okay, this actually really pisses me off. According to whose law is Israel illegally occupying anything? Get off your high horse and actually consider the realities of war. Regardless of the morality of it, no country is obligated to obey international law, unless they lack a pet superpower to protect them, in which case they're screwed.

My thoughts exactly.

[eclipse]

Oh god, I didn't realize I was in a YouTube comment section.

Neither did I. Also, such comments aren't welcome - keep them to yourself.

I suggest that anyone that wants to respond to Life ("dude on the high horse") takes a good, long look at where he's from. This should save me from having to close the topic due to the fact that everyone can't play nicely together.

[Life]

Neither did I. Also, such comments aren't welcome - keep them to yourself.

I suggest that anyone that wants to respond to Life ("dude on the high horse") takes a good, long look at where he's from. This should save me from having to close the topic due to the fact that everyone can't play nicely together.

Bolded for importance. But just so you know, I'll spell it out.

I live currently in Tel Aviv, lived in Beer Sheva during the 2012 near-operation and have done guard duty on the Lebanese and Egyptian borders along with an extended (4 month) stint in the West Bank. When I say that I know what I'm talking about, it's because I've lived it.

The West Bank is under Israeli protection (or more specifically, the cities and towns that have been around for decades that are primarily Jewish). These are places such as Ma'ale Ephraim (a city I used to visit while on the West Bank), Gush Etzion and Ariel. In cities such as Nablus or Hebron, they are subject to the laws that the Palestinian Authority has set down, not Israeli. They cannot vote because they don't recognize the Kenesset as their ruling body. They choose to follow their own government. However, the IDF is there to regulate traffic (and regulate means stuff like stopping bombs which I have personally done so on one occasion) into areas near the ones I listed above or the actual country itself. Hence, under Israeli protection but not law.

There is no martial law by the IDF going on, no matter how hard you want to believe otherwise. Israel is not responsible for the Palestinians actions but we have a right to our own defense. Back in 2011, there was a family living in Ariel that was brutally slaughtered by a terrorist, including a four year old child and a 6 month old baby (the Fogels). It doesn't take a genius to realize that some form of security needs to exist in the area to avoid such acts.

You can call it apartheid all you like but just because you have an opinion does not give you the right to accuse others without proof, especially when you have no personal experience in the matter.

I do.

Is there shit that I don't like going on? Yes. Is Israel responsible for abusing the rights of people? Possibly. But is the country apartheid? No.

A friend of mine sent me a great rant about his reasoning for why he wants to join the IDF. I'll quote it here.

Currently just finishing up my degree at U of T. A big reason of why I want to volunteer is because of my experiences at U of T. If you're wearing a chai necklace or a kipah you won't be able to go one day without someone making an anti-israel comment. But what is anti-israel today was jews are all capitalists yesterday and jews are all socialists the day before and jews killed jesus the day before that. I've just come to the realization that no matter how progressive society gets, prejudice towards jews is still so deeply ingrained. And thats why I feel its so important to take part and fight for the one place that keeps us all safe.

The bolded sentence is the most important one. Look at the Holocaust. Then go back to the Russian pogroms and the Dreyfuss trial. Then back to the Spanish Inquisition and Expulsion before that. We Jews are always going to be hated. The only difference now is that we're done dying on our knees and would prefer to die on our feet.

Feel free to comment with newspaper clippings and articles of your choice about how I'm wrong and that Israel is apartheid and whatever you want. Just remember that you are using second hand material verses someone with practical personal experiences in the matter.

[blah the Prussian]

I never said Life was on a high horse. I did say it about someone else, but I'll delete it. It was a mistake.

[KMT4ever]

My regards. Israel and the Jews in general don't deserve the hate they get.

[Rehab]

Okay, this actually really pisses me off. According to whose law is Israel illegally occupying anything? Regardless of the morality of it, no country is obligated to obey international law, unless they lack a pet superpower to protect them, in which case they're screwed.

Sure, they don't have to. I imagine, though, that at a minimum, it

A) degrades the legitimacy of the law in the eyes of others- "why should we play by any rules imposed on us if nobody punishes them for flouting what they like, and indeed they continue to receive support?"

and, B) makes it easier for others to be unsympathetic or even jubilant when bad shit happens to them.

Play with fire...

[blah the Prussian]

Sure, they don't have to. I imagine, though, that at a minimum, it

A) degrades the legitimacy of the law in the eyes of others- "why should we play by any rules imposed on us if nobody punishes them for flouting what they like, and indeed they continue to receive support?"

and, B) makes it easier for others to be unsympathetic or even jubilant when bad shit happens to them.

Play with fire...

No country obeys international law. The US, for example, hasn't agreed to sign on with the International Court, because it knows that means accepting hat some of its soldiers will be imprisoned as war criminals. International law is essentially one giant farce. And, you think other countries need an excuse to invade Israel?

[Rehab]

No arguments here. The US govt (with probably enough domestic popular support that it's worth mentioning) indeed plays with fire like that at least as much as any other, so far be it for me to talk from a position of moral superiority or anything. Even we get burned for it occasionally, though.

It may be hard to pass a sentence on an uncooperative national government (as recentish ICC balloon-deflatings relating to African pseudo-mafia administrations may attest), but the court(s) of public opinion can be another matter.

[blah the Prussian]

But public opinion, even in a democracy like the US, doesn't really matter when faced by the strategic benefits of an alliance with Israel. Unless the entire population of America is against Israel (most Americans don't give a damn) the US will look the other way. The Israeli alliance is too valuable. As long as Israel keeps the alliance with America, it should be fine.

[Rehab]

I wasn't talking about merely the US. I mean everybody else in the world with a distaste or worse for Israel, which in any event probably isn't a grouping that has been shrinking recently. Obama has indeed become ticked enough that he's begun to snub Netanyahu a bit more recently, though, which has gotten some analysts worried that he may not be as quick to aid Israel in general, perhaps unless he gets something in return. Like, for example, whether he'll be jumping at the first chance to block Palestinian ICC applications coming up.

Not to say he will or he won't do anything for sure, or that anything will or won't happen to Israel for sure, which I shouldn't neglect to acknowledge is a strongly developed and continually developing country with not a small number of things to like about it. It's to say that it invites uncertainty to believe someone can be as unpopular with as many people as Israel is (though I can't speak for its accuracy, I'm being reminded of an international BBC poll where the only countries that fewer responders had a "positive opinion" of were the likes of Russia and Iran) and keep pissing those people off forever, no matter who their friends (or, maybe more accurately, allies) are.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Rehab