CYOU'RE - Game Over

[Percivalé]

or be like me and don't go to bed at a normal human hour!

[Bluedoom]

My gripe with players like Shin is the fact that their play always confuses me and it always seems scummy because their votes make no sense

Like, remember Yume Nikki, where Shin was town but for the entire of D1 he went back and forth with Elieson over the fact that he made a weak case in RVS with a vote and two lines. And then a mountain out of a molehill was made! I mean, I just checked his ISO from that game, and almost the entire thing was his D1 content! He flaked after that but it was a PITA to read him for the entire day but he made himself obv!town through interactions with people like Scum!Refa.

The last time I played with Scum!Shin as town was Semi-Precious Mafia, and there it really just felt like Shin came on at convenient times and made opportunistic votes. He's not show up for almost an entire phase and then make a deadline vote. That's why I don't feel the cases against Shin- I don't feel like he's the type of player to dig in for original reasoning and hop on to an RVS wagon, plus the reasoning would get him flak, since this case was really similar to the one in Yume Nikki.

[Refa]

I'm...halfway through Page 10. I think I can do this, you guys. Probably maybe hopefully definitely WHERE'S MY MOTIVATION HERE'S MY MOTIVATION *motivates self to finish post*

[Refa]

Also do you have an opinion/anything to say not named Dormio (one line going "wow kirsche is awesome" is not enough)? BBM is guilty of this of this as well and I'm just tired of seeing his name crop up.

wow kirsche is awesome

[euklyd]

also @euk: coyote>renard

no fuck you ##FoS: Randa
say that after I've commandeered your body, punk
also I tried putting together some coyote avatars and they all sucked as icons

aaaaand I still haven't gotten my hw done and I have no time for like all of tomorrow sunday is hard too fuck everything

from me like, guiltily skimming while avoiding my homework:
- shin felt graspy (not just the dormio thing) - which I gather is most of the case that's already been made against him
-- but shin is like always scummy D1 anyways so idrk here sigh
- eclipse feels like town which is odd for me to read her as
- refa is making posts without giving opinions afaict pedit: but apparently he's doing ~things~ irl so meh
--- not reading him as town which is weird for me (not like, ~scummy~ either, just, kind of nullish)
- sb feels like town but meh

somehow I've managed to miss like all of lots of people's posts I suck at reading

pretty sure I don't see kirsche as scummier than anyone else ##unvote
still has a creepy avatar tho would dayvig/10

and I need to sleep because it's already too damn late fuck my life

I feel bad making a shitty post but RL > mafia

---

this post has been tagged:
#gutreads #fuckhomework #sleepsux #transferessaysareworse

[euklyd]

wow kirsche is awesome

wow refa why are you hardbuddying that creepy bear kirsche are you sure you're not scum

legit sleeping now tho

[Refa]

Comprehensive read through of the game. If I missed anything, assume it wasn't worth commenting on.

[spoiler=Not Game Relevant Comments That Give Me The Motivation To Go On]

##Vote: Refa

I bet $5 refa is mafia in this game

That'll be $5. I can link you to my PayPal account if you want!

I bet you are the SK again!

##Vote: Quote

Is RVS voting for ITP's your scumtell? Because if so, keep up the good work, always nice to have more easy reads.

Cool, I can actually make a vote that makes sense now.

##Vote: Paperblade

Follow me, everyone! Your prince will lead you to victory!

His Dormio vote really feels like a filler vote. #Meta but I really don't think Town!Paperblade is the type to vote Dormio like he did.

Dormio's kirsche vote was dumb and full of paranoia but the wagon on him is just as dumb(I guess BBM can be excused for using meta though I know nothing of it and reading the linked thread requires effort). Tryhard reasoning is not really what I expect scum to do during RVS and trying to grasp out of something in RVS is really hard as mafia IMO. I don't think Townblade would vote Dormio for his dumb vote.

I really don't like this post. Marthipan mentions that the Dormio wagon is dumb and full of paranoia; however, he never mentions why the wagon is dumb, just that scum is unlikely to have tryhard reasoning...despite Dormio himself linking a post where he had tryhard reasoning as scum...so yeah. Also Marthipan never explains why the Dormio vote is scummy on Paperblade's part, just that it wasn't something that he expected Townblade to do. Ugh fuck this noise, this is actually a really good post. Like I said earlier that I thought his Paperblade suspicion was bad, but I'd see Scum!Marth shifting from that suspicion rather than continuing on it; also the way that he dismissed the Randa/Mancer wagons reads as town and not like him making excuses to stay off of a scumbuddy's wagon. Also he did adequately explain his Paperblade vote even though I still don't agree with it.

Overall: Townreading Marth. Most of my issues with him have dissipated by now, and his posts are making way more of an active effort than he's ever done as scum (or he's been holding out on me when we've been scumbuddies in which case fuck you Marthipan).

BBM's meta is wrong because making some random case in RVS is something I do regardless of alignment.

It tends to happen more when I'm town as opposed to scum simply due to the fact that I roll town more often.
And BBM stated that the last time I did this, I was scum when I was not.

Anyway, that's not really all that relevant. What interests me the most out of the entire exchange are the two posts by Shin. (#51, #75)

#51 isn't very interesting, #75 is though. Because I think that it's a vote that's been made to make it look as though Shin was contributing early in the game with some unique opinions when really he just wanted to jump on the bandwagon.

He states that I am "[...] not actually responding to people, [i'm] skirting around the issue and denying things." as well as "using self-meta as a defense instead of replying to stuff" (paraphrased).

I feel that these statements are inaccurate. After all, if you just take a look at the second statement there, the only reason I invoked self-meta was because I wanted to correct BBM who first brought up my meta to begin with.

I think that these arguments were made only because there was a fairly strong anti-Dormio sentiment going around at the time which allowed for things like this to pass without much scrutiny.

If Shin feels that this is not the case, I would like him to explain how I wasn't responding to people and how I was using self meta as a defense as opposed to replying to stuff.

##Unvote

##Vote Shin

Fair enough regarding your meta.

Does it really benefit scum to jump on your wagon early on (especially if they wanted to seem like they were contributing)? For better or worse, eventually the pressure would be taken off of you unless some jackass daycopped you right out of RVS and scanned you as scum. In my experience, scum is more likely to jump onto wagons in the middle of the day when things are getting finalized barring deadline panic. Anyways, your reasoning here is good and you shouldn't be expected to know this, but Shin typically has some...baffling logic as town (no offense, Shin) and that's why I didn't push him despite having the same issues that you did; still scumreading him for my own reasons (which are fully sick), but don't think this is relevant to his alignment.

First things first, I should respond to Shin's posts. (#125/126)
With regards to the first thing about playing the victim or whatever, I'm just saying that when somebody is put into the spotlight this weird mob mentality kicks in and weaker cases go through without being looked at too much.
Which is what I think that your vote was.
For the self-meta thing, I don't really know what to do if you're going after me for correcting something that was wrong.
Like BBM said that the latest instance of me doing something like this was when I was scum when it wasn't.
And then, for #126, I assume that you're referring to this post? (#72)

I said that I don't know how to respond to that post because I really don't. MancerNecro stated that I was being contradictory and I failed to see what part of my actions were contradictory and therefore said as much.

Is this your only example of me supposedly avoiding discussion?

I'm still happy with my vote on Shin for now.

I actually really like this explanation; screw you guys, Dormio wasn't particularly townie until this post. It's less so the reasoning (which is kind of similar to the reasoning in his last post, which I don't really agree with) and moreso the way he reacts to Shin (well, specifically Mancer, but it's posted at Shin); it's got that RIGHTEOUS INDIGNATION of a townie.

@Kirsche: I agree that Dormio making a suboptimal play doesn't make him scum by itself, it's more of...the way he went about doing it that bothered me. Dunno how to explain it. Also why is Dormio's initial Shin case good? Like it makes sense for a townie who hasn't played with Shin before, but I'm confused as to why you considered it sheepworthy at the time.

I have some individual reads on people as well which I will be putting in a new post so that this one doesn't get too cluttered up.

[Percivalé]

The last time I played with Scum!Shin as town was Semi-Precious Mafia, and there it really just felt like Shin came on at convenient times and made opportunistic votes. He's not show up for almost an entire phase and then make a deadline vote. That's why I don't feel the cases against Shin- I don't feel like he's the type of player to dig in for original reasoning and hop on to an RVS wagon, plus the reasoning would get him flak, since this case was really similar to the one in Yume Nikki.

hheugeREHREG this bothers me because I remember Shin playing similar to this when I was scum with him in SFMM3. god damn it marth i hate you I JUST WANT TO BE RIGHT

[Sunwoo]

Reading through Marth's ISO and the new content.

I think Boron's points on Refa are valid, but I'm not as confident meta-reading him and I'd like to read more of his content n the future before trying to make an informed read on him.

I'm pretty sure my case on Refa isn't purely a meta read? The example I pulled from Yume Nikki wasn't supposed to be used as a meta read, but why I consider the points I was making on Refa (and Paperblade) a valid scum tell. Also, if you're more comfortable lynching Mancer over Randa if you had to choose, does that mean you have a scum read on Mancer or just that you feel Randa is more townie than he is? Do you think people casing Shin just don't know what he's like, are opportunistic scum, or it's too early for you to tell?

While I disagree with Quote's vote on Shin, I don't feel they are scummy over it. I am curious as to what they think of Paperblade and Mancer now, though. Are you still reading them as scummy, because I don't think you've posted an updated opinion of what you think about him or really "dropped" him as a suspicion.

Junk, your vote is on Mancer right now. Do you still think he's scum or do you find Shin scummier at this point? Because right now you aren't making any note of your Mancer read or saying whether anything has changed (even though he's been around) and if you find Shin scummier why is your vote still on Mancer? Also, do you have any thoughts on anyone besides your town read on kirsche and not liking Shin?

Speaking of Shin, I'd like to see his responses to people's cases on him when he gets back.

I see your post, Refa, but I have a headache and will respond to it when I'm feeling better (which might not be until way later in the afternoon).

[Percivalé]

I still think Mancer is scummy but not sure about Paperblade anymore (I feel like I did address the latter but not the former)

[Refa]

Boron: I don't get how she doesn't get any reads from Dormio/Shin; OK, so their votes on each other aren't particularly telling. What about the rest of their content? You can't just dismiss the leading wagon by saying "well, his vote on Dormio" isn't scummy without looking at the rest of his content (I mean Shin); I can sympathize with reading people who you have a hard time reading (thank god Prims got N1'd), but that doesn't excuse you from making no effort on that front. Of course all of my latest posts don't have relevant content, I specifically mentioned that I hadn't read the thread in like most of them. I just wanted to get out my questions/responses while the people who asked them were still online and not later on when I ended up making my post. Also I was obvious scum in Yume Nikki because I was really demotivated after rolling scum a bajillion times, which obviously can't be the case here (and most of my posts were in the RVS phase, so they obviously weren't made for the purpose of feigning content). Don't see how in the world Paper's posts can be construed as having a lot of empty noise, or why this is scummy (he still has more content than non content); I dunno, this in particular bothers me because it's just a very easy point to make. Similar feelings to Randa, although less strong because you do question some of his content there. Why is the basis for BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty? The only thing you've said is that you don't agree that Dormio was scummy, which is different from peoples' suspicions having a flaw in them.

Overall: Scumreading her. The only thing that really bothers me about my Boron read is that while I have a lot of problems with her play, tonewise she comes off as a lot townier than she did for me in SFMM4. Anyways, if she's town then she can probably make a satisfactory reply anyways so I'm less worried about my read on her than say my read on Shin.

Mancer: Something that bothers me about Mancer isn't his actual case on Dormio (which I had no issues with), but how he's persistently hounding the dude over a minor point (that being the fact that Dormio never explicitly called kirsche scummy); it's just very similar to Hard NOC's 2 wherein he hounded Randa for assuming there was a Cult Leader for the better part of the first day and didn't let up until he was called out on it. His later explanation here though is pretty legit; ugh, Mancer please be easier to read. His SB case is baffling, but like...not in a Scum!Mancer sort of way, if that makes any sense. Other people brought up good points about his reads disappearing though. But then again, him reading everyone as null town really doesn't seem like Scum Mancer I hate everything.

Overall: (*$H%(*$@U$J(*@*(N@)FNH$(*N$(*%NN($U)@M)$&@FN)N*$F)$N&)*$N&&)N$))@($MANCERPLEASE

Mitsuki: Her Shin suspicion is fine, her eclipse suspicion is not. Not only does she not mention why eclipse is scummy, but her Mancer/Randa reads are like...way stronger for that very reason. It's just a little too weak for her second highest scumread. Not sure if this is because she's scum or just frustrated, please make more posts when life gets less frustrating xoxoxo.

Overall: Slightly scummy, it's slight because her eclipse read was poorly explained but she also only made one post and seemed to be pressed for time so whatever.

Randa: Not gonna lie, I haven't seriously analyzed any of his posts. I'm just inclined to believe that he's town because besides kirsche's early vote on him, all of the issues with him seem to be because he's Randa more so than because he's Scum!Randa, if you catch my drift. However, would like him to answer a question. Randa, why was Paperblade's vote on Dormio worse than anyone elses' (you specifically compared his to Shin, but I don't see how Shin's added more discussion than Paperblade's did)?

Overall: Town. I'm not conflicted on him at all, so this should be pretty fucking obvious.

Shin: Something that bothers me about him is his unwillingness to change his position on Dormio, because I've always considered Town!Shin to be a pretty flexible dude barring certain situations in LYLO (fuck you, Prims ;_;). I agree that Shin's Randa read is baffling (he says Randa is scummy for not committing to cases but he's townie because he's following the game). Honestly I wouldn't be bothered if he just had his Dormio read at that point, because the only other significant cases were ON him, but the Randa read just seems like filler for the sake of it. Also Shin, ISO's are like in the first post...somehow I get the feeling that you didn't actually make an effort to ISO anyone. I don't get Shin's issues with BBM at all (again, reads like more filler), where did his Randa read go in the post where he voted Bizz (nowhere), and he's just voting Bizz for being Bizz without offering adequate explanations for why Bizz's reads on Dormio/Mancer are really graspy (saying they lack conviction is not actually an explanation for why they're graspy; all graspy votes lack conviction). Bluedoom does bring up a good point though, gonna skim through Shin's Yume Nikki ISO to see how similarly he's playing.

Overall: He's my scumread that I feel the most confident about, but I still want to read Yume Nikki to make sure because I remember him acting similar as well and I really don't want to be responsible for yet another Shin mislynch (dude deserves a break at some point).

Everyone else that I didn't mention/reply too is a townread or a lurker. I also didn't read Euklyd's post because I'm planning on hardbuddying him when he inevitably gets mislynched D1 for maximum towncred (what now, Euklyd).

[Refa]

wow refa why are you hardbuddying that creepy bear kirsche are you sure you're not scum

legit sleeping now tho

i need someone who'll read enough into me so as to think that me hardbuddying you right before you get mislynched is townie as fuck and kirsche fit the bill.

[Refa]

Oh, and one more thing; can people explain their scumreads on BBM because he's like the only person who's posted (somewhat) significantly that I have a null read on.

[Sunwoo]

I was not going to reply until the afternoon, but since this appeared while I was here and it's directly addressed towards me:

Boron: I don't get how she doesn't get any reads from Dormio/Shin; OK, so their votes on each other aren't particularly telling.

Bolded is a lie. I've stated that I don't think Dormio's actions were scummy, therefore I do not have a scum read on him. Even though I may not have agreed with his Shin vote, that doesn't change my read on him. So yeah, I have a read on Dormio.

What about the rest of their content? You can't just dismiss the leading wagon by saying "well, his vote on Dormio" isn't scummy without looking at the rest of his content (I mean Shin); I can sympathize with reading people who you have a hard time reading (thank god Prims got N1'd), but that doesn't excuse you from making no effort on that front.

Do you honestly think I haven't tried to make the effort to form an initial read? I am stuck so hard on Shin because I really don't think his actions are scummy and there are a lot of things he has to respond to when he gets back that'll probably influence my read on him. Just because I'm not being hasty as fuck and forcing myself to have a read I have no confidence in doesn't mean I'm not making an effort. It means I need more information before I can make a read I'm confident in. Maybe you should try bullshitting a read on someone you have a hard time reading without enough information.

Of course all of my latest posts don't have relevant content, I specifically mentioned that I hadn't read the thread in like most of them. I just wanted to get out my questions/responses while the people who asked them were still online and not later on when I ended up making my post.

Personal pet peeve: I hate it when people do this. I'd prefer it if people read the thread first.

Also I was obvious scum in Yume Nikki because I was really demotivated after rolling scum a bajillion times, which obviously can't be the case here (and most of my posts were in the RVS phase, so they obviously weren't made for the purpose of feigning content). Don't see how in the world Paper's posts can be construed as having a lot of empty noise, or why this is scummy (he still has more content than non content); I dunno, this in particular bothers me because it's just a very easy point to make.

Not obvious enough, because after RVS ended you still got away for a good part of D1 before I constructed an updated case on you. And regardless of the situation, it is still a scum tell so I don't see what your point here is. Paper's ISO rather annoys me, on another glance it looks like a lot of his stuff is sort of "in response" but doesn't really add anything new or look into anything, which he could've done instead of simply responding. His statements also feel "bare bone", like he's making an observation on the surface but not really looking into it.

Similar feelings to Randa, although less strong because you do question some of his content there. Why is the basis for BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty? The only thing you've said is that you don't agree that Dormio was scummy, which is different from peoples' suspicions having a flaw in them.[/size]

I already explained why I found the basis of BBM's Dormio suspicion faulty, go read it! He made a side comment about Dormio's meta and why his kirsche vote was scummy, and after he was corrected on the faulty meta he looked like he was still trying to use Dormio's meta to say that Dormio couldn't be considered "townie" on it, or in other words holding something against Dormio over meta! Also, you say here that I said I didn't agree that Dormio was scummy. Earlier, you said that I had no reads on Dormio. Which is it, huh?

Overall: Scumreading her. The only thing that really bothers me about my Boron read is that while I have a lot of problems with her play, tonewise she comes off as a lot townier than she did for me in SFMM4. Anyways, if she's town then she can probably make a satisfactory reply anyways so I'm less worried about my read on her than say my read on Shin.

I was scum in SFMM4. If my tone comes off a lot townier than it did in that game, kind of tells you something, doesn't it?

Also fuck you Refa your post contained so many weird tags that wouldn't quote properly it took me twice as long to get this reply done.

[Bluedoom]

I'm pretty sure my case on Refa isn't purely a meta read? The example I pulled from Yume Nikki wasn't supposed to be used as a meta read, but why I consider the points I was making on Refa (and Paperblade) a valid scum tell. Also, if you're more comfortable lynching Mancer over Randa if you had to choose, does that mean you have a scum read on Mancer or just that you feel Randa is more townie than he is? Do you think people casing Shin just don't know what he's like, are opportunistic scum, or it's too early for you to tell?

My bad, I know yours wasn't purely meta, but I mean that I still couldn't judge Refa's play based on his ED1 stuff which was really empty noise as you say. By meta I meant using meta to see if Refa's ED1 play was like his scumplay. Though he has a content post now, I'm still on the fence, since I know that one of his scum strats is to make big posts (kinda like Eury walls) to make it seem like he's contributing and coast on that. Not a priority atm but I'm p wary of him.

I have a scumread on Mancer and this is because of his indecisiveness and now he's struggling with all town-null reads. I know he's trying to change his posting style to a less spammy one, but that doesn't mean his scumhunting ability should be deterred! Like in Qprogue Mancer was capable of getting definite, strong scumreads like the one on me( D1 anyway ;-;). Just think his waffling and playing devil's advocate to himself during the kirsche/Dormio debacle just really looks scummy now when I see the rest of his reads and ISO. The reason he's not a top priority or that I don't feel as strong about this one is because he also has the tendency to tunnel/make a mountain out of a molehill of small things even as town, which explains his initial behaviour with Dormio.

I think its too early to tell, but I didn't get scumvibes from Via or Mitsuki when they voted Shin. I'll need to see the rest of the people scumreading/voting him though.

[Refa]

^^Seems like a reasonable reply on first glance, will make a more deserving response after RP post + sleep; I've had my fill of mafia for now.

Read through Shin's Yume Nikki ISO; I recommend anyone who was in that game to do the same, because 1) it's a pretty short ISO and 2) pretty elucidating WRT his meta. Firstly, Shin's vote was purely reactionary there; this is in line with his town meta, because he tends to be more reactionary when he knows he's town. Here, he never voted Dormio for voting him or even expressed a scumread on Dormio for doing so; he just kind of... disparaged Dormio's vote? Also his other reads are much more fleshed out and clear there, and not as forced as they come across here. He was also more willing to admit his faults, which he kind of hasn't done here (to be fair, maybe he doesn't think he's done anything wrong, but meh; I feel like this is something Town!Shin would've done at this point). Overall, there's an active effort to contribute there that I'm just not seeing here. Feel better about my scumread on him.

##Unvote

##Vote: Shin

[Refa]

...That was at Boron, not Marthipan.

[Dormio]

It would be quite nice if Shin were to post more things.

In the meantime, I guess I'll go read some other people and stuff.

[Percivalé]

shin lives in the Mysterious Timezone of the Universe where money actually grows on trees and there may, in fact, be unicorns

[Refa]

So he lives in Animal Crossing, in eternal fear of Tom Nook siccing a new house upgrade on him and putting him millions of bells in debt. Still better than Harvest Moon, though.

[Shin]

It certainly was an interesting ED1, now I can start having some real fun!

Somehow, Boron reads as incredibly cautious, like super cautious. Understandably, she's got a lot of work going on right now, so that might be it. Recalling British Mafia, she was really pushing town forward, but it's not like she's currently trying to hide. I'm kinda null for now.

Votes on me aren't an issue but Mitsuki's one on me feels really easy. It's essentially the same case that the entire herd have been sheeping. Voicedwhat I meant about the meta comment quite some while ago, but that seems to be something people tend to ignore. Essentially, both her top reads are based on the meta comment. I feel like she's hanging around in the background.

Mancer's vote on SB is reactionary and very self-conscious. The logic that Dormio drew attention in order to gain town-cred is a bit of a stretch. I'd be willing to buy the logic that Dormio made a weak case, but not that he engineered one to cause a riot and make himself look good. SB does raise a valid point about Mancer's agreeability with anything Dormio related. His #219 seems like a smooth way to change his stance on me without doing anything.

Dormio's #202 is a filler post, I don't really see what it achieves other than "I'm still voting Shin".

SB, my stance on BBM is whilst he tends to be agreeing and disagreeing with stuff on the surface. Like BBM's catchphrase with this game is "I can agree with X case". He's kinda in the same boat as Boron. They're there, they're reading but they seem to be testing the waters rather than diving in. It's still fairly early so it's a null sign, but if it were to continue in to D2 or something, that's when I'd take issue.

Junko vote is what. I may need to reread but I cannot see where it came from. You "agreeing with stuff" looks really bad, it gives the impression that you're even following the game.

Marth, are you scumreading BBB,? You said you can understand where Mancer/Randa are coming from but it doesn't sound like you're particularly reading either of them as scum.

Via's reaction is exactly what I wanted, more elaboration on stuff. At the time of my vote, I felt very little conviction of things and the Paperthing confused me to no end.

A note to all, I am generally not around in the US's evenings/night times. I live in a magical world where our cars are mirrored and we always put a u between an o and an r.

##Unvote

##Vote: Junko

Very uncommitted. I'm not sure if it's possible to lurk on D1, but I've barely noticed Junko other than where he literally posts to show he exists.

Kinda scummy: Junko > Mitsuki > Mancer

Kinda eh: Marth > Boron = BBM

Everyone else: Them

Handsome tier: Shin

[Shin]

I am fully willing to accept that my Dormio case wasn't great, but at the time it's what I was going on.

[Percivalé]

>reaction test

ok

i'm gonna experiment

##Unvote

##Vote: Mancer

screw the rules I have green hair etc.

[Refa]

Instead of replying to people, I...

Day 1.31785649162418 - Refatals
Shin (5): Dormio, kirsche, Quote, Mitsuki, Refa
Randa (3): Reinfleche, dirge of swans, Paperblade
Paperblade (2): Bluedoom, Randa

MancerNecro (2): eclipse, Junk
Bluedoom (1): BBM
Refa (1): Sunwoo
SB. (1): MancerNecro
Sunwoo (1): SB.
Via (1): Shin
Not Voting (5): Da Bear, Polydeuces, Shinori, #HBC Larsa, Euklyd

There are 43 hours and 34 minutes left in the phase. With 21 alive, it takes 7 to deadline lynch and 11 to hammer.

I've been informed that Prims is gay.

This is really more for myself than anyone else, but might as well post it I guess.

[Refa]

I hate you all.