CYOU'RE - Game Over

[BBM]

man I forgot my PR in my last post almost as bad as you guys lynching Randa without a claim

I could see Shinori as being scum trying to white-knight town!Shin? He just keeps repeating I DON'T SEE THE SHIN CASE without really saying why and just keeps saying 'I don't even know why Shin is a wagon' despite quoting people posting Shin cases... It's kind of weird that the Shin case is so incomprehensible to him that he can't see it at all despite literally looking at it.

[BBM]

dsgafa forgot to heil myself that may even be WORSE than the Randa lynch if that's possible

##Unvote, ##Vote: Shinori yolo

HEIL MYSELF

[Shinori]

Fucking the shin case is like the only thing I've read.

[Shinori]

I bet scum team is like BBM, Refa, Marth, and some shit.

[Shinori]

I need to like actually go back to reading. Y'all are distractin' me.

[Shinori]

I almost want to be lynched and revived but that's risky as fuck and kind of dumb as hell since idk how that role works (spoilers it's not me)

I should probably mention Marth's role isn't what I thought it was though.

Also Marth can you tell me what the fluff in my posts was?

BBM is weird because I feel like his D1 was good but his early D2 bugged me, then it got better again. tbh I am mostly bugged by how he's buddying up to me, and I can't really take the "As scum I'd lynch you if I could" at face value. Like I said, maybe I am just being paranoid, but he just feels... too helpful, and the weird way he was dismissing's Marth's case bugs me

SB is also interesting because he (and Marth) were pretty stubborn about me during the lynch, and his sudden 180 on me to primary lynch target was sorta weird imo. The thought here is like, if SB were a maflord, would he suddenly push that case like that, then drop it right now that it looks like I'm not gonna be lynched? I don't think his push on BBM makes sense as scum/scum

Basically, Shin's case on SB is what I'm getting at, SB's switch to me felt very sudden.

See like. I like this post.

[Eurykins]

NOW, WITHOUT FURTHER ADO, I need to crank out what thoughts/reads I can, starting from D1 (Tl;dr: Probs going to run through 30+ pages of content starting from D1.. oh boy).

Going down the ISOs:

BBM

[D1]

- I actually find this post a bit quirky, imo. Given ED1, it's not unusual for people to be semi-graspy or otherwise look at something someone says/does with a great deal of skepticism. Also, people with more experience in Mafia games (such as Kirsche himself) can and do have the knowledge/means of otherwise dropping crumbs for various reasons. Also, the vote itself just felt more opportunistic (dat early wagon) and otherwise an easy way to make yourself splash about "productively" ED1.

- The meta comments on Dormio are real? "Meta isn't everything, but at the same time he's been seen doing so before as scum." = Feels like an easy way of pointing fingers/highlighting what he's doing in a plausible poor light, while maintaining distance/conviction with your comment ("could be true, could maybe not be").

- Wrt this post:

~> People CAN lurk and be seen as lurking from the game start- even 12 hours in- if they're seen legitimately staring/been online and looking at the thread from the start 'til the 12 hours or so has past. And if what was happening earlier in ED1 was happening (lots of splashing around with Dormio wagon/votes n' such), for what reason would someone have in not responding remotely with any thoughts?

~> The notions against Via/Quote being the "worst offender" to you, but then you stating " That being said I like some of the other stuff they said, so MEH" = wut? Does you liking some part of Via's posts imply that their action of being the worst offender = no longer worth standing by? You, once again, lack conviction/commitment and seem very wishy-washy with your read on them.

~> Dormio comment = more backpedaling from prior posts and an easy way to still discredit him, but also covering your own ass by distancing yourself from committing on him one way or another. Throwing up lots of dust there, BBM.

~> Honestly, yeah, Marth's vote kinda sucked on PB. But the fact that you also seemed to put forth "Honestly my gut feeling is that he just wanted to pick at people on the Dormio wagon." gives yet another uncertain vibe of, "Due moreso to my gut vibe than by just gameplay alone, I'm voting for this person", and seems to lack a backbone of sorts with your vote.

- The tone of this post feels kinda meh, and the Shin comment feels like trying to avoid contributing/supporting a wagon/case that you openly claim to agree with.

- Wrt this post:

~> More tunneling on Marth, yay.

~> The notions of what he said about "bad play =/= scum play" actually doesn't contradict his notion of "people on the Dormio wagon are finding him scummy due to bad gameplay"; some people find certain notions/actions (like bad gameplay) to be scummy outright, while others don't. It's moreso a different in opinions/PoVs in handling Mafia gameplay, imo. Also, the notion of him only doing so because of the Dormio wagon = You're kinda also pinning him (Marth) down because of his notions against said wagon (so, inadvertently, you're also picking on him because of the wagon that occurred)- pot meet kettle?

~> Shin read/comments felt pretty thin, and kinda bad in a sense. "Still not entirely sure what point he's trying to make about me but shrug." - Someone's making random points/notions wrt yourself, which you don't completely understand, and you find nothing wrong/peculiar about this, nor worth asking/poking about? Seems odd to me.

~> Last lines feels like you're giving yourself more wiggle room to avoid having to have/produce in-depth reads/contributions to the rest of the players in the game; not really fond of it.

- Easy blurb on Dormio here, along with more Marth tunneling (surprise surprise).

- "fwiw I think the 'Shin is voting people who voted him' argument is bad." = Okay... so what? Even if the argument being posed in itself is bad, what does it say about anyone who may or may not have used it against Shin? Kinda pointing fingers again without really doing anything productive with it. Also, kinda weirded out by the random YOLO JUNKO TURBO SHIZZ at the end of the post.

- K. Willing to lynch Randa, but no vote to support it.

- Don't see why you're so eager to hammer someone who hasn't even claimed (and flipped Doc- gj on that). Also you take such pride in your case without even voting/supporting it fully yourself. Weird.

[D2]

-LOL THE HYPOCRISY IS REAL. Even if you yourself didn't hammer, you were sure biting at that bit, BBM. You're just as guilty for letting people sheep your case/letting Randa get lynched (without a claim) despite you not having your vote on him (which actually makes it seem even worse on you imo).

- Easy way for you to say/imply "I just put the case out and people chose to pursue it; my hands are (technically) clean of his blood 'cause I didn't even vote for it, but was willing to by the end 'cause wagon hype!" and be pretty distant from your own case/notions against Randa.

- So why is there no reason to complain wrt lynching Randa given NO claim(s) being stated/pulled forth beforehand? I'm pretty sure that qualifies as bad gameplay as a whole, and was pretty damn reckless of you all to do (town and scum, though scum benefits plenty from it, imo, despite the revival). Also, someone who's willing to likewise hammer doesn't make them moreso town or scum, imo. All it means is that SOMEONE secured a hammer; town or scum alike can do so easily. You flipping this much on Marth (by this point/post) compared to your death tunnel on him D1 sounds extremely hot-cold.

- What does apathy matter wrt Mafia posts- how does it come off as good or bad to you? Was Junko being apathetic necessarily a scum tell or no? Also, dat sheepin' of (mostly) SB's case on Mancer; why do you backpedal so much when ONE person (in this case, Refa) suddenly doesn't want to lynch him? Yes, you should be be wanting to look into other people as well, but just because one person objects doesn't mean you should pull back off of someone because of it.

- I don't agree with your point wrt Marth and his attempted/want for the hammer. Just because scum knows what the flip will be doesn't mean that they wouldn't be eager for a hammer. All it means is that it sealed Randa's fate; one that could have been easily avoided if an actual claim came to light. But instead, the time was cut short, as was the discussion, and a townie died. Something scum can and will push for if/when it suits their fancy. You also seem pretty prickly/defensive with your tone overall within the post.

- Wrt this post:

~> Re-reading over someone's content (especially to see someone's cases/interactions with others) isn't something you shouldn't do just because you figure they're obv-town. The possibility of missing scum-town interactions increases, especially if someone scum-sided is trying to interact positively with someone seemingly obv-town to the rest of the player-base (your notion of not reading over her again because of being "obv-town" sounds like careless/lazy gameplay at best).

~> Kirsche read seems terrible for several reasons:

1. "I don't really agree with the Shin case but I don't think that his park is scummy because he's still talking about a lot of other people and he still does talk about Shin too." - Since when does "I talk about a lot of people" suddenly remedy the fact that someone may or may not have a good case against someone else? This seems like faulty logic in terms of clearing/justifying/being okay with his actions.

2. "Only complaint is probably that it doesn't feel like he's really trying as hard as he could to get Shin lynched?" - This is a fair point; so what of it? For what reasons do you see/believe that he would have for not committing to his case(s) on Shin, and does this make him scummy or not for presenting a case but not pursuing it?

3. "A part of this might be BECAUSE he's still talking about a lot of other people though, so meh." - ....SO? You're pointing out fault(s) with his gameplay/posts, yet you're waving them off for the easiest of reasons. Too easy, BBM, too easy.

~> "I'm townreading everyone but Mancer and maybe SB though I was townreading him before his case on me. Dunno how much of my change in opinion is because the case sucked and showed he wasn't reading my posts clearly and how much is reactionary 'screw that dude who just voted for me'" Lol, 21 man game, and you're only getting 2 scum reads/the rest town reads? Either scum's doing a fantastic job (which may or may not be the case) or you're hyper-funneling your sights/priorities and not really looking at people in more detail. And even the SB read seems more reactionary, given his turn/case on you happening, so even that read in itself is kinda poor.

- Poor game motivation is one thing, but this vote is so easy/poorly done. Also, the lack of initiative you seem to be taking into reading into more players/ISO's screams massive lack of effort/interest, which is coming off more scummy than lazy-town.

- Interesting assumption/notions here, though I don't agree with you guys openly speaking about whom the doc should be targetting. Making it easier for scum to work around night actions, yo, pls stahp.

- Maybe, maybe not. Also, why assume Kirsche as a secondary target?

- I find it amusing that you're criticizing someone for being non-commital/weak with their cases/gameplay (in this case, Euklyd's cases), when you yourself have fallen short in that aspect, BBM. Once again, the hypocrisy is real.

TL;DR: There's something seriously off with BBM's gameplay, and there's too much wishy-washy aspects with the vast majority of his posts. Fine with lynching this slot.

Bluedoom/Marth)

[D1]

- Poor vote. 'Nuff said.

- Better vibe to this post, and was okay with the content for the most part.

- The Shin hand-waving based on town!Shin meta sounds weird to me (given what he's waving off as being part of his meta), and why Via's case = the one you apparently haven't looked at, amongst the other Shin case(s)?

- Interesting post in defending Shin to some extent. Half-complaining, half-reasoning in light of him "in general not making sense with his voting/actions".

- This post actually feels pretty bad to me. "Just because I have one strong read/vote on someone, I shouldn't have a need for any other ones!" Kinda tunneled/lazy much?

- This post/vote swap feels odd, especially given the above post's notions. Feels oddly like you're going with the flow/doing things to appease the rest of your playerbase, which makes me question your initial drive towards PB vote/case.

- Why does it seem to be that meta is moreso the driving source of your case(s), vs. actual in-game content?

- I'll agree with Eclipse on this one that you should've been policy-lynched 'cause the tone/wording used in this post was god awful.

- Dat TOWNIE [not really] vibe in this post is legendary. (Actually kinda feels more scummy of an opportunistic post than anything.)

- Eh I suppose so.I may not agree fully with how Mancer put it out, but I will say: I personally would prefer to see strong, clear-cut/trustworthy townies remaining in a *YLO situation rather than those whose gameplays are so chaotic that it's easily mistaken as being actually scummy (IE. Easier for scum to play off of it, though let's be real- that's what scum's aiming for, if not a full/outright sweep of the townies/other parties altogether in the game). See the last day phase of Shining Force 3 Anon (I believe it was... Knot?); his actions were so god-awful that, as the leading force of said mislynch, I honestly can say that I didn't feel bad, because he was (as a townie) conducting himself in such an anti-town manner that removing him, I felt, was achieving just as much as actually removing an actual scum member (and in a sense, us townies didn't deserve to win after how the game played out, lol...).

- The tone, once again, is pretty bad in this post.

[D2]

- Except there were other options still open, time left, and THERE WAS NO CLAIM. So, yes, people who pushed the Randa mislynch can be seen as having done something bad/careless. Perhaps it was unavoidable with how everyone was acting at the time, but that doesn't make it a GOOD or otherwise validate the fact that you guys nailed a townie- the DOC at that.

- Wrt this post:

~> I don't fully agree with the notions wrt Mitsuki. There's still much utility with her role(s), and by putting it out in the open- yes, it gives it much townie cred/consideration. However, it isn't unnatural for scum to wager large gambits (high risk, high reward), especially with the how the game's played out thus far (3 townies down, no scum removed as of yet).

~> Something feels off wrt Shin notions; why are you so sure he'll be "another scapegoat" like Randa was, when Randa's time was cut short without him even claiming? (That and the wagon kinda grew and with what seemed like pretty poor justification). That, and stating things like, "Scum wouldn't play/do things this bad 'cause that's a shitty strat" really doesn't validate nor otherwise excuse bad gameplay. That, and scum are just as liable/open to playing poorly as town is- not a reason/means to clear him.

~> Shinori's always a scrublord when it comes to activity, and 90%+ of the time he's scum. Imo, he's probably scum in this game as well.

~> Okayish BBM points, but kinda has a wishy-washy vibe to your notions/points on him.

- Unless you know him IRL/knew what he was doing outside of the game at the time, I don't believe that it's fair to assume that someone will or will not appear if/when given a 2 hour window that's cut short by a hammer.

- That's... probably why they died? #Logics.

- Perhaps you should consider looking more at just what they're doing (and seeing whether their words/actions in themselves are liable to being scummy or not) rather than always subjecting it to META for your reads? That prod to vote, also.

- So you're implying that scum!Shin is incapable of making bad plays/votes due to carelessness or otherwise, well, poor gameplay/choices?

- Careless notions/requests are careless. Stop requesting town's power roles to openly target yourself and/or others. This kinda applies to other people as well.

- Not sure I fully agree with your logic, but if all else fails: Kill it with fire?

- Wrt this post:

~> Few votes can either result in "once bitten, twice shy" mislynch from D1 (not just dumping votes onto a random wagon without any source of info) or otherwise people are inactive? Could be a mix of factors.

~> What makes the AtE from Paper a townier thing to do than scum-sided?

~> Notions of Shino/Euk I can sorta understand, but the feeling/vibe I'm getting from your post itself feels like you feel almost obligated to speak of being okay with their lynch possibilities (but not really putting any real support/interest down for them). Distancing factor, perhaps?

- As a whole, this post feels so.... empty. The tone is pretty lifeless, and seems to waffle on a bit of Shino vs Euk considerations for consolidation lynch options.

TL;DR: I'm a bit distrustful with your gameplay since D1 content, and it really hasn't improved much at all come D2. Seeing a lot of pretty bad gameplay, imo, and I'm still pretty skeptical of you even after dem role crumbs were dropped; but willing to leave the slot alone unless more distasteful comment comes 'round.

MAN, THESE ISO SO LOOOOOOOONG. Posting what I have up now (yeah, I KNOW, ONLY TWO PEOPLE DONE. GAWD), and going to focus on those who seem to be of highest priority atm. I may need to shove some of these into spoiler windows if they keep being this long... =___=;;

[Bluedoom]

Yeah Junkykins is town because look at how detailed that wall is

I feel like this is the game where everyone townreads everyone or something

[Shinori]

Can someone gimme a tl'dr of like everything Post Page 15 or so.

And Eury's post.

[Refa]

Eury gave a tl,dr; of her own reads so like I'm just saying man.

Also it's BBM, Refa, Marth, and Reinfleche.

[Eurykins]

^ What Refa said, Scumnori. Geez, l2r.

And apparently (looking back at the last votals) my vote (from Junko slot) is still sitting on someone, so.

##Unvote

'Til I get moar shizz out.

[Shinori]

Also that mancer post I quoted earlier was like really bad looking bad at it.

[euklyd]

hi I exist

I really feel like SB and Paper are both town if those wagons are still things (p sure they are)
SB has this combination of content that I think is Pretty Good and reevaluating his own reads that I don't really associate with his scumplay
I don't actually remember if that's an accurate impression of his meta someone should tell me if I'm wrong

Paper just reads as town to me as well; like I get that he's playing to his !!scum meta!! (except that we don't know if his cases are on scum, I guess) but his tone feels different than what I remember of him as scum

also BBM I said why I wasn't putting down a vote when I was entirely not done reading things
also also when there are no scumflips to go on it's very hard for me to approach even 75% sure unless someone is being super obvscum
which I don't think anyone is
so yes I'll waffle on people when I'm that unsure

and yeah I definitely voted Shin under pressure
also because phase end was way sooner than I thought and having no vote that late in the day is a terrible idea as far as seeing where people stand
but I won't deny that a piece of it was because people were getting on my case about it
[spoiler=context]

skimmed the thread and there are like no new wagons and nobody is voting Euklyd with me ;_;

I'm pretty convinced off the newest posts that Paperblade is town so dunno I may just vote Shin as the least bad option if people don't vote Euklyd before I get home.

I still think Euklyd has a good chance of being scum; his latest post was like a bunch of scummy things Shin did and then ending with 'but I'm still not totally sure about this' and it's just like ??? what more do you need to be sure about it? I get that you're never like 100% sure, but generally there's no point in saying 'I'm unsure' unless you're less than like 75% percent sure they're scum. Except then he votes Shin afterwards anyways under what just looks like pressure? Also he talks about Mancer's point against Shin about Shin not voting being valid but he himself hadn't even voted until that point, so...

"euklyd why aren't you voting shin"
"wow you voted shin when people complained at you for not doing so so scummy"

mafia is hard

Shinori you clearly aren't reading the game if you think Refa is scum
makes me wonder if you missed the Shin cases as well? esp since you want a tl;dr of post-p15

also I'm like 99% sure that the comment about TIME TO COAST was a joke

am reading more and stuff

[euklyd]

started trying to read eury's wallpost but then I realized that it contains literally 36 links to click on
nope.jpg

also Marth I'm pretty sure she makes stupidly huge wallposts as scum too
all that means is that she probably hasn't been 'guised

you may has been making a joke there I'm not sure ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Bluedoom]

I'll be going off in a bit but bets are we aren't lynching anyone today because we can't decide on who's most scummy and mafia sux

[Shinori]

I'm sure it was a joke cause I glanced over Kirche's posts and stuff and it's not like he isn't doing anything.

I JUST DISLIKED IT AT THE TIME.

As for other stuff no I haven't been reading the game. That's what I'm kind of attempting to do right now. So excuse me if I missed other stuff regarding Refa. I'll try to like read that stuff.

However I read over the shin stuff I just don't logically see the scum intent from Shin. Maybe it's cause I'm biased but I also have other scum reads outside of him and like. Idk. He just doesn't fit into what I've been seeing.

Like BBM being scum.

[Bluedoom]

Well Shinori

Rein suicide'd his slot and is now a hydra with Refa. And app they're confirmed town to each other. And other stuff. And we're not lynching mancer because Refa said so.

[Refa]

^^I'd rather lynch BBM/Shin than No Lynch. Probably should make a more decisive decision, but I'm in the middle of doing other things.

Shinori you clearly aren't reading the game if you think Refa is scum

makes me wonder if you missed the Shin cases as well? esp since you want a tl;dr of post-p15

That's why I'm inclined to take him at his word when he said he hadn't really paid attention to the game besides Shin votes TBH, otherwise I'd have sheeped BBM's vote on him.

[Shinori]

I SAW THE COMBO SLOT BUT LIKE I DIDNT SEE THEY WERE CONF TOWN.

Well whatever. He wasn't like a big scum read. JUST DONT LIKE SOME OF HIS POSTS.

My like honest thoughts though. I really don't like BBM. I'll try to get a case up here in a bit.

[Bluedoom]

@Reda: Well if you want anything but a no-lynch you'll probably want to vote Shin just because he has more votes on him

[BBM]

it's mildly amazing that Eury finds something scummy about almost every single line of every single post I've made

I've kind of replied to most of the Dormio/Marth stuff from D1 so too lazy to do so again, sorry. As for Marth on D2- everybody's gone like 'MAN FLIP-FLOP SO BAD' without actually saying why it's scummy for me to do so. Why am I as scum deciding to completely drop Marth?

For kirsche, I never said that his Shin case was bad, just that I didn't really agree with it. 'Talking about a lot of people' is not a remedy for anything; it's a sign that despite having his vote stay fixed on Shin for a long time, he's still talking about others, rather than just staying on it and parking. As for why I didn't push kirsche more about not pressing Shin as hard as he could- because I clearly didn't find him scummy? I say I think he's town and that I only have one complaint, so...

the Randa thing is a PR, as I've stated multiple times. The fact that you missed me saying this despite reading my posts so closely is almost as bad as people lynching Randa without a claim in the first place.

not surprised you're casing me; people are always jealous of power. HEIL MYSELF!

[Refa]

it's mildly amazing that Eury finds something scummy about almost every single line of every single post I've made

I've kind of replied to most of the Dormio/Marth stuff from D1 so too lazy to do so again, sorry. As for Marth on D2- everybody's gone like 'MAN FLIP-FLOP SO BAD' without actually saying why it's scummy for me to do so. Why am I as scum deciding to completely drop Marth?

For kirsche, I never said that his Shin case was bad, just that I didn't really agree with it. 'Talking about a lot of people' is not a remedy for anything; it's a sign that despite having his vote stay fixed on Shin for a long time, he's still talking about others, rather than just staying on it and parking. As for why I didn't push kirsche more about not pressing Shin as hard as he could- because I clearly didn't find him scummy? I say I think he's town and that I only have one complaint, so...

not surprised you're casing me; people are always jealous of power. HEIL MYSELF!

It's not scummy for you to drop Marth (if anything, it lowers your mislynch options), it just bothered me at how easily you did it. I would've expected more consideration on that front.

Don't think talking about a lot of people really makes a votepark satisfactory; like I did the exact same thing in QProgue and you all town read me for some reason. Like I'm townreading kirsche too but that's not the reason.

[BBM]

Shinori said literally nothing about me until I voted him >_>

while it's true he's not fully paying attention if he doesn't see that Refa is town, it still doesn't make sense for him to QUOTE PEOPLE POSTING CASES ABOUT SHIN and just keep repeating I DON'T GET THE SHIN case.

too lazy for lead-ins; Randa lynch when he didn't claim was terrible, heil myself

[Shinori]

TL;DR of stuff.

Dormio's early push on Kirsche looks bad to me and I don't really feel much better about his later posts. Would lynch.

People should like, sheep Eclipse.

I don't see the Shin case and I need to go through all of the people that seemed to push him really hard cause I felt it was awful.

Marth's probably scum. A lot of text, very little actual vote hunting. I feel his posts are more likely than not just distracting people.

Also personally don't like Randa at the moment either.

I'll try to be around and actually be active tomorrow. Sorry guys.

I'll be honest. I've been playing warlords of draenor. I'm awful and I'm sorry.

##Vote: Marth

Frankly this is basically all I've said all game though BBM.

I TOLD YOU IM TRYING TO READ SHIT.

[BBM]

well I'm not townreading him for talking about a lot of people, that just is why it's not bad for him to park Shin, especially when you compare to things as bad as Randa being lynched without a claim

the thought and general tone of the posts is moreso the reason

heil myself