next version of FE7 HHM 0% growths: control enemy glitch?

[General Horace]

i'll look at chapter 23 when I have time (which unfourtunately not be until later in the week probably since this weekend's a bad one) but i'm actually starting to doubt it too, rath with 2 levels with growths is a lot stronger than without them, and I don't think mine even got strength both levels (I actually forget if he even got two levels in the first place too).

and everything dondon does is technically replicateable on cartridge (with the exception of not having growths) but it would take far longer to plan out without savestates and lua scripts (im pretty sure dondon uses them anyway) since you'd have to restart a chapter every time someone dies to a 40 or fails to crit with a killing edge or misses a 80 on a boss or something.

Edited December 6, 2014 by General Horace

[Toothache]

I'm curious to see how the CEG is used for LTC. It was used in the TASes well to some degree, but I'm sure there are better approaches, and 0% makes things more interesting strategically.

[CT075]

You can't RNG abuse normally on a cartridge game. Therefore, it's cheating to use it, just the same as the mine glitch. (Actually, more so.)

without even getting into whether or not exploiting a glitch compares to manipulating the particular implementation of a game mechanic in FSM-legal ways

this is not a slippery slope

there is little strategical value in, as explained earlier, "coming up with an elaborate method of carrying roy to henning in 5 turns, then spending 5 more turns trying to kill him while 90% of the team lollygags around". it is not possible to achieve some of these turns without rigging crits on bosses (there are probably a few places where random intermediate generics require it but i think most of those can legitimately be worked around), which is honestly substantially different than the whole perfect rng you're describing

as for my personal opinion, I feel like it might be interesting to use the CEG with restrictions - no using it on the first turn or some shit like that (the thought can obviously be refined a little), but maybe on the second or third.

[Elieson]

what i meant by this is that the gaidens themselves are a bit of a challenge, but doing them also allows me to hit benchmarks to make later maps easier. for example, chapter 19x is a bit tricky to 3-turn without sain/kentadin, but without it, there's no way raven can hit L10 for chapter 20 and promote. genesis is kind of just a complete nightmare, though, with the only benefit being the berserk staff.

i'm a bit puzzled by why some people think the choice of where i'll be using the CEG is "interesting." CoD is the super-obvious candidate for one of the mines. the other one is a tossup between unfulfilled heart (if vaida's spear can save 1 turn in final) or some other random map where it can save a turn (probably genesis or dragon's gate). living legend is also likely a reliable 3-turn with 700 gained EXP if i CEG, but that's pretty much it as far as the advantages go. i think what would be more interesting is watching the enemies suicide or otherwise handicap themselves in the strangest ways possible.

now as for chapter 23, i have a non-CEG strategy that could potentially lead to a 3-turn with some tweaking, but there's absolutely no way that i can get 700 EXP this way. i don't think i'm even close.

TBH I'm more interested to see how you utilize it to maximize the 700 EXP, since you can't just drop enemy weapons and prey on them for three turns with CEG.

I also have no idea how the US can really help you with mitigating turns. Heath!WL with 20AS, for instance, strikes me as a pretty threatening unit for achieving benchmarks where other fliers may simply have lacked the power or speed to do so.

Also, the US gives +17 HP, which I've noticed in past runs to sort of coerce the AI into attacking other units. I'm not sure if the defense modifiers matter, but the flat HP boost seems may give you some better AI manipulation for simply having it equipped. This also makes me wonder if having a unit equipped with US that's carrying X in their saddlebags may be able to avoid seeing combat (and have it drawn to other units, as if Fiora has it equipped with someone in her saddlebags, she's got 6+9 AS and 12 Def, making her more tanky than Heath instead of far less tanky) might change how the AI operates.

That's where most of my intrigue lies; how do bonuses to HP and other stats while it's equipped handle AI combat shenanigans.

[dondon151]

i think you're overestimating how useful vaida's spear would be. after obtaining it, we have:

- chapter 27K, which requires 10 turns to recruit harken anyway

- chapter 28, which is fixed at 15 turns

- chapter 28x, which i can already 4-turn but can't 3-turn without greater rescue range on pent

- chapter 29, which vaida's spear may be marginally useful on

- chapter 30, which i definitely don't need vaida's spear for

- chapter 31, which is fixed at 11 turns

- chapter 32, where vaida's spear may be useful, but the brave lance is better at killing limstella

- chapter 32x, no spear required

- final, which i may be able to 3-turn instead of 4-turn with vaida's spear, but i'm not sure about this one at all

i don't expect the CEG to be able to save more than 1 turn in most circumstances. if i can save the 1 turn in final, then vaida's spear is already worth it, but don't expect it to come in useful outside of maybe cog.

now as for chapter 23, that would probably just involve trying to get enemies to suicide onto rath or something when they would rather target marcus or hawkeye.

Edited December 7, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

the closest i could get to 700 in chapter 23 was 672 and that was with rigging raven hand axe misses so heath could kill some mages on the enemy phase, and with Heath getting both bosskills

I think it is possible, but probably too reliant on Heath dodging a bunch of mages and archers or something lame. It also breaks your Killing edge too, which might be something you need for genesis, I'm not sure.

and for reference, I deployed Raven/Heath/Fiora/Canas/Priscilla/Rath/Ninian. Maybe deploying someone other than Canas could get slightly more exp

EDIT: Hilariously enough Legault might be able to do Raven's job and Hector can lure over a mage or something stupid

Edited December 9, 2014 by General Horace

[Refa]

Maybe Serra would work? I dunno what you're doing with Canas but they should have similar staff ranks anyways.

[General Horace]

Canas can orko archers and has pretty good movement, there's a stupid archer that sucks at moving through the sand that's kinda of out of the way. Serra would only add three torch uses since she only has C Staves and can't use Physic.

Barriered Fiora takes like no damage from mages, so she might be able to weaken them for Heath as well. I'm actually starting to think it's possible again.

EDIT: fuck the longbow archer he ruins everything always

Edited December 9, 2014 by General Horace

[Lord Raven]

the closest i could get to 700 in chapter 23 was 672 and that was with rigging raven hand axe misses so heath could kill some mages on the enemy phase, and with Heath getting both bosskills

I'm a team player

[Psych]

keep in mind that i only get 2 mines because the third one from chapter 17 is impossible to get in an LTC

couldn't you use the chapter 13 mine on chapter 17 to get the third mine? admittedly this wastes the chapter 13 mine but...

[Elieson]

That might help, in moving bernard off the throne to allow a faster seize?

[dondon151]

horace i also need the body ring

i've always sent canas to the southwest with a ninis grace boost on the first turn. he can ORKO steel lance wyverns if they don't spawn with too much HP/res.

That might help, in moving bernard off the throne to allow a faster seize?

i already said that the door to the NPC room doesn't open until before turn 7. how do the NPCs suicide if no one can attack them? i certainly can't get someone there to unlock the door beforehand because there are too many enemies in the way that i can't kill quickly enough.

Edited December 9, 2014 by dondon151

[Psych]

are the 2-3 turns spent waiting for the soldiers to die made up by using that mine somewhere else in the game

is what you'd have to ask yourself

[Elieson]

i already said that the door to the NPC room doesn't open until before turn 7. how do the NPCs suicide if no one can attack them? i certainly can't get someone there to unlock the door beforehand because there are too many enemies in the way that i can't kill quickly enough.

For whatever reason i didn't doublecheck and thought the npcs were at the top of the cell not the bottom, oops

[General Horace]

horace i also need the body ring

i've always sent canas to the southwest with a ninis grace boost on the first turn. he can ORKO steel lance wyverns if they don't spawn with too much HP/res.

yeah me too, I never bothered restarting for stats so the wyverns always were left with 2hp for me.

(who needs the body ring btw)

But yeah I don't think it's possible unless you do something dumb like lure both bosses with Axereaver!Heath or Fiora (they double both of them) on turn 1 and then they get their support and their hit and crit increases and its scary shit.

Edited December 9, 2014 by General Horace

[dondon151]

isadora needs the body ring

EDIT: what's your plan for killing jasmine? i've been baiting him to move with iron sword fiora on turn 2 so that hawkeye can melee on turn 3.

Edited December 9, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

On one of my runs, he attacked Raven from 1 Range with the steel axe, and he doubled with the killing edge; hit + crit then Heath finished and Raven killed the stupid longbow archer the next turn.

Not gonna lie I forgot Falcoknights could use swords.

I don't really know what caused him to attack Raven at 1 range tho, he was full health. Maybe it's related to weapon uses? There were only 2 uses left.

[dondon151]

I don't really know what caused him to attack Raven at 1 range tho, he was full health. Maybe it's related to weapon uses? There were only 2 uses left.

if a target would break his weapon during combat, the AI treats the target as if he couldn't counter at all. so since a steel axe attack and a hand axe attack are both considered uncountered, the steel axe is preferred because it does more damage.

i think if we can somehow bring in heath, rath, and legault while maintaining a 3-turn clear, then 700 EXP should be a gimme. did you deploy priscilla for physic? is a staff user really necessary at all?

another random thought i had is that if we held back the turn 1 advance, the longbow archer would go left instead of right, and pent might pick him off on turn 3 other phase.

EDIT: the archer thought isn't going to work, because i think the game ranks faraway targets based on walking distance rather than walking + attacking distance.

Edited December 10, 2014 by dondon151

[General Horace]

Well that explains it then.

Regardless even with Heath netting the bosskill its still only a three turn without 700 exp, and Heath gets about 2.5 levels and Rath gets 1.5.

[kirbymastah]

IMO goal is to beat the game in the lowest turn count possible with 0% growths. Therefore use enemy control glitch if it shaves turns. Simple as that. As a speedrunner, I kinda have the mindset of "do whatever you can to beat the game as quickly as possible within the game's limits" and I feel that should be the same here: "beat the game with the lowest turn count possible within the game's limits". It's not like the ECG is completely gamebreaking as it's only useful on a few chapters, and it's limited (only one turn, limited mines, etc).

Regardless of whichever you decide, I'm looking forward to it though :)

EDIT: Also didn't you already do a FE7 HHM 0% LTC, without glitches? If so, I'd be further in support of using ECG since it'd make it even more significantly different and lower turn count too :P

Edited December 9, 2014 by kirbymastah

[Balcerzak]

I have a question for people voting no: are you okay with RNG abuse? If so, why is one okay and the other isn't? Both are abusive and take advantage of the game in ways the player isn't meant to.

For the second poll question, I voted 4-turn because I think it makes a more complete run to go to all possible maps.

RNG abuse doesn't involve resetting the game and interrupting the flow of a session.

[kirbymastah]

RNG abuse doesn't involve resetting the game and interrupting the flow of a session.

Incorrect, it does involve resetting to get the set RNG seed before the start of each chapter ;P You just don't see it in the videos since each chapter starts from a reset

#nitpicky

[riariadne]

Incorrect, it does involve resetting to get the set RNG seed before the start of each chapter ;P You just don't see it in the videos since each chapter starts from a reset

#nitpicky

This checks the first part but it doesn't interrupt anything from a viewer's perspective. I don't necessarily care about that, but if it is one of his problems with it then it's certainly a true statement.

I voted no, mostly because I like having what feels like a similar standard across all the 0% runs. It wasn't in the previous one, so a feeling of consistency is nice. I don't think it adds very much to it, either. RNG abuse is basically required for these to be at all competitive/interesting- nobody really wants to see things drag on more than is really necessary because of random misses or such, I think. The mine glitch basically doesn't come up for a while, and what does it really add of value? It changes a few chapters, and dondon said it isn't to a particularly significant amount either.

[dondon151]

EDIT: Also didn't you already do a FE7 HHM 0% LTC, without glitches? If so, I'd be further in support of using ECG since it'd make it even more significantly different and lower turn count too :P

that run wasn't LTC by any standard of "L."

as an example of a trick that interrupts the flow of a session, there's the desert item trick. i do think consistency is important, and for those of you saying that the CEG should be used because its impact is small, the logic works the other way, too.

Edited December 9, 2014 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

I feel like the line is between RNG abuse and mine glitch. The reason I experience it that way is that if this game had a proper RNG, you would be able to reset for favorable outcomes as long as you had infinite time on your hands. Alternatively you could just start every chapter by burning one more RN than you did last chapter and get "random" (different) results. However, the Mine Glitch crosses the boundaries of what is possible. No matter how often you retry a chapter, enemies will never trade weapons and rescue each other.

This definition also satisfies the use of the desert item trick, which is just another form of RNG manipulation that saves time.