HM Gonzales

[dondon151]

i'm gonna call bullshit on that, there is no way that you never use a javelin, hand axe, halberd, or hammer in this game.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dondon151

[Shadow Mir]

i'm gonna call bullshit on that, there is no way that you never use a javelin, hand axe, halberd, or hammer in this game.

But of course you would. Thing is, I'd definitely never use a hammer in this game, given that armorslayers exist, and are more effective at killing the crap I'd want to use a hammer on despite WTD. As for javelins and hand axes... ehhh. I'd rather just kill out any ranged fighters on player phase and let the rest crash against me on enemy phase than use a ranged weapon and likely not be able to kill much, if at all because of accuracy and power issues.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[dondon151]

i don't think you even addressed my statement, there are specific spots in the game where sub-55 hit weapons are very good and i'm almost certain that you're being hyperbolic rather than truthful.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dondon151

[momogeek2141]

IMO, hammers are good for clearing out the Knights in places like Ostia that get in your way. The only time hammers suck are when they are played against bosses, where the armorslayer is much better.

[BBM]

The reason Gonzales generally just uses Killer Axes is because his very high STR ensures that he can pretty much OHKO most generic enemies with a crit, and his good speed means he's getting two shots at it most of the time. But there are some enemies he doesn't double naturally and although I haven't done the math, attacking something twice at 30 crit is probably going to do more damage than attacking someone once with 60 crit (and 10 more hit).

Also your hit argument doesn't even take into account that if Gonzales is using a Killer or Brave and not a Swordreaver, he's probably fighting a lance enemy and he doesn't really have trouble hitting those at all after promotion bonuses and WTA. Axe enemies in number are pretty rare after the Western Isles (just the random Brigand here and there mostly).

I don't think anybody will argue that the Killer Axe is better more than 90% of the time and can be bought in bulk for fairly cheap, whereas the Brave Axe only has 30 uses unless you Hammerne it (lol). But neither it nor Gonzales are as useless as you make them out to be. Have you actually ever used Gonzales? His combat parameters are monstrous when you play at a pace where he can keep up.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BBM

[General Horace]

to be fair the swordreavers (and reaver weapons in general are extremely shitty in fe6)

but the brave axe probably has decent enough hit against wyverns and stuff, but like you said you can mass buy killers so why bother?

EDIT: slightly misread what you said but reavers are still shitty

Edited January 16, 2015 by General Horace

[Vorena]

Swordreaver versus a killer axe. C rank for both. Swordreaver is 2 more weight. Same base damage. Reaver has 5 less accuracy. Different functions: One for critical and the other for hitting things you might not normally hit. Plus, the other reaver weapons are exactly the same comparison to this other than the other weapons do not lose accuracy (sword has same weight).

How exactly is a swordreaver shitty? What more do you want from it? For an axe locked unit it gives them other things to try killing that they would probably not bother trying due to accuracy issues. The accuracy gain after weapon triangle on the swordreaver is only +5%, but 5% display can make a difference as much as 10% true hit. Oh, and the damage is not that bad compared to say an iron weapon.

[Irysa]

The hammer is not all that inaccurate vs the really slow knights when you use a decently high skill unit like Marcus in the earlygame. As is the handaxe vs loldiers. (hero!dieck handaxeing javelin cavs mvp)

Edited January 16, 2015 by Irysa

[Box]

HM Gonzales seems pretty good to me. Bad hit rates? Whatever man. He's got a 50% speed growth and basically no penalties ever so I find the enemy is the one with the hard time hitting.

So I did some calcs. They were actually pretty tricky so I'm going to provide the math since I may have made a mistake (I made a few along the way). They're based on the scenario where you either need two hits or a crit when you're doubling an opponent. I did a 65 displayed hit and 75 displayed hit for Iron, Killer, and Brave and I think it shows Brave is considerably more reliable.

Killer Low Hit (65hit/55crit) : 77%

Iron Low Hit (65hit/25crit) : 66%

Brave Low Hit (55hit/25crit) : 85%

Killer High Hit (75hit/55crit) : 89%

Iron High Hit (75hit/25crit) : 82%

Brave High Hit (65hit/25crit) : 96%

> # Killer low hit
> hit = 0.65
> crit = 0.55
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> success = truehit*crit + truehit*nocrit*truehit + miss*truehit*crit
> success
[1] 0.7734975
> 
> # Iron low hit
> hit = 0.65
> crit = 0.25
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> success = truehit*crit + truehit*nocrit*truehit + miss*truehit*crit
> success
[1] 0.6625125
> 
> # Brave low hit
> hit = 0.55
> crit = 0.25
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> successcrit = truehit*crit + miss*truehit*crit + miss*miss*truehit*crit + miss*miss*miss*truehit*crit
> successnocrit = truehit*nocrit*truehit + 2 * truehit*nocrit*truehit*miss + 3 * truehit*nocrit*truehit*miss*miss
> success = successcrit + successnocrit
> success
[1] 0.854518
> 
> # Killer high hit
> hit = 0.75
> crit = 0.55
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> success = truehit*crit + truehit*nocrit*truehit + miss*truehit*crit
> success
[1] 0.8859375
> 
> # Iron high hit
> hit = 0.75
> crit = 0.25
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> success = truehit*crit + truehit*nocrit*truehit + miss*truehit*crit
> success
[1] 0.8203125
> 
> # Brave high hit
> hit = 0.65
> crit = 0.25
> truehit = 1-2*(1-hit)^2
> miss = 1 - truehit
> nocrit = 1 - crit
> successcrit = truehit*crit + miss*truehit*crit + miss*miss*truehit*crit + miss*miss*miss*truehit*crit
> successnocrit = truehit*nocrit*truehit + 2 * truehit*nocrit*truehit*miss + 3 * truehit*nocrit*truehit*miss*miss
> success = successcrit + successnocrit
> success
[1] 0.9630876

Edited January 16, 2015 by Box

[MacLovin]

don't forget the skill books that aren't heavily contested. [Except by maybe Lott, a screwed Alan, Treck, and maybe Geese. But the latter 2 are mediocre and Alan will most likely not ever need them.]

[Vorena]

There is one easily obtained Skill Book in all of FE6. The other is only in 18A and the rest are not until chapter 21 in the secret shop which you have to buy. So... I feel this one secret book is contested among anyone who wants to be more effective with a javelin rather than horde it for a few chapters before gonzales appears.

[Gradivus.]

I feel like 2 points of hits are such a slight addition that its not worth discussing who will go to the shop and sell it

[Shadow Mir]

i don't think you even addressed my statement, there are specific spots in the game where sub-55 hit weapons are very good and i'm almost certain that you're being hyperbolic rather than truthful.

Ehh. Chalk it up to playstyle differences. I mean, sure, there are instances where such weapons can be useful, but honestly, even if such a situation cropped up, I'd personally find another way around it rather than risk it.

The reason Gonzales generally just uses Killer Axes is because his very high STR ensures that he can pretty much OHKO most generic enemies with a crit, and his good speed means he's getting two shots at it most of the time. But there are some enemies he doesn't double naturally and although I haven't done the math, attacking something twice at 30 crit is probably going to do more damage than attacking someone once with 60 crit (and 10 more hit).

Also your hit argument doesn't even take into account that if Gonzales is using a Killer or Brave and not a Swordreaver, he's probably fighting a lance enemy and he doesn't really have trouble hitting those at all after promotion bonuses and WTA. Axe enemies in number are pretty rare after the Western Isles (just the random Brigand here and there mostly).

I don't think anybody will argue that the Killer Axe is better more than 90% of the time and can be bought in bulk for fairly cheap, whereas the Brave Axe only has 30 uses unless you Hammerne it (lol). But neither it nor Gonzales are as useless as you make them out to be. Have you actually ever used Gonzales? His combat parameters are monstrous when you play at a pace where he can keep up.

First part: Personally, I'd rather try to have 3 numbers go in my favor than 4.

Second part: Admittedly, he won't do bad against lancers. That being said...The most common lancers are cavs, which lose a bunch of AS from steel lances, and knights, which are lol. I'd honestly be more worried about enemy swordies than lancers.

As to whether I've ever used Gonzales: No. I'm not as axe nazi as Glac is, but it's still more than enough for me to ignore axe mainers entirely, as far as this game goes.

[BBM]

But Gonzales only needs 2 numbers to go in his favour most of the time; if he has 4 numbers to work with rather than 3, that gives him more of a chance to get it to work?

Also cavs have a lot of HP so they're not that easy to ORKO without effective weaponry, but I think you're forgetting a very important lance-using enemy- wyverns? As someone (Horace?) said earlier, Gonzales is one of the best options for taking on large numbers of them on EP. He gets WTA, can go on mountains and stuff for extra terrain avoid, and is pretty bulky to boot, giving him great survivability to go with his great combat. Bow users can't EP and other than a trained Nosferatu user I wouldn't trust a magical unit to survive.

And the fact that you're dismissing Gonzales without having ever used him or any axe-users at all is pretty silly tbh.

If you're using Gonzales, giving him Secret Books is a good investment, but tbf in FE6 because hit rates are shaky, pretty much anyone who's not a myrm or merc would want one. Percival's skill is probably his worst stat for example.

Edited January 16, 2015 by BBM

[Shadow Mir]

But Gonzales only needs 2 numbers to go in his favour most of the time; if he has 4 numbers to work with rather than 3, that gives him more of a chance to get it to work?

Also cavs have a lot of HP so they're not that easy to ORKO without effective weaponry, but I think you're forgetting a very important lance-using enemy- wyverns? As someone (Horace?) said earlier, Gonzales is one of the best options for taking on large numbers of them on EP. He gets WTA, can go on mountains and stuff for extra terrain avoid, and is pretty bulky to boot, giving him great survivability to go with his great combat. Bow users can't EP and other than a trained Nosferatu user I wouldn't trust a magical unit to survive the phase.

First part: I dunno... Most of what he couldn't double naturally are the crap he'd probably want to leave to someone else.

Second part: Guilty as charged. However, outside of chapter 21, I don't remember when you see that many wyverns, so I left them out.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Second part: Guilty as charged. However, outside of chapter 21, I don't remember when you see that many wyverns, so I left them out.

Chapter 23 has lots of them too. However no reinforcements.

[Gradivus.]

I just looked up on the main site, there are two secret books before the secret shop on 21 (and one is ilia route only). I'd personally sell them, and I think we shouldn't nitpick about how relevant 4 Hit is. Also, C23 has many wyvern riders too, though no reinforcements. ninja'd Also, I recall rescue-dropping Lugh onto a C21 mountain and he perfectly managed to dodgetank all boss area-triggered reinforcements, just saying. Percival with axes equipped managed to do it on a forest tile or mountain tile too. I personally haven't used Gonzo yet, but I might do so as I play HM atm, though I can't really judge how good he is atm.

Edited January 16, 2015 by Gradivus.

[dondon151]

chapters 13 and 15 have a ton of cavs, too

levant has a habit of making declarative statements based on hearsay or personal experience, and so he's very adamant and frequently wrong about things.

[Vorena]

chapters 13 and 15 have a ton of cavs, too

levant has a habit of making declarative statements based on hearsay or personal experience, and so he's very adamant and frequently wrong about things.

Personal experience is completely fine. It is when you make the wrong conclusions from personal experience is when things go awry. Though the same is said for going purely based off theory as well. I think you recognize the advantage of combining both rather than simply using one by itself.

First part: I dunno... Most of what he couldn't double naturally are the crap he'd probably want to leave to someone else.

Second part: Guilty as charged. However, outside of chapter 21, I don't remember when you see that many wyverns, so I left them out.

Chapter 23, 21, 19(sacae), 19(ilia) more for all the lance users, 18(ilia) more flying things, 18 (sacae), 14, and 13. Are the more notable chapters with a larger presence of wyvern riders and lords with reinforcements and deployed units along with potential chapters which seem Gonzales friendly. Including the other chapters there is always some use for him to be found.

[dogs die in hot cars]

Chapter 21 alone is enough to justify his existence if you ever plan to use him. His class lets him walk ontop of mountains and with his good speed and OK luck growth, he can get to a point where wyvern knights and lords actually have severe difficulty hitting him with their 55% and 65% hit rate weapons. This makes him pretty good at pulling units if you're struggling with hard mode. If you're not using mountains, he's one of the few units that can eat more than one wyvern lord silver lance hit.

That's ignoring any other chapter where units use the infamously heavy and inaccurate steel lance. On the enemy phase, he has no trouble doubling and, from what I can remember, hitting them fairly reliably. And unlike most other units in the game, he can eat a few hits if they ever connect.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dogs die in hot cars

[Carmine Sword]

Eh, Niime or Garret can do the whole bait wyverns on a mountain thing in Chapter 21 without needing any training or a promotion item.

[dogs die in hot cars]

I agree but by that stage you'd probably have a pretty good Gonzales.

The point I was kind of making (poorly) is that he's perfect for slower players. Training him isn't really a problem since he doesn't get weighed down by many weapons, steel weapon enemies immediately after his recruitment chapter are weighed down enough that they're quite easy to double, he hits hard enough that its easy to get killing blows, and he's hardy enough that you don't really have to baby him.

His promotion bonuses also give him exactly what he wants, especially in the damage and hit rate department. Yeah he has to fight people for a Hero's Crest but there's three available before Chapter 17 and, assuming two are going to Dieck and Rutger, I don't think his competition for the third promotion item is all that strong.

Now if we're talking about a faster playthrough with an emphasis on low turn counts, he's not a particularly good option since large chunk of your units can't help rescue train him.

Edited January 16, 2015 by dogs die in hot cars

[Carmine Sword]

Gonzales' promotion item is also competing with Fir an extra pair of boots.

And Chapter 16 or 17 is kind of late to be promoting. Although, I promote as early as possible in this game, so if you're waiting until reaching level 20 to promote then promoting that late might make more sense.

[Yojinbo]

Promoting Gonzales in Chapter 16 is kinda late but acceptable if you're going to Ilia. If you actually wanna use Gonzo in Sacae though you may have to consider not promoting Dieck and ditch him in favor of Echidna so you can use the Ch. 11 Hero Crest. Still not a very good option imo but Gonzales really blows if you don't go to Ilia.

[Carmine Sword]

Why would you promote Gonzales over Dieck if you're going to Sacae?