Resetless Lunatic+ Run COMPLETED (Deathless) (With Complete Guide)

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

All right, updated the main post to include links to the third run and a listing for our new heroine, 3. She's probably had the best luck of my deathless runs thus far. Seriously, her Mag got so high that I saved enough money to not have to sell the Levin Sword, which made the later game so much safer. On top of that, I finished at 11:50:19 on the timer, which means I saved roughly 85 minutes over my last deathless run. o.O

Definitely feeling optimistic about my ability to bring the time down even more in the future.

Anyway, here's the links for the third run for convenience: Part 1 - Part 2 - Part 3 - Part 4

[AnUnculturedLittlePotato]

I love how 3, with everything of her character being at 3, was the third deathless run. It's like the RNGoddess of the world reached out and made that happen.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

So, I took Awakening with me on vacation and stumbled on something that might help with having an answer to the triple melee Counter in the left side group of C5. At least, it's situationally good enough to make me consider going against that left side, even with that unfavourable combination, instead of the two coming down from the top, in about half the situations. I'll have to do more testing, but it should be doable in situations where the top two enemies, plus the lowest Barb of the left side group aren't toting too much PavGis+.

Anyway, the idea started out as using Lon'qu with Vaike behind him in the lower-left woods as a potential damage soak against non-Luna+ in order to preserve Vaike's HP for damage soaking against Wyvs or Barbs in less favourable terrain. At one point, I forgot to unequip Lon'qu and the fact that he ended up surviving got me to re-examine the stats. Basically, with another character hanging out to his right (safe tile from the enemies coming from above), the terrain and keeping a sword equipped, Lon'qu can push the enemy Barb's displayed hit down to either 22 (no Gamble) or 17 (Gamble). This allows him to fairly reliably attack a Counter enemy and take the damage back without dying. With an Iron Sword and Vaike's boost, he does 12 damage, which will bring the Barb down to 26. With the +4mt Flux, Robin only needs 17 15 Mag to be at a point where she can finish him off without fear of taking Counter damage. It's well below the high end of the expected average, meaning that it shouldn't be especially unreasonable to hope to have it. Naturally, this fails if the Barb has Hawkeye, since I'm relying on Lon'qu's dodging, but that specific combination has pretty low odds, especially since it needs to show up beside Counter on two other specific enemies. It's also possible for Robin to still die if, say, the DM has Hawkeye-Luna+ and the Myrm has Counter-Luna+ (since I'd gib the upper Counter Barb), but that's even rarer, so I'll worry about that if I encounter it.

If I allow Lon'qu to hang on to the Killing Edge, he'll do 16 damage, which gives even more leeway. There's also the added bonus of him having listed crit, so he might just insta-gib the Barb. This fails if the Barb has Counter-Pavise+, but that's another pretty specific combination. With only 6 damage from the Iron Sword, 8 damage from the Killing Edge and the chance of insta-gibbing himself via Countered crit, I'd want to avoid doing that here.

Assuming no Hawkeye or Pavise+ on that Barb, plus no crit from Lon'qu, what the strat would hope to accomplish is to kill the left side's top Barb, DM and Myrm. This leaves an injured Barb from the left and the Barb and Myrm from the top, one of which is also ijnured. The assumption here is Ricken chips one before getting Rescued and Sumia lures away the DM. This is where things get a bit fuzzy and I need more testing. It's possible to dogpile them all (with some less-than-optimal hit rates, but they're still better than trying to face tank multiple Counter) when they don't have tanking skills, but I need to see how far I can push my luck with different combinations to see how niche (or not niche) the strat is. I also need to see if I can find ways to let Robin get away with attacking and then getting healed, or using the Elixir while in range of the remaining enemies. This might be a more effective way of dealing with the tanking skills.

Anyway, with luck, this will be the final piece to get the whole flow-chart-like strategy where I want it. Then I just have to get the whole mess sorted into a comprehensible guide. >.>

BTW, for those looking for runs, something came up with this upcoming Saturday, so I won't be able to do a run on Friday (Aug 14). With more upcoming vacation, this puts my next run on Sep 4. I guess in the very least, I should hopefully have the new strat fully explored by then. I will, however, get in one more Yeswi session before I'm off. It's just vanilla, but some of the run has actually bordered on Lunatic+-level difficulty, since I decided to get the kids super early and am apparently (by vote) running an army of swords. <.<

EDIT: Correction to Mag requirement because I forgot weapon ranks. :I

Edited August 11, 2015 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[AardvarkPepper]

Started playing through using walkthrough instructions. Ran into some things, got some questions

1. Things like nstructions in Chapter 2 lead with "In Chapter 1, trade Robin’s Bronze Sword to Fred before the map ends." But that would mean you'd have to go back and redo Chapter 1 (if you do everything listed in the guide for Ch 1, then discover part of what you were supposed to do is in the instructions for Ch 2 - that's sort of weird, you know?). Best put stuff that has to be done in Ch 1 in Ch 1 instructions, yes? Also, a few more step by step instructions regarding what needs to be done and what doesn't need to be done, especially where the guides just sort of assume the player is going to know what to do. 'Cos sometimes they don't. Like me. XXDDD Assume the reader has functioning thumbs, but not much more, I think might be best. >.>

2. Following the guide step by step left me with 2 uses of Thunder at the beginning of Chapter 3: Warrior Realm. Now yes, I could switch off to Miriel and get some things done, but - really, Thunder with 4-5 uses makes the beginning part *way* easier.

Anyhoo trying to figure out Ch 3. Guide's basically "here's how to kill 2 guys on left fast, then things" but I get killed with the things. >.> Like if the Archers have Pavise or Aegis so I can't take them down so fast, or if the Knight on the other side of the door has Counter or things - like yeah, I can handle one thing or the other thing, but usually the enemies from the right side catch up before I can get everyone safely into the choke point, then someone's left exposed then killed. I'll get it eventually >.>

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yeah, sorry, some of that requires revision. Part of the reason that the strategy of giving Fred the Bronze Sword is neglected is that it's also a very small tweak. Fred has a pretty low chance to Dual Strike there and I've come to realize that Robin might want to hang on to it to conserve Thunder uses in the event that she Dual Strikes for Virion (even if it's just chip experience that is more of a long-term investment). Another thing about it is that she'd also rather keep the sword for if the non-Interceptor strat is used, as it both conserves Thunder and is more likely to hit if she assist Stahl. This makes the next turn's Thunder attacks scoring a kill more reliable. In a way, it really is a judgment thing that can't truly be called until C2 actually starts, so it's a bit of a gambit. I should probably make a note for it, anyway, though, so that anyone looking to use the Interceptor strat as their go-to can minmax it at the end of C1.

Would you mind being a bit more specific on what you think needs more step-by-step? A lot of the time, when I stop doing step-by-step, it's because the AI movements have too many random permutations to really allow for anything that specific. Beyond C1, much of the time, I can give 2-3-turns openers, then general advice to help you deal with the fact that you're going to have to be YOLO-ing a bit in order to effectively respond to enemy movement.

And yes, having more Thunder uses is definitely helpful. Having 2 durability left is basically the bare minimum to keep several strategies open. How much you actually have available by the end actually depends a lot on how Robin's Mag grows. To a point, the higher it gets in the early stages, the more uses of Thunder you'll bring to the table.

My C3 guide is a supplement to Interceptor's strat. He's actually got a really nice step-by-step arrangement that uses most of the team to take down all of the enemies on the left over two turns. The only thing about that is that it assumes everything is going to hit, so one miss screws everyone over. It shouldn't be a big deal if you're doing a standard Lunatic+ run, though, since you can just reset. Anyway, what my musings are there to help deal with the cases where the map doesn't meet Interceptor's requirements. I can't really step-by-step the whole thing because there's too many scenarios to cover. Basically, the main problems you're going to run into is if the Soldier has Counter and/or Luna+ and the closest Archer has Luna+. This means that Robin risks dying if she has to tank (depending on stat ups) and, even worse, might not even be allow to counterattack. Ideally, you want to try to position things so that Fred fights the things with Aegis+ and Robin, the things with Pavise+ (using the Javelin and Fire, respectively). This isn't always possible, though, so you might just have to take the damage where you can get it. It's worth noting that Fred can attack the closest Archer without getting in range of the Knight. So he can possibly help the rest of the team weaken both Archers during the first turn (the second will fight him on EP), while also avoiding a Counter Knight. If you can severely damage or kill the Archers and Soldier, you should be golden, even if the Knight is entirely unharmed with Counter and Aegis+. Miriel/Sumia and Robin/Chrom should still collectively be able to put on some serious hurt, even through Aegis+. There's a decent change that Chrom will Dual Strike for the kill too. If not, Fred might be able to clean up with the Silver Lance. Again, there's just so many permutations that the best I can do there is general advice to reduce the risk of the YOLO.

Oh, and, in dealing with the Knight on the other side of the door, make sure that you have things set up so you can open the door and have Robin run in to get an attack in (I usually have Sumia on Door Key usage duty). Even if the Knight has Counter, getting hit twice by Fire should weaken him enough that even if Chrom is feeling lazy (make sure he has the Rapier equipped), Robin's counterattack should kill him and negate Counter. If you can't 3HKO, that means you got screwed pretty badly on Mag and pretty much have to bank on Chrom helping; or the Knight has Aegis+. Robin should /hopefully/ be able to tank a hit (non-Luna+, since the Knight needs both Aegis+ and Counter to make this an issue) and Aegis+-reduced Counter backlash and live.

As far as getting everyone into the choke point, consider separating on turns where the scrubs don't have to fight in order to gain another space in movement. If you do a Switch->Separate to drop a cavalry unit forward, you may even get more movement out of it. This also allows stragglers to pair onto the forward-most units (no one said the scrubs have to all stay with the same partner). If worst comes to worst, have an unequipped Fred (or Javelin-equipped, if the closest advancing melee dont' have Counter) hang back a bit to delay them a turn. It'll cost more healing items in the end, but he can really mess up enemy movement that way. This is because the standard AI always needs attack things in range, which causes them to use less than their full movement. Since the enemies are so bunched up, this also causes the forwardmost enemies to body block their own allies. This will only buy you one, maybe two, turns, if you're really, really lucky with Luna+ distribution, though, so don't get too comfortable.

Anyway, if you have more questions, feel free to throw them at me. I've been a bit distracted lately, so my answer likely won't be immediate, but I should still be able to get back to you within a day or two.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Let's see if I can get back on that horse after a long break: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi

[aven555]

I was wondering if someone ever completed lunatic + without spotpass and dlc... This is even more awesome:). Great job!

I'm on my way of completing my first playthrough at lunatic + without spotpass/dlc/renown...but tons of reset.

Looking foward seeing you stream another attempt.

Edited September 8, 2015 by aven555

[Czar_Yoshi]

Cht.5 Lon'qu strats: what about giving him Sumia, a Def tonic (only if no Counter and no Luna+) and the Iron Sword? He should still survive barring either a Luna+ hit or a hit with Counter, but should double for 8+8 which is within his HP and gives a little more leeway for Robin's Mag. He'll also have around 6 more Avo, and can leave Chrom the KE. I didn't test this but looking at the enemy data it should work.

Don't remember if Sumia is needed elsewhere though.

[Vascela]

Cht.5 Lon'qu strats: what about giving him Sumia, a Def tonic (only if no Counter and no Luna+) and the Iron Sword? He should still survive barring either a Luna+ hit or a hit with Counter, but should double for 8+8 which is within his HP and gives a little more leeway for Robin's Mag. He'll also have around 6 more Avo, and can leave Chrom the KE. I didn't test this but looking at the enemy data it should work.

Don't remember if Sumia is needed elsewhere though.

Does this mean completely forgo the enemy manipulation from Sumia?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Depends whether or not that's more costly than eating a Counter from the Barb not taking enough damage.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

In the very least, it could be used in strats where Robin goes north first. I think I need to do some hard number testing with that, though. I was messing around fighting different iterations and there were some points where the Barb would ignore Lon'qu to go after Robin (without actually being able to kill her normally). After messing around some more, I got the behaviour down to consistently doing what I wanted it, but the manipulation is really limited as a result.

Scenario 1: Robin/Chrom in the open to kill a Counter enemy (priority on the Myrm). Lon'qu/Vaike in the Woods. This results in Lon'qu having 7 less Def (the test save I was using requires Robin to get Def on level up for this, but 6 less wouldn't make a difference in the outcome), but 18 more Avoid than Robin. The Barb will always go for Robin.

Scenario 2: Robin/Chrom in the Woods in range of all four western enemies. Lon'qu/Vaike in the Woods. This results in Lon'qu having 7 less Def (Robin gets no Def level up prior to engaging here) and 8 more Avoidthan Robin. The Barb will always target Lon'qu.

Scenario 3: Robin/Chrom in the open to kill a Counter enemy (priority on the Myrm). Lon'qu solo in the Woods. This results in Lon'qu having 9 less Def and 2 less Avoid than Robin. The Barb sees a possible kill in Lon'qu at 32 or 27 (Gamble) listed Hit, so will always go for him. This is the scenario that Sumia might be able to supplement best, since it'd give Lon'qu a bunch more Avoid without boosting his Def. Since the Barb should still see a possible kill (despite garbage Hit), he should still go for Lon'qu. Unfortunately, this is also the scenario where I'd want Sumia distracting the northern Dark Mage.

Edited September 9, 2015 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Lucina's Husband]

I just wanted to say thank you for your guide. Between that and Interceptor's, I was able to clear Lunatic+ Classic with a traditional steup as well as Lunatic+ Casual and Lunatic Classic with my preferred, -Defense Flaws. You've taken what might've been days and days of painful resetting and turned them into a couple hours.

[aven555]

What's the next challenge? No renown items permitted? :)

[Czar_Yoshi]

The next challenge is to bring the time down. Currently the runs are 12+ hour monstrosities which isn't very nice for the runner or the viewers, and we know there's potentially a lot of time that can be saved.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

I just wanted to say thank you for your guide. Between that and Interceptor's, I was able to clear Lunatic+ Classic with a traditional steup as well as Lunatic+ Casual and Lunatic Classic with my preferred, -Defense Flaws. You've taken what might've been days and days of painful resetting and turned them into a couple hours.

I'm just happy to see other people get use out of my research. Glad to hear you got through your runs too.

What's the next challenge? No renown items permitted? :)

I don't really see this happening. While theoretically possible, removing that little bit of Renown that I do use mostly just adds extra RNG to the run.

The next challenge is to bring the time down. Currently the runs are 12+ hour monstrosities which isn't very nice for the runner or the viewers, and we know there's potentially a lot of time that can be saved.

Hey, that last one was sub-12! >.>

In all seriousness, the goal is, indeed to bring the time down. I'm currently gunning for sub-10, but given that my first run that got past C5 that failed was probably looking at finishing at 7 hours with deaths, I'm thinking 8 without deaths is likely possible. On a strictly mechanical level, it could probably even go lower than that, but I would have to be very, very comfortable with the run to the point where I could routinely skip enemy phases and make all player phase moves with little or no downtime. Getting to that point is a pretty daunting prospect. I guess we'll see what happens.

I guess another way that time could come down is if new strats come up. Those tend to be a pretty big unknown until they surface, though, so I'm not counting on anything in that department.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

It is time: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi

[paulcdejean]

What's the latest you've ever lost?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

The latest I've ever dropped a run is C24 with deaths and C14 when deathless. They're pretty rare occurrences, though. Most of the runs are lost to C5, with C2 now coming in a relatively distant second (though it did dominate in the beginning). Generally speaking, if I get past C7, I'm going to complete the run.

[aven555]

What do you use to capture your 3ds screen?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

A capture card from http://3dscapture.com/

Unfortunately, if you're thinking about getting one, they're currently not taking orders. The last update at the end of August stated that one that's compatible with the New 3DS is in development, though, so hopefully that doesn't take too much longer.

Beyond that, I use the provided software to connect the capture card to my PC, then Open Broadcast Software (OBS) to capture and stream that.

A bit of a trivia update: been trying to hasten my derusting with early game runs. With middling luck and skip all actions turned on (plus mashing start through most player actions), I can get to the end of C4 in about 75 mins, give or take. I don't think it'll take much to become comfortable enough to start doing that with actual runs. I don't dare do it with P1 and C5, though; gonna have to see what other chapters I might be able to get away with that in.

[Czar_Yoshi]

Definitely don't do it in any chapter with reinforcements, you sometimes already miss checking them for Counter for a turn or two and have had at least one close shave where you were saved by a lucky miss while I was watching.

Cht.8 might be safe to try it on, though. The terrain works enough in your favor that you should be able to get away with going fast.

[Terrador]

I'm getting in on the resetless hype, and I think I discovered a tactic for Chapter 2 that makes the MAG barrier to entry [8+C/9] re: the Barbarian, one lower than is listed in Interceptor's strat (and is, as far as I can tell, new technology?). If she explicitly needs [9+C/10] somewhere else this map, kindly kill me, but this still makes the map slightly more reliable with a relatively slow Robin.

The strat: on Turn 1, have Frederick take Robin for the attack on the Mercenary, then have Stahl take Robin for the attack on the Barbarian. This is, with regard to position, identical to the standard, but under certain circumstances boosts the success rate on killing that Barbarian.

[spoiler=I think I've theoried this out properly?]If Fred takes her Turn 1 attacking the Merc, then Stahl takes her attacking the Myrm, Stahl deals 2-3 more damage. Since it should be very easy for Robin to be doing 7 damage to the Myrm from the back (though I think this tactic stops working at 10 ATK Thunder or less, unless her STR is quite high--you need a Silver Lance Dual Strike), the upshot is that this makes 12 ATK Thunder only slightly less solvent for that Barbarian in particular; though as far as I can tell 12 ATK doesn't create a point of failure anywhere else in the strat...? Let's look at some numbers for Fred vs. Robin hits/Dual Strikes. I'm not sure that back units can receive support bonuses in any way--I'm going to assume no, but it really doesn't change anything comparatively.

Stahl x Frederick DS: 24%

Stahl x Robin DS: 22% for base SKL, 23% average with 24% being not particularly unlikely

Silver Lance Frederick hit rate: 43 (37.41%)

Thunder Robin hit rate: 51 (52.47%) minimum, 58 (65.14%) is about average

Bronze Sword Frederick hit rate: 88 (97.24%)

Bronze Sword Robin hit rate: 75 (87.75%) minimum, 82 (93.70%) is about average (Robin needs to be exceptionally above average in HIT to equal or surpass Frederick)

For the Bronze Sword to be at all worthwhile, Robin needs: 10 MAG* and 7 STR, or 9 MAG* and 9 STR, 8 MAG* and 11 STR, or 7 MAG* and 13 STR, with MAG* being MAG + Wrank bonus, if applicable. So, moral of the story is:

If Robin can't double the Barbarian with Chrom support: you're pretty much dead already. I'm assuming you can (though I guess you could fish for a Silver Lance DS and pray for the rest of the map to work??)

If Robin has less than 12 SPE and at least one of the following STR/MAG* setups listed above: pass her up, use Bronze Sword.

If Robin has less than 12 SPE and fails to meet those STR/MAG* setups: pass her up, use Thunder.

If Robin has at least 12 SPE: Do not pass her up unless she has 9 MAG*.

This really doesn't change anything else, except shaking up supports that Really Don't Matter (since Virion x Fred C is the only one listed that needs to be micromanaged, and puts in more work C2 than anywhere else anyway?).

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Okay, hold on a second. If I'm getting you right, this is what you want the modified step process to be:

-Virion pairs to Robin; Robin moves 2 south of Merc, swaps to Virion and attacks.

-Fred moves 1 north of Virion, takes Robin and attacks the Merc.

-Stahl moves 1 west of Fred, takes Robin and attacks the Barb.

-Lissa moves 2 south of Stahl.

-Chrom moves 1 south of Stahl, takes Robin, swaps and has Robin finish off the Barb.

Doesn't this expose a possibly wounded Stahl to attack from the Soldier who is normally fought by Sully? Even if he's at full, Stahl will be wielding a sword versus a lance and get doubled. If he survives, we then run into the issue of the Soldier now body blocking Robin. Or am I misunderstanding?

And yeah, back units don't receive the direct support bonuses. Some aura skills still apply, but most won't be applicable this early in the game (basically, maybe Solidarity, but that's not especially reliable offensively and only has a defensive niche against Gamble).

Definitely don't do it in any chapter with reinforcements, you sometimes already miss checking them for Counter for a turn or two and have had at least one close shave where you were saved by a lucky miss while I was watching.

Cht.8 might be safe to try it on, though. The terrain works enough in your favor that you should be able to get away with going fast.

I could probably micro-manage things a little harder too, skipping individual fights where the conclusion is foregone (non-Aegis+ fliers engaging Robin when she has a forged wind tome or enemies who get one-shot by the forged Flux/Thunder/Elthunder). I could probably also get away with maps with extremely predictable movement, such as C10 (post-Thief hunt) and the middle of P12 (after clearing out the initial wave and dealing with the fliers who won't be fed to Lucina). Chunks of very early C11 combat, as well as a decent chunk of early manuevering can probably be skipped in C12. C13 is basically just blitzed in 1-2 turns in the first place. Enemy movement (but not combat) can probably be skipped in just about any map where I'm actively turtling (since they'll all inevitably cluster up and I'll be rechecking skills and positions of the closest enemies every player phase, anyway).

[Terrador]

...I'm sorry, I misinterpreted where Frederick normally is. Yeah, this doesn't end up working at all. How to pay attention 101 starring Terrador, lol.

Although, regarding Chapter 1: I'm having the first Barbarian (if he doesn't have HP+5) get doubled for 15 and killed when Robin has 10 SPE, regardless of her STR (15 x 2 normally, 16 x 2 with 10+ STR). Am I missing a wrinkle somewhere...?

Edited September 16, 2015 by Terrador

[aven555]

Nope, this is normal if Robin has 10 spd+.