Resetless Lunatic+ Run COMPLETED (Deathless) (With Complete Guide)

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

You are not missing anything. I'm not sure where I got that math from (at first, I thought it might be Silver Lance strats, but the math doesn't line up there, either...). Unfortunately, it'll end up depriving Robin of a bit of EXP, but it's more important to the strategy for the Fighter to die and everyone to be in position.

EDIT: Quickly updated the C1 notes in order to avert future confusion.

Edited September 18, 2015 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Off we go: http://www.twitch.tv/kuroitsubasatenshi

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

So I actually got around to updating something, namely my C2 notes: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=52170&page=2#entry3629869

Shout-outs to Terrador for making me go back and re-examine the standard Interceptor strat, as it led to a strat that does the following: allows Robin to win with just 11-12 Attack (with Chrom with Rapier or Bronze Sword, respectively) and makes the Barb Stahl fights unable to insta-blick him with Gamble (and 8% crit is a pretty scary number). For more details, so the revised post.

I also added a few more things regarding the second wave and added an entry for my standard defensive strat that avoids having to fight the Barb while he's on a Mountain tile (see the revised post again).

Fun fact: While I was working on these updates, the Merc scored his 1% crit on Fred twice—once with Luna+, which insta-blicked him. The other time, I got Fred onto the Mountain, used the Elixir... then the other Barb ran in and crit-sploded him. Hopefully that's all out of the game's system now, so that I don't end up facing that kind of junk next Friday. >.>

Next on the agenda is to actually get my revised C3 strategies edited in.

[Terrador]

Damn, wish I had seen that stream. I'll try to get in on the next one!

Your work never ceases to amaze--Chapter 2 is looking like less and less of a beast every day. Question on Lissa C by Chapter 2: it looks like that can be done just by having Robin roll with Lissa for enemies she 3HKOs even with Fred in Prologue, with no opportunity cost, no?

Let me think... you should be taking at least 6 Heals to deal with the Elthunder Mage most days, if my memory is right, two for the first wave of Prologue, three adjacent fights for the boss of that map, so... 22/27. Doesn't that mean that having Robin fight one battle with Lissa alongside her, in any map, should result in C? Or am I wrong?

[Czar_Yoshi]

What should happen and what does happen regarding support building are very different things.

[Terrador]

Amen on that one. Four Dual Strikes = 4* 6/9 = 24/9 = 3 apparently, with Fred and Virion? Who even knows.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Damn, wish I had seen that stream. I'll try to get in on the next one!

Your work never ceases to amaze--Chapter 2 is looking like less and less of a beast every day. Question on Lissa C by Chapter 2: it looks like that can be done just by having Robin roll with Lissa for enemies she 3HKOs even with Fred in Prologue, with no opportunity cost, no?

Let me think... you should be taking at least 6 Heals to deal with the Elthunder Mage most days, if my memory is right, two for the first wave of Prologue, three adjacent fights for the boss of that map, so... 22/27. Doesn't that mean that having Robin fight one battle with Lissa alongside her, in any map, should result in C? Or am I wrong?

Thanks, but it's a community thing, really. If it weren't for you and others pushing me to think outside the box, a lot of these strats would have been missed or remained un-optimized.

Yeah, in theory the C should be easy. There's still definitely something weird going on that we haven't figured out, though. Even with female Robin, Lissa sometimes has some issues getting to C. The healing and combat involved with the Elthunder Mage alone should do it (at least 3 combats, even if Mag level ups are good, plus at least 3 heals from kiting around, which should be 12 BP). Lissa usually has to heal several times in C1 (I think 3 normally does it), otherwise she might not make it. Male Robin would need at least 3 more BP (which shouldn't be terribly hard to set up with the final Fighter or two).

Another case where supports don't seem to work as they should was the one time I was able to employ C1 Fort tanking strats on-stream. Prologue should easily earn them enough points, with 9 of it coming from the Boss and 6 from killing the first Barb and engaging the first Myrm before jumping into the water. During that particular C1, Robin and Chrom fought together enough to get 13 BP. That should have been overkill by 6 BP, but they still didn't get to C support. It's baffling.

On the other hand, sometimes supports that I'm not expecting at all happen. Like, I don't go for early Sully/Robin C most of the time and occasionally it will pop up, despite doing about the same amount of fighting in C1. And, either last night or the week before, I ran into Robin/Lissa B, Robin/Fred B and Lissa/Fred B building, even though they were only doing the usual actions that build 1 BP at a time.

It's for this reason that I usually push for gross overkill in BP building in Prologue.

[Terrador]

...has anyone considered that there may be a literally random element to support building? My left hand for better data mining there.

Small situational thing for Chapter 1, as well: on the off chance that Robin is so jacked that she can kill the first Barbarian herself, she's got fort healing + a free action to Vuln two turns later, and everybody can be positioned the same way for Turn 2 by moving Frederick before Chrobin. This... might be the difference between Robin hitting Solidarity and not before Chapter 2; it makes the Chrom support build a hair slower but such a pro Robin can probably get more work done without Frederick pair anyway? If it comes up in a run, I'll tell y'all how it goes.

Terrador for having coked-out ideas since 2k15

E: While I'm here, have you looked into specifics on when Fort-tanking does or doesn't work out, and any strats around it? Namely, how to pull the C with both Chrom and Frederick and still live through everything. You mention it offhand in your C1 guide, and I imagine pretty much everyone here has forced low Luna+ density and rammed through it.

Edited September 20, 2015 by Terrador

[Vascela]

While random could be a possibility, I think that should be ruled out until we've exhausted all other explanations. Because if we write it off as RNG, then when will we go back and solve the puzzle if there is one. Sure, it might be a waste of time (if it does turn out to be random). But, if we know what and why causes it, we can find a way to abuse [or avoid] it as well--as opposed to be straight out getting dunked on by losing a support rank.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

...has anyone considered that there may be a literally random element to support building? My left hand for better data mining there.

Small situational thing for Chapter 1, as well: on the off chance that Robin is so jacked that she can kill the first Barbarian herself, she's got fort healing + a free action to Vuln two turns later, and everybody can be positioned the same way for Turn 2 by moving Frederick before Chrobin. This... might be the difference between Robin hitting Solidarity and not before Chapter 2; it makes the Chrom support build a hair slower but such a pro Robin can probably get more work done without Frederick pair anyway? If it comes up in a run, I'll tell y'all how it goes.

Terrador for having coked-out ideas since 2k15

E: While I'm here, have you looked into specifics on when Fort-tanking does or doesn't work out, and any strats around it? Namely, how to pull the C with both Chrom and Frederick and still live through everything. You mention it offhand in your C1 guide, and I imagine pretty much everyone here has forced low Luna+ density and rammed through it.

I agree with Vascela. I'd rather look for a non-random element. Yoshi has proposed a jealousy system, which would make sense, although, I'm having some difficulty thinking of any consistent actions that might merit BP loss. Once the Yeswi file completes, I might spend some time screwing around with the bonus Paralogue recruits and remaining kids (since their support pool with Robin should be zeroed) and Spotpass maps and see if I can find anything weird.

Hmmm, for Robin to be that powerful, she'd have to go 6 for 6 with Mag or 5 for 6 with Str and get up to either 9 Spd (practically a given) or 12 Spd (relatively easy for +Spd, difficult for any other build). For Mag, she could then, with C tomes do 2x15 with Thunder and a Chrom pair. Str would require taking Fred to get her Attack up to 17. I'm not really convinced that taking the damage would be conducive to the normal strat. It might be feasible with Fort tanking strats.

As far as the pre-requisites for Fort tanking, we're looking for at least 10 Def (preferably 11), a decent amount of gained Str and as much Spd as possible (hopefully at least 12 to double the Fighters with Fred). Then we don't want the Archer or Mercs to have Luna+, nor the Fighters to have Hawkeye (Luna+ is actually acceptable for them, even if we'd prefer they don't have it, since we're wanting to dodge with the Bronze Sword, anyway). It's not a scenario that happens very often. At least not without being a +Def Robin.

[Terrador]

...I think I might have an idea on the supports, actually. What if there's a cap on the number of support points a unit can gain in a map in general? But since Lissa's points mostly come before Chrom that creates a weird situation where it'd have to be "support points 'gained', then prioritized and capped come end of map", which would be Very Odd.

And nice, thanks for the heads-up. How would you recommend snagging Chrom supports in that event? Swapping to him when things get less dicey?

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

That is a possibility I've also considered. Once I start messing with zeroed supports and wimpy Spotpass teams, I should be able to determine whether or not there is one. I'll be starting with just single pairs to verify that the BP really does work how we think it does, though.

As for getting C1 Chrom supports, yeah, just at the end, similar to how the kiting strat works. Once two, maybe three Fighters are left, it should be easy enough to pick up the BP, especially if Chrom is unequipped to stretch out the combats.

[aven555]

Hey guys, I've been working on a strat for some time now to make C5 easier. It actually involve taking a Str asset/Mag flaw avatar. Then instead of going dark mage at P1, you would change into a myrmidon at C4.

This build is aimed at 1HKO every enemy in C5. Wyverns with counter being the biggest problem, you can actually acquire enough power by then to one shot them. Here are the details :

34hp , 10 def , axe user.

Therefore, being a sword user, you need a total of 43 atk to kill him.

You start at 8 str.

With being expected to reach lvl 19 entering C4 and lvl 8 Myrm entering C5. Here is your expected str : 8 (starting str) + 0.70 (Growth rate as Tact) x 18 (nb of lvl gained as Tact) +0.75 (Growth rate as Myrm) x 7 (nb of lvl gained as Myrm) = 25.85 str.

Equipping killing edge : + 9 atk

Paring with C or B support lvl Fred : + 5 atk

Having B mastery with sword : atk + 2

Drinking str tonic : + 2 str

Expected total atk : 25.85 + 9 + 5 + 2 + 2 = 43.85.

You might think that this is too tight, but remember that you can also forge your killing edge for up to + 3 power which gives a bit of room for slow str growth.

Tried it once and it was the easiest C5 I ever did.

You would then continue your class path as Assassin - Dark flyer - Hero - Assassin.

Works quite well, but it does have some cons vs your usual run. Notably C1 and C2 are harder.

Let me know what you guys think, I still have tons of details, but I wanted to keep this relatively short.

[Shadow Mir]

Hey guys, I've been working on a strat for some time now to make C5 easier. It actually involve taking a Str asset/Mag flaw avatar. Then instead of going dark mage at P1, you would change into a myrmidon at C4.

This build is aimed at 1HKO every enemy in C5. Wyverns with counter being the biggest problem, you can actually acquire enough power by then to one shot them. Here are the details :

34hp , 10 def , axe user.

Therefore, being a sword user, you need a total of 43 atk to kill him.

You start at 8 str.

With being expected to reach lvl 19 entering C4 and lvl 8 Myrm entering C5. Here is your expected str : 8 (starting str) + 0.70 (Growth rate as Tact) x 18 (nb of lvl gained as Tact) +0.75 (Growth rate as Myrm) x 7 (nb of lvl gained as Myrm) = 25.85 str.

Equipping killing edge : + 9 atk

Paring with C or B support lvl Fred : + 5 atk

Having B mastery with sword : atk + 2

Drinking str tonic : + 2 str

Expected total atk : 25.85 + 9 + 5 + 2 + 2 = 43.85.

You might think that this is too tight, but remember that you can also forge your killing edge for up to + 3 power which gives a bit of room for slow str growth.

Tried it once and it was the easiest C5 I ever did.

You would then continue your class path as Assassin - Dark flyer - Hero - Assassin.

Works quite well, but it does have some cons vs your usual run. Notably C1 and C2 are harder.

Let me know what you guys think, I still have tons of details, but I wanted to keep this relatively short.

I'll let someone else go into real detail, but the main problem I have with this is having no range outside of a 25 use Levin Sword. You'd also have to rely on luck against Counter/Pavise+ enemies...

Edited September 23, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[aven555]

Fair point, but you don't really need it much. Beside the knights is C4 and some occurences is C5, C6 you can cope with having no range until C8.

Indeed pavise/counter is the biggest problem, althought you can manage 1 of them at the time.

But aegis/counter is equally a problem in the current strat.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Hmmm, definitely an interesting approach. I have some concerns, though.

The first is that it neuters Robin's 1~2 range offense right from the start. She ends up with less Mag and Spd, which Prologue kind of doesn't care about, but jeopardizes some EXP in C1, most notably the boss kill. C2 and C3 would both probably still be manageable, but it'd likely have fewer strat options. On the other hand, the sword phase of those chapters would be easier. Since the Levin Sword is based on Mag, this issue will continue.

The second is the scarcity and utility of the weapons. The Killing Edge only has 30 uses and is stuck at 1 range, as opposed to the easily attainable tomes with 1~2 range. The Levin Sword can fill the 1~2 range niche, but only has 25 uses and has damage based on Robin's Flaw. Since Robin will be reclassing to Myrmidon, that means that those swords need to carry her through P1, C5, C6, and C7 (the Steel Sword from here can be forged to meet the power of the Killing Edge, but not the crit, which would hopefully allow for getting through the half of C8 needed for the Master Seal). Because of this, Pavise+/Counter is actually a lot harsher on the sword build than Aegis+/Counter on a tome build. With tomes, not only do the forged Flux or forged Wind not depend on the build's Flaw, but can safely attack the target at range without taking damage. This cuts the pool of threatening Aegis+/Counter down to just the ones Robin can't get the drop on. With the Pavise+/Counter, there's either risk hoping for the crit (potentially softened a bit by forging +Crit on the KE) or using the limited and wimpy Levin Sword (which is also affected by Pavise+) to soften them up, then be used again on EP, risking taking damage and limiting movement of allies.

Third, taking such a hit in Mag (especially with Myrmidon having a low Mag cap and a 25% growth—25% less than Dark Mage) would make tome strats with Dark Flier both weak and risky. While there's always Lances, they start at E, which means needing the Arms Scroll. But then the Hero reclass would like one too. This makes the P4 Arms Scroll a make or break item and I don't think my strat for that can be made to work with an Assassin (because the varied enemies require having 1~2 range being one-shot with the forged Flux and the vulnerable allies needing to fend for themselves while Robin rushes the Thief).

And, a bit more of a minor concern: Assassin Def is really bad. This makes it a poor finishing class. Even with Galeforce and Pass, some of the later chapters, especially C23, C24 or Endgame could get kind of scary.

I could possibly see this working for a male Robin run, though, since he has the benefit of the Warrior class, which could lead to a route of Tact -> Myrm -> Assassin -> Hero -> Warrior. Alternatively, something a bit riskier could run Tact -> Fighter (fully forged Bronze Axe with similar conditions will give him 2 more Attack and more Str room to grow) -> Hero (a bit risky because of Counter, but could probably still muscle through with forged melee axes) -> Assassin (also a bit risky, because low Def, but without Galeforce, Pass is a lot more attractive) -> Warrior. With Great Lord Chrom backing, this also has the benefit of Robin being able to use the Warrior!Morgan strat of killing Grima.

[Shadow Mir]

Fair point, but you don't really need it much. Beside the knights is C4 and some occurences is C5, C6 you can cope with having no range until C8.

Indeed pavise/counter is the biggest problem, althought you can manage 1 of them at the time.

But aegis/counter is equally a problem in the current strat.

Well, Kuroi mentioned pretty much all my issues with your idea, so... I don't think I have much more to say. Other than that I think it doesn't hold a candle to Kuroi's current strategy, that is.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[aven555]

All valid points for sure. As for exp I was under the impression thay I was actuallt ahead of the usual curve as I had to hit one more attacks of some of the enemies in prologue. I had no trouble landing the final hit in C1. I could explain in detail my strat if you're interested. I had more trouble with C2 but it's still manageable.

Going after C5 you'll need a forged steel sword to handle enemies in C6. C6 is mainly the problem due to cavaliers. C7 is quite easy and C8 requires a bit more work using cordelia as your transport.

As for the late game Assassin, it's not as bad as you'd think. His poor def is diminished by vantage and high proc skill of sol. Beside as this point he will be using mainly a bow, negating damage taking by counter. That and Morgan does the heavy lifting.

I'm mostly seeing a way to improve playthrough time by using this. I did it in 11:45, without trying for this and I was rusty. I'm sure it could be improve in a tons of ways but just wanted to share.

Edited September 23, 2015 by aven555

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Yeah, Prologue is likely to give a bit more EXP because of the lower starting Mag. As for C1, there's less statistical leeway for Robin to get the kill with -Mag. In theory, she should have enough Attack to combo it out with Fred's help about half the time. Not terrible, but not consistent.

Where is this forged Steel Sword coming from for C6? The earliest vendor is C9. The soonest one drops is mid-C7.

It's not the Counter I'm worried about with Assassin, it's the Hawkeye and Luna+ (sometimes together) with high Attack enemies. At least the latter can even give a Dark Knight a scare if they come in large enough number. Sol is great and all, but at that level of burst damage, things can get iffy real fast.

What did you run as class progression for Morgan?

And hey, I appreciate that you're sharing, so thanks for that—I just want analyse for consistency and whatnot. The first almost-run that I had was shaping up to look like it'd be about 7.5 hours (also without trying too hard to keep the time down), but I haven't been able to even approach that in a long time. I've since learned that it's not really representative of a typical run, so I tend to look at bad- or worst-case scenarios, since they're invariably going to happen at some point or other (a fact I was quite glad of on my first deathless run, because practically every map of that run was out for blood).

Edited September 24, 2015 by Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi

[Vascela]

Perhaps an unbanned spotpass shop?

Which, I think you should consider as it is a controllable shop that everyone has access directly. It's one thing to limit renown (as you have to have 270 to play L+), but it's another to say you don't have access to spotpass. It also potentially changes your funds allocation early game.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Allowing Spotpass shops would completely change my shopping route. Early access to the Arc-series/Bolga/Rexcal/Thoron tomes would save me a lot of money on forges while having as much power as or more. Brave weaponry for safety could allow me to be much more aggressive about my Galeforce assassination targets (assuming the access to endgame tomes doesn't already just plain overpower them). I could bring a forged Wyrmslayer so that Fred could take on the Wyverns. I could bring an early Beastkiller so Fred could manhandle the C6 Cavaliers. C24 Wyverns would basically cease to be a threat. Actually, with those shops open, everything past C3 would just get rolled over.

[aven555]

Oops my bad, forged iron sword in C6 then forged steel for C8. Ran your usual run with Morgan so Hero - Warrior.

Although I didn't get any problems in my playthrough (no reset after c23) I can imagine mass luna/hawkeye enemies being a problem. Maybe going for a sniper endgame? I'm also looking at str/skill , str/luck build to mitigate some of the early game /dark flyer problems. Anyways. Food for thought.

Edited September 24, 2015 by aven555

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Ah, okay. Iron Sword makes much more sense.

For a unit that's not constantly retaliating, both Luna+ and Hawkeye are especially problematic (whereas Counter is the worst for 1~2 range; although Luna+ is still an issue, it's not as big of one). Sniper is probably about the best bet for a female Robin, as far as bow-using classes go, since it's the most durable (+9 over Assassin). This makes it harder for Hawkeye enemies without Luna+ to chip her to death—or set her up for the increasingly accurate Luna+ guys to kill her, since those are pretty nasty ~60 Attack vs 20~25 Def hits. These issues typically start showing up against routes or maps that might as well be routes where dodging just isn't reliable anymore. C20 starts showing shades of this, but has a decent of leeway (and C19 would be an example if it wasn't for the easy pairs of Forts). C23 and C24 are where it can really get dangerous, since multiple Luna+ units can be looking at 40-50 displayed hit in C23, closer to 60, maybe even 70, in C24. There's still terrain, but the odds of eating sword/bow/lance/Rexcalibur Luna+ get pretty high as enemies converge gets high and multiple can be deadly.

Of course, this is accounting for having maxed Def and speaking as someone who has had multiple runs where there was some pretty heavy RNG Def-screwing going on (I seem to recall Morgan only having 40 Def, even with help from Paladin!Lucina; it was bad to the point that I gave him the Naga's Tear instead of Chrom) and C24 has toted lots of dense clumps of Luna+ on sword and lance enemies.

[Czar_Yoshi]

...I think I might have an idea on the supports, actually. What if there's a cap on the number of support points a unit can gain in a map in general?

It can't be that. Someone got some video evidence of the phenomenon a while back using maps saves to confirm the difference, and a pair who had fought a very large number of battles together was shown to take exactly one more battle (in the same map) to reach the next rank. That would only happen if the growth was either slowed or drained, not capped (unless it's a cap per turn, but I doubt that).

[aven555]

I'll try sniper for my next run. Biggest con I had found in my other run vs assasin was the lack of options vs aegis enemies. At least with an assassin class Robin you can switch to a sword vs aegis.

By the way, I think found a strat that let constantly Robin land the killing blow on the boss in C1. Let me know if you guys are interested in hearing it.

Edited September 24, 2015 by aven555