Should magic triangles return?

[Varidan]

In Awakening, i disliked how dark magic reined supreme, and outside of that, you really only used Thunder magic since its might and crit was higher. Their lower accuracy meant nothing in the face of pair up bonuses and inflated stats. Sure, the MT difference wasnt all that noticeable, but for people who like to be fully optimized, I can't see why you would use Fire magic in that game, especially since nothing had weaknesses to fire. You MIGHT use Wind to deal with wyvern/griffon riders, but bows/sword users worked well enough, and pegasi had too much resist to matter. Besides, they tended to come in swarms, and leaving squishy Ricken out in the open is just asking for a dead kid.

However, I think the WTA could be useful with all these newer classes, such as dark fliers. Employing Fire magic on them would put them at less of a disadvantage vs Wind magic. Or we could simply give magic some useful affects. Fire could ignite them, and do damage per turn, like poison in older games. Thunder could have a low chance to paralyze them, leaving them unable to move and/or act. Wind could shove units away! All 3 of these mechanics have been in a game at one time or another, it shouldn't be that new to IS.

As an afterthought, we have melee weapons that do magic damage... why not magic weapons that do physical? I know it sounds silly but... its freaking magic! You do whatever the hell you want if you can master the arcane!

[Shadow Mir]

The magic weapon triangle does the same thing that the regular weapon triangle does. It gives each character differentiation, different reasons to attack enemies. Yes, in POR, unlike Holy War you could grind up weapon rank, but using the different types of magic against the individual types of magic users made for more layers of strategy.

The difference between the characters from POR was what weapons they would use, they all are pretty ineffectual end game, and what end game would they would likely be able to use.

The regular and magic triangle have never been perfect, but their differences allowed for varying strategy and differentiated characters.

This isn't nearly as true as you think - in POR, enemies actually had resistance stats, and tomes had low power, meaning mage vs mage confrontations generally went nowhere fast, unless one side was significantly stronger than the other, which would make the magic triangle meaningless.

In Awakening, i disliked how dark magic reined supreme, and outside of that, you really only used Thunder magic since its might and crit was higher. Their lower accuracy meant nothing in the face of pair up bonuses and inflated stats. Sure, the MT difference wasnt all that noticeable, but for people who like to be fully optimized, I can't see why you would use Fire magic in that game, especially since nothing had weaknesses to fire. You MIGHT use Wind to deal with wyvern/griffon riders, but bows/sword users worked well enough, and pegasi had too much resist to matter. Besides, they tended to come in swarms, and leaving squishy Ricken out in the open is just asking for a dead kid.

However, I think the WTA could be useful with all these newer classes, such as dark fliers. Employing Fire magic on them would put them at less of a disadvantage vs Wind magic. Or we could simply give magic some useful affects. Fire could ignite them, and do damage per turn, like poison in older games. Thunder could have a low chance to paralyze them, leaving them unable to move and/or act. Wind could shove units away! All 3 of these mechanics have been in a game at one time or another, it shouldn't be that new to IS.

As an afterthought, we have melee weapons that do magic damage... why not magic weapons that do physical? I know it sounds silly but... its freaking magic! You do whatever the hell you want if you can master the arcane!

It's not like a dark flier would be helped much with WTA in that case - you'd only get a scissors-cuts-rock scenario instead (AKA, the disadvantaged side comes out on top). And all this is ignoring the elephant in the room - that being that mages tend to be a minority in the enemy forces.

Edited February 25, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Zasplach]

And all this is ignoring the elephant in the room - that being that mages tend to be a minority in the enemy forces.

And that is the one crux of the argument, that may be the only reason why I see not having a magic triangle, but I'd prefer to see lots more mages like in some iterations of the series.

And yes, in POR tombs were weak, really weak, but there have been times when mages could actually kill mages. And in those times, the weapon triangle could play a major role. For example, in Genealogy, the magic triangle basically makes it impossible to kill the last two bosses with your Holstey user.

[Shadow Mir]

And that is the one crux of the argument, that may be the only reason why I see not having a magic triangle, but I'd prefer to see lots more mages like in some iterations of the series.

And yes, in POR tombs were weak, really weak, but there have been times when mages could actually kill mages. And in those times, the weapon triangle could play a major role. For example, in Genealogy, the magic triangle basically makes it impossible to kill the last two bosses with your Holstey user.

Genealogy was also about the only game where putting mage against mage wasn't that bad an idea. Though the magic triangle, by your own admission, was done horribly in that game anyhow... Either way, it's almost impossible to kill the last boss with Holsety, but it's not because of the magic triangle at all.

Edited February 26, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Zasplach]

Actually, that minus 20 to hit was a big deal. And killing chapter 10's boss is almost impossible due to the triangle as well. And the triangle wasn't done horribly, everyone got +10 to hit for advantage and -10 to hit for disadvantage, the weigh the did attack speed and tomb weight was the bad idea. Granted the whole weapon triangle was a little wonky in Genealogy, first try for IS and everything. Just because it was executed poorly doesn't mean the idea was bad.

[Shadow Mir]

Actually, that minus 20 to hit was a big deal. And killing chapter 10's boss is almost impossible due to the triangle as well. And the triangle wasn't done horribly, everyone got +10 to hit for advantage and -10 to hit for disadvantage, the weigh the did attack speed and tomb weight was the bad idea. Granted the whole weapon triangle was a little wonky in Genealogy, first try for IS and everything. Just because it was executed poorly doesn't mean the idea was bad.

Given that the last boss takes scratch damage from pretty much everything that isn't Narga, why are you attributing it to the magic triangle??? Also, wasn't it +/- 20 hit in FE4? Anyways, Arvis and Julius are only two enemies in the whole game. That said, I agree that the unbalanced weight was the real problem.

[Zasplach]

Eh, killing him with Narga is so boring. Though without the -20, you are right about that, Holstey could kill him with planning, everyone does scratch damage to him. The triangle may have been the most effectual at its start.

I'm just being slightly obstinate now. I like the weapon triangle for both regular weapons and magic tombs, you don't have to, it doesn't effect me. I very much doubt it (magic weapon triangle) will be in the next game, Awakening as a game tried to slim down the series, streamline it. It's not my favorite, but I understand why they are doing it. Lots of things I like won't be in the next game, I'll just have to put my big boy pants on and deal with it.

[Light Master]

Why don't balance the classes too:

Shaman/Druid: Have more Magic and Defense, but with low resistance and speed.

Dark Magic: Good Mgt, low hit and more weight.

Mage/Sage: Balanced Magic, Defense, Resistance,Skill and Speed.

Anima Magic: Balanced Might, Hit and Weight.

Monk/Bishop: More Skill, Speed and Resistance. Middle ground Magic and terrible Defense.

Light Magic: Poor Might, but good Hit and Critical Rate and little might.

Edited February 28, 2015 by Light Master

[arvilino]

Actually, that minus 20 to hit was a big deal. And killing chapter 10's boss is almost impossible due to the triangle as well. And the triangle wasn't done horribly, everyone got +10 to hit for advantage and -10 to hit for disadvantage, the weigh the did attack speed and tomb weight was the bad idea. Granted the whole weapon triangle was a little wonky in Genealogy, first try for IS and everything. Just because it was executed poorly doesn't mean the idea was bad.

Was it due to the triangle though? In Geneaology the weight difference between any Wind and Fire type tome was that Fire weighed 10 more(-20 avoid). Imagine if 2 magic users with equal stats(for the sake of easy calculation of avoid 0 skill, speed and luck) were wielding Elwind(base 80 hit. 2 weight[-4 avoid]) they'd have 84 hit against each other.

Mage 1: Elwind, 84 hit (80 hit, enemy has -4 avoid)

Mage 2: Elwind, 84 hit

Then Mage 1 swaps to Elfire (80 hit, 12 weight[-24 avoid]) for WTA(+20 hit) and Wind gets WTD(-20 hit) we get:

Mage 1: Elfire, 104 hit (80 hit, enemey has -4 avoid)

Mage 2: Elwind, 84 hit (60 hit due to WTD, enemy has -24 avoid)

The hit loss WTD is completley canceled out by the Elfire wielder's avoid dropping by 20.With Valflame(15 weight), 80 hit, +10 magic +10 m.def versus Forseti's(Holsety) 5 weight , 90 hit, +10 skill(20 hit),+20 speed:

Mage 1: Vaflame: 70 hit (100 hit due to WTA, enemy has 30 avoid due to Forseit)

Mage 2: Forseti: 120 hit (90 hit due to WTD and +10 skill, enemy has -30 avoid)

As a result you can see on an even playing field Chapter 10's boss would actually be at big disadvantage and the magic triangle effects are not even remotely able to counteract the stat boosts of Forseti. It's the Stats, Skills(Big Shield,Awareness), the +10 magic and +10 m.def from Valflame, standing on a castle that make the chapter 10 boss hard to kill for anyone, your Forseti user would actually have a better chance than most units.

I think people give the Magic Triangle too much credit for what is mostly the other game mechanics in practice.

Edited February 28, 2015 by arvilino

[Baldrick]

It's too bad he's not on an even playing field. Obviously the 64 avoid from stats, 40 leadership and 30 terrain increases Alvis' avoid more than the WTD does. But it's the icing on the cake that makes Holsety that much less reliable, especially with the +mdef meaning you need to land multiple hits to offset throne healing. Going from 120 to 100 hit may be meaningless, but going from 50 to 30 hit would be a big deal.

[Sentacotus]

Yes gives incentive to actually use the different tomes instead of just picking the strongest dark and thunder tomes.

[Shadow Mir]

Yes gives incentive to actually use the different tomes instead of just picking the strongest dark and thunder tomes.

Really? Because in general I never saw that to be the case in games with the magic triangle, largely because mages are such a minority.

Edited March 1, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Sentacotus]

Really? Because in general I never saw that to be the case in games with the magic triangle, largely because mages are such a minority.

I meant in FE13 there is no triangle so you disregard using different types of magic and just go for the strongest tomes.

[Radiant head]

S/SS tomes in Tellius helped fix that issue by encouraging your mage to use their special type.

[Firestone]

A magic triangle is needed, but how about also giving some tomes special effects. Fire should be strongest, thunder have a crit bonus, and wind effective against fliers, but lets adress dark and light magic. Dark already has nosferatu, but how about bringing luna back, or adding some more dark magic. Light should also be more than weaker thunder tomes with high hit. Maybe they could 'blind' the enemy, reducing accuracy, or assist allies in other ways while also damaging to add to the bishops supporting role.

Back to the topic, magic triangle is a good idea, because it also prevents people to just use the most powerful tomes, and thinking before they attack with it.

[Sentacotus]

S/SS tomes in Tellius helped fix that issue by encouraging your mage to use their special type.

Yeah but in 13 they don't even make the distinction based on the type of magic. There's just tome rank.

[Shadow Mir]

I meant in FE13 there is no triangle so you disregard using different types of magic and just go for the strongest tomes.

Well, I don't do that - largely because of accuracy. I'm not going to stick with a Thoron tome when I'm only got like 57% or so hit chance... And again, would it really encourage diversity when it's been inconsequential ever since FE4??

[Sentacotus]

Well, I don't do that - largely because of accuracy. I'm not going to stick with a Thoron tome when I'm only got like 57% or so hit chance... And again, would it really encourage diversity when it's been inconsequential ever since FE4??

I would think it would yeah. I mean the weapon triangle promotes using certain weapons to have higher damage and hit rates verse others and I'd assume the magic triangle would do the same thing. Even something rudimentry like in FE7 where Fire,Wind, and thunder all were strong vs light but weak verse dark.

[Shadow Mir]

I would think it would yeah. I mean the weapon triangle promotes using certain weapons to have higher damage and hit rates verse others and I'd assume the magic triangle would do the same thing. Even something rudimentry like in FE7 where Fire,Wind, and thunder all were strong vs light but weak verse dark.

The big difference is that physical units in general are more different than magical units are (most magical units have high resistance, meaning that the magic triangle tends to have little, if any, effect).

[Anacybele]

Yes, please bring both magic trinities back. They're not even that hard to remember, and I never at all liked that Awakening watered down the weapon categories and gameplay by grouping tomes together and leaving dark tomes separate. At the very least, bring light magic back.

The trinities also added depth to the strategy of the game. Picking which tome you used based on matchups and all. And like Lord Taco said, you have to use a variety of tomes rather than just going for the strongest ones.

[Shadow Mir]

The trinities also added depth to the strategy of the game. Picking which tome you used based on matchups and all. And like Lord Taco said, you have to use a variety of tomes rather than just going for the strongest ones.

Maybe in FE4, but otherwise, I doubt that statement would hold water. Especially in Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Anacybele]

Not really. When battling laguz or other mages, choosing which tome to use became essential. Each laguz is weak to a type of tome, beasts are weak to fire, the birds are weak to wind, and the dragons are weak to thunder. Wind was also effective against Pegasus knights and I think wyvern riders too. In a chapter where you're battling beast laguz, equip your mages with fire tomes, then equip them with wind against birds and Pegasi and wyverns, and so on.

[Shadow Mir]

Not really. When battling laguz or other mages, choosing which tome to use became essential. Each laguz is weak to a type of tome, beasts are weak to fire, the birds are weak to wind, and the dragons are weak to thunder. Wind was also effective against Pegasus knights and I think wyvern riders too. In a chapter where you're battling beast laguz, equip your mages with fire tomes, then equip them with wind against birds and Pegasi and wyverns, and so on.

In PoR, the effective bonus was only double, which meant that in the case of fliers, wind wasn't that much better than thunder against the enemies it was effective against (not to mention wyvern riders easily went under even against non-wind spells)... In addition, I generally found little reason to switch out of whatever tome type the mages specialized in before promotion, largely because raising magic levels is a pain. Also, laguz and enemy mages are both in the minority of enemies.

Edited March 2, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Anacybele]

Well then, buff the bonus or something. Nobody said that some things can't be tweaked. :P

[Shadow Mir]

Well then, buff the bonus or something. Nobody said that some things can't be tweaked. :P

Maybe, but again, it only applied to a minority of enemies. Either way, this has nothing to do with the magic triangle.