Should magic triangles return?

[Aitherios]

I think there will be a significant change in the usage of magic/tomes in IF, along with maybe the return of Light Magic.

I was wondering if it would be favorable to have the Anima and Trinity of Magic make a return as it adds to more challenge, especially on higher difficulties. Which also leads to discussions about Light returning, but I think that could be put a little bit off for now, or not. I don't know.

And would the return of the triangles make the gameplay more interesting, or would it be a turn down?

I guess I'd like them to return, but I think the game could do fine without them

Edited February 23, 2015 by Aitherios

[Magical Glace]

Inb4 Levant >_>

Yes. I personally like the GBA trilogy most, I have trouble remembering what beats what in the Jugdral/PoR one.

I wouldn't mind both though

[NekoKnight]

I voted for just the Light/Dark/Anima triangle. Those schools of magic are more diverse than the 3 anima magic types, their advantages over each other make more sense, and it's better to have 3 distinct magic using classes (monk, shaman, mage) for each 3rd of the trinity rather than just one which can use all parts of the trinity (mages).

[Passionfruit Cappuccino]

I agree with NekoKnight. Having 3 seperate classes with a magic triangle seems much better than a magic triangle simply within a single class itself. If both of these ideas were implemented, i think that it would be much too complicated an unnecessary to do so.

Seeing the magic triangle return would be nice as it increases the depth of strategy without completely ruining any aspects of the game in general

[Topazd]

Magic triangle is something I wouldn't mind returning, though I have to say that it's execution prior hasn't exactly been optimal.

In Jugdral, for instance, the triangle didn't impact much since wind was still by far the strongest of the elements, other than perhaps slightly hindering the reliability of killing Arvis with Forseti, which you probably weren't intent on doing anyways.

I'm all for an anima/dark/light triangle returning, as long as the WTA/WTD buffs/nerfs aren't insignificant and/or identical for every magic type, as they (iirc) have been in the past. The buffs/nerfs could be different depending on the respective magic type.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Topazd

[Hudder368]

I would love for the magic system in Radiant Dawn to return. I enjoyed how it had the basic anima/light/dark, but I enjoyed the sub-triangle within the anima category.

But then part of me wouldn't because it would mean we would need at least two of each fire, thunder and wind mages, like in RD, then the light and dark classes, whether or not they would create new classes for those instead of just monks and shamans respectively

[Ambulz]

I'm impartial towards the magic trinity as a whole. All I really want is for light magic to come back, first and foremost.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Yes, it should return,

And there also should be anima triangle as it existed in Tellius (and believe FE4).

Edited February 23, 2015 by Mister IceTeaPeach

[Robert Stewart]

If it does return I'd rather it just be the GBA Magic Trinity. IS has never really done a good enough job at differentiating the 3 types of anima magic to justify the existence of the Anima trinity.

Yes. I personally like the GBA trilogy most, I have trouble remembering what beats what in the Jugdral/PoR one.

I usually just remember that Fire beats Wind. That one's easy because they're red and green, respectively, which reminds me of Fire and Grass in Pokemon. After that, the rest comes easily.

[BrightBow]

There is no need for several types of magic when they all end up serving the same function of dealing massive damage to low-res classes. So there is no need for a magic triangle either.

I mean, sure it was kinda nice for flavor reasons in Jugdral because there were houses that were associated with a certain type of magic, which helped giving their armies their own identity even when all their mages were basically identical. But this kind of thing hasn't really been done since then, as every faction always uses every type of magic.

And if they actually make the magic types diverse, then there still would be no need to rely on a rock-scissor-paper system because each type would already have their own strengths that would give one a reason to choose on over the other depending on the situation.

Edited February 23, 2015 by BrightBow

[Irysa]

Just bring back Light Magic in some capacity, I don't care if there's a triangle or not. I wanna be able to smite people with Holy Magic yo.

[Rukathesoldier]

I can't wait for this to become just like that other thread regarding something returning.

[NekoKnight]

There is no need for several types of magic when they all end up serving the same function of dealing massive damage to low-res classes. So there is no need for a magic triangle either.

I mean, sure it was kinda nice for flavor reasons in Jugdral because there were houses that were associated with a certain type of magic, which helped giving their armies their own identity even when all their mages were basically identical. But this kind of thing hasn't really been done since then, as every faction always uses every type of magic.

And if they actually make the magic types diverse, then there still would be no need to rely on a rock-scissor-paper system because each type would already have their own strengths that would give one a reason to choose on over the other depending on the situation.

Magic can and should be varied for bother flavor reasons and practical. Magic in the GBA games was varied enough, with Dark tomes being the strongest but least accurate (axes), Light being the weakest but most accurate (swords) and Anima being somewhere in-between (lances). That's not even going into the special effects some spells have such as weapon effectiveness or life draining. If magic user vs magic user conflicts are not deemed relevant, the stats can be tweaked. It's not like anyone is going to say "Don't bother fighting physical fighters with physical fighters. Physical fighters just exist to fight low defense units like mages".

I can't wait for this to become just like that other thread regarding something returning.

Filthy casuals are ruining Fire Emblem.

[Paper Dragon]

It'd at least spice up fights between mages a bit and it'd give me a reason to use different kinds of magic. I also would like to see light magic return and if it's not limited to one class, I'd love to give all my dark knights light tomes for the sake of irony. (Its really not that funny but I want to do it anyway)

[Shadow Mir]

No. I just don't see why the magic triangle needs to return when mages are a minority in both the player's and enemy's armies as is,

Magic can and should be varied for bother flavor reasons and practical. Magic in the GBA games was varied enough, with Dark tomes being the strongest but least accurate (axes), Light being the weakest but most accurate (swords) and Anima being somewhere in-between (lances). That's not even going into the special effects some spells have such as weapon effectiveness or life draining. If magic user vs magic user conflicts are not deemed relevant, the stats can be tweaked. It's not like anyone is going to say "Don't bother fighting physical fighters with physical fighters. Physical fighters just exist to fight low defense units like mages".

I can't agree - magic user vs. magic user fights are not relevant as is because of the aforementioned nuance about mages being a minority in the enemy's army (and the player's as well), as well as their generally having high resistance, which means swearing fealty to the magic triangle generally gets you nowhere fast... Also, physical classes tend to be more diverse than magic classes, for the most part.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Radiant head]

Yeah I don't understand the point of mage vs mage fights to begin with. Mage attacking mage is like thief attacking general.

[Ryo]

I don't mind MT returning. Though I think variety of magic, with each type having distinct advantages and weaknesses, and relative balance between the magic types (i.e no magic should be more "useless" or "OP" than the other) are more important and should be considered priority.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Ryo

[Paper Jam]

Was Light Magic ever really gone? FE11 and 12 had Aura and Starlight, and FE13 had the Book of Naga.

Granted, those games had no Magic Triangle.

[NekoKnight]

No. I just don't see why the magic triangle needs to return when mages are a minority in both the player's and enemy's armies as is,

I can't agree - magic user vs. magic user fights are not relevant as is because of the aforementioned nuance about mages being a minority in the enemy's army (and the player's as well), as well as their generally having high resistance, which means swearing fealty to the magic triangle generally gets you nowhere fast... Also, physical classes tend to be more diverse than magic classes, for the most part.

Then I hate you forever! Just kidding.

I get your point about physical fighters having a lot of diversity and magic users being a minority, but it wouldn't hurt to have the magic triangle in the game. I like the game in it's current form, but if I were to make my own FIre Emblem, I would have more magic users, honestly.

Yeah I don't understand the point of mage vs mage fights to begin with. Mage attacking mage is like thief attacking general.

It's not the same. A thief attacking a general is asking to get slaughtered. Mages can actually be effective against other mages precisely because they won't take as much damage. Your units have higher stats than the enemy (generally) so you can do a decent amount of damage to the enemy to allow a melee fighter to finish them off in one blow. You can also use them to tackle targets with difficult to combat magic like Nosferatu and Luna. A lot less intimidating if you have a monk on hand, and that's thanks to the magic triangle.

Was Light Magic ever really gone? FE11 and 12 had Aura and Starlight, and FE13 had the Book of Naga.

Granted, those games had no Magic Triangle.

Those tomes were either rare or only available late game so they were mostly absent (dark magic in RD was also disappointingly rare). Plus the absence of the magic triangle and variety of magic classes made their "light" type as irrelevant as ice magic in Blazing Sword.

Edited February 23, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Shadow Mir]

I don't mind MT returning. Though I think variety of magic, with each type having distinct advantages and weaknesses, and relative balance between the magic types (i.e no magic should be more "useless" or "OP" than the other) are more important and should be considered priority.

What you listed was in general the fatal flaw of the magic triangle - why swear fealty to it when in general one magic type is superior to the others (Case in point: FE4)???

Then I hate you forever! Just kidding.

I get your point about physical fighters having a lot of diversity and magic users being a minority, but it wouldn't hurt to have the magic triangle in the game. I like the game in it's current form, but if I were to make my own FIre Emblem, I would have more magic users, honestly.

It's not the same. A thief attacking a general is asking to get slaughtered. Mages can actually be effective against other mages precisely because they won't take as much damage. Your units have higher stats than the enemy (generally) so you can do a decent amount of damage to the enemy to allow a melee fighter to finish them off in one blow. You can also use them to tackle targets with difficult to combat magic like Nosferatu and Luna. A lot less intimidating if you have a monk on hand, and that's thanks to the magic triangle.

The part where your units have higher stats than the enemy is more of a point AGAINST the magic triangle, I'd imagine... Also, I never really saw the magic triangle as necessary for Nosferatu, given that it's so heavy that enemies using it are just begging to get doubled, and often do, which undoes the healing that comes with it (assuming it actually hits), and (FE7) Luna's broken to the point where light magic users aren't safe, ESPECIALLY Lucius and his **** luck.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Irysa]

Was Light Magic ever really gone? FE11 and 12 had Aura and Starlight, and FE13 had the Book of Naga.

Granted, those games had no Magic Triangle.

Those are all rare/exclusive Tomes. I just want to be able to cast Divine or something on people, even if the difference is mostly aesthetic.

I think that if reclassing and promoted class weapon rank bases are adjusted though that there's precedent for having a variety of types of magic exclusive to different classes, even if we don't reintroduced the magic triangle. For example, in previous games, Bishop would have a higher staff rank than Sage. But to separate the two a bit better I don't see a problem in reverting back to a system where tome rank is universal (rather than being separated by the type of magic), but different magic classes are locked to different types of magic.

Sorcs as full on offensive units with no staves and powerful magic like ruin and nosferatu, Bishops as less offensive statistically but with more base staff rank and some unique magic (honestly awakening would have been a good place to bring back the slayer skill vs risen as an inherant trait for light magic really), whilst Sages work as a good inbetween with strong staff utility, decent offensive stats and elemental magic for dealing with fliers.

[RedEyedDrake]

Having posted a little something on the subject in a different topic in the general section, I'll just say that, if anything, not only should these things "return" but they should become more complex as well. A study based magic system shouldn't have simple game mechanics. More elements, more triggers, different leans among the elements, encouraging more thought into when to use and when not to use something, ect. Tomes should definetly get more of that.

[Shadow Mir]

Having posted a little something on the subject in a different topic in the general section, I'll just say that, if anything, not only should these things "return" but they should become more complex as well. A study based magic system shouldn't have simple game mechanics. More elements, more triggers, different leans among the elements, encouraging more thought into when to use and when not to use something, ect. Tomes should definetly get more of that.

The only thing I can see this accomplishing is making the whole system a giant clusterfuck. Well, that, and completely shaking the balance of the game.

[RedEyedDrake]

By that token why not go all the way and only have the generic A-E rank weapons for each type and some basic staves and call it a day? Do away with anti-mount and anti-armor weapons as well as the Killer family, ect.

Naturally, any increase in complexity should be done with the intent of increasing the variety of possible gameplay scenarios. This will in turn enrich the strategic aspect of the game. The point of the games is planning things out so I don't think more options to use in your plans has to be a bad thing.

[Irysa]

I don't really think the magic triangle really adds that much to the strategy of the game though, that's the problem. I think rather than creating the arbitary triangles, making magic more distinct by making it have more varied effects (it's goddamn magic after all) is the way to go.