Classes that need a buff/nerf?

[Jotari]

FE10 also gives bow users the best weapon in the game so they can easily take it back in the last few maps.

[Snowy_One]

Knight's problems stem from the fact that the one thing they do well, defend, is done acceptably by plenty of other classes who don't have movement or speed issues. Even on defend-style maps in makes far more sense to deploy a paladin who, while maybe not AS durable, can easily take what's needed and kill back than deploy a general and miss the kill. Generals need some spice to their offensive abilities to become viable.

[FlipFlopMist]

Yeah, unlike how simple it is to make thieves and archers better(give us back steal :c), there's just no situations where a Knightl is really viable to bring without making the entire level gimmicky and forced.

Why not make them a steamroller? They get a on kill buff of increased mobility, damage, and health, that will fade away after a few turns, but can stack up to three times? Completing the level resets the buffs. It doesn't remove their unique trait of being slow to the battle or make them lose their tankiness, but it lets have a offensive presence that would matter in later games...

Not the best idea more than likely and I can see a few reasons why it probably wouldn't work, but suggesting something can make others have ideas. :T

[Jedi]

6 and 10 do not have rewarded Bow use. Shinon eclipsed the other bow users who are much, much worse than the rest of the cast.

6 didn't favor bows at all. 12 had the same syndrome as L+ for awakening where player phase became much more valuable than the enemy phase for reverse. But bows don't prosper on non-top-of-the-line difficulties. That should be identified as a problem.

Um, Snipers are excellent in 6 and so are the Nomads, you remember the accuracy issues? and how the Brave bow is one of the best weapons in fe6?

12 has huge uses for them even before L+ don't even compare fe12's difficulty to fe13's fake difficulty. You know reclass? Snipers have a base C bows and can snipe huge dragons, and are one of the better classes even in L, Horsemen are meanwhile the ABSOLUTE BEST, despite their terrible bases why? Bows and good Caps

[Vascela]

Um, Snipers are excellent in 6 and so are the Nomads, you remember the accuracy issues? and how the Brave bow is one of the best weapons in fe6?

12 has huge uses for them even before L+ don't even compare fe12's difficulty to fe13's fake difficulty. You know reclass? Snipers have a base C bows and can snipe huge dragons, and are one of the better classes even in L, Horsemen are meanwhile the ABSOLUTE BEST, despite their terrible bases why? Bows and good Caps

Snipers are not excellent in FE6. Excellent is reserved for weapons like Durandal (unless excellent to you means mediocre). No bow-locked unit is useful compared to the cast. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you only get 1 Brave Bow in the game. IDK why you would tack on the word "excellent" to a high weapon level required item from a very bad class lock. Work your way up to B bows only to get a weapon that's nowhere close to the reputation of other weapons to get Hammerne'd.

Or do you "remember" something else about Brave Bow in FE6 that I'm not remembering?

You call FE13's difficulty fake while running to FE12's "real" difficulty. I acknowledge bows are very useful in player phase dominant strats (as to your "real" difficulty reverse as well as the "fake" difficulty 13). Even in 13, L+ is beaten in a completely opposite typical enemy phase method anyway (which is more efficient in RTA standards as well as for LTC).

Edited March 10, 2015 by Vascela

[Jedi]

Snipers are not excellent in FE6. Excellent is reserved for weapons like Durandal (unless excellent to you means mediocre). No bow-locked unit is useful compared to the cast. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but you only get 1 Brave Bow in the game. IDK why you would tack on the word "excellent" to a high weapon level required item from a very bad class lock. Work your way up to B bows only to get a weapon that's nowhere close to the reputation of other weapons to get Hammerne'd.

Or do you "remember" something else about Brave Bow in FE6 that I'm not remembering?

Igrene and Klein have the rank to use the brave bow instantly and it's not difficult to get Shin or Sue to that level either. You seem to have also ignored dondon's 0% run which highlights Igrene and Shin as two of the better units in the game.

[Vascela]

Igrene and Klein have the rank to use the brave bow instantly and it's not difficult to get Shin or Sue to that level either. You seem to have also ignored dondon's 0% run which highlights Igrene and Shin as two of the better units in the game.

Yes, you get 2 to potentially 4 units who can share a 30 use bow (assuming bow lock relevance, disregarding levels on swords for Nomadic Trooper). Unless you want to Hammerne that instead of the top-of-the-line weaponry (such as Durandal).

I may have ignored dondon's 0% run because it is not terribly relevant. What happens when you have regular, average growths? You have units who perform much better than Bow users. There's a reason why averages exist. We can see an objective standard of characters and how they should perform.

[Jotari]

You don't necessarily have to field every member of a class for that class to be considered good. Brave Bow is still pretty awesome even if you're only fielding one sniper.

[Vascela]

You don't necessarily have to field every member of a class for that class to be considered good. Brave Bow is still pretty awesome even if you're only fielding one sniper.

The issue is that Brave Bow isn't held in the same light as the strongest weapons (it's still a good weapon, but it simply isn't above the rest). On top of being very limited (only 30 use and definitely not seeing repair).

[omega zero]

Has it ever been discussed why some players consider L+ as 'fake' difficulty? By fake, I'm thinking people mean poorly designed. If it has been discussed, can I get a link to the topic? I don't have much of an opinion of it either way, but I guess things like Luna+, Hawkeye and huge enemy stats forcibly take away player options (Def, Avo, unit viability, etc). Rather than letting players keep those options but still requiring more meticulous planning and gameplay compared to lower difficulties.

[-Cynthia-]

Yes, you get 2 to potentially 4 units who can share a 30 use bow (assuming bow lock relevance, disregarding levels on swords for Nomadic Trooper). Unless you want to Hammerne that instead of the top-of-the-line weaponry (such as Durandal).

I may have ignored dondon's 0% run because it is not terribly relevant. What happens when you have regular, average growths? You have units who perform much better than Bow users. There's a reason why averages exist. We can see an objective standard of characters and how they should perform.

Most units in FE6 don't change much from a FE6 efficiency run with growths to one without growths- aside from a few cases like Lance/Alan most characters are defined more by their bases and weapon ranks. Shin is probably what one would be considered a "growth unit" anyway and he's commonly used in both(and should probably never use swords).

Yeah I guess the bow users aren't on par with Miledy and Percival, but they still have significant uses.

[Jotari]

Has it ever been discussed why some players consider L+ as 'fake' difficulty? By fake, I'm thinking people mean poorly designed. If it has been discussed, can I get a link to the topic? I don't have much of an opinion of it either way, but I guess things like Luna+, Hawkeye and huge enemy stats forcibly take away player options (Def, Avo, unit viability, etc). Rather than letting players keep those options but still requiring more meticulous planning and gameplay compared to lower difficulties.

I believe the biggest issue people have with it is that the layout of skills in each map is random meaning you can get maps that are literally impossible to beat and coming up with a definite strategy is near impossible without resetting until the enemies in specific areas are using specific skills. It's certainly been talked about and length but I can't remember any threads that specifically discussed it off the top of my head.

[Magical Glace]

FE6 bows are accurate and decently strong in a game with a ton of flyers for a x3 damage multiplier. Only two weapon types (Anima and Swords) can really match that, since Light doesn't get any decent users.

Actually, every problem Wolt has in FE6 regards his bases and to a lesser extent growths being poor and not being bowlocked. And I make an effort to use him every run >~>

Edit: L+ is dumb. Jotari outlined why. It does not help you can't get most of thse skills yourself without save hax

Edited March 10, 2015 by Glaceon Armamentalist

[Vascela]

I'm not exactly trying to say Bow users are completely useless (don't get me wrong). But they aren't performing better than a large portion of the cast--especially due to a single weapon that isn't getting repaired. Of course they have some significance, but that amount isn't very large compared to many, many units.

As for L+, the difficulty is no longer "if X unit has Y skills reset the map." Granted, there are still stat benchmarks, but that didn't stop Lunatic Reverse from being a "real" difficulty.

[Magical Glace]

I'm not exactly trying to say Bow users are completely useless (don't get me wrong). But they aren't performing better than a large portion of the cast--especially due to a single weapon that isn't getting repaired. Of course they have some significance, but that amount isn't very large compared to many, many units.

As for L+, the difficulty is no longer "if X unit has Y skills reset the map." Granted, there are still stat benchmarks, but that didn't stop Lunatic Reverse from being a "real" difficulty.

So Percival, Rutoga, and Melody.

Cool story bro.

[omega zero]

From what I've gathered though, it's possible for something hard/challenging to be poorly designed.

However, IIRC, I've seen people say that the variability in enemy skills only forces resets often near the start. Later on, you may have to restart, but it won't be as often.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that higher difficulties should be characterized by better AI, not entirely by asymmetrical skills/stats/forges. But that's a tall order, and I doubt it'll ever be the case in FE.

[Vascela]

So Percival, Rutoga, and Melody.

Cool story bro.

Please make the argument that Wolt is pulling more weight than Lance/Alan/Marcus at the beginning.

Or how Dorothy is being more useful than Dieck. Or how she is doing better than Treck and Noah?

Or how Sue is doing better than Lugh and Thany?

I can link you to the recruitment page, it's a list of a bunch of characters who are doing much better than bow users.

[Irysa]

Having 8 mov and being mounted and being able to double basically anything pretty accurately + having killer bow/brave bow access and massacring fliers in a game with annoying ass ones is enough to put Sue and Shin above most units in FE6. They're only realistically being outdone by other 8 mov units, none of what Lugh does is better than Sue simply because she has a mount. Having a mount period in FE6 is incredibly useful. Mounted longbow access is also very helpful in a few scenarios.

Like lets put this in perspective, you don't have to SPAM the Brave Bow for it to be useful, the point is that BASE Igrene/Klein or instant promoted Shin literally decimate some of the toughest enemy types in the game and ORKO lots of other enemy types/have a good shot at ORKOing other enemy types in a game where it gets prohobitively difficult to do so the further the game goes on. Additionally, Sacae has a ton of 2 range only nomad enemies who are fast and accurate, and only bow users can get good enemy phases vs them.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Irysa

[Magical Glace]

Please make the argument that Wolt is pulling more weight than Lance/Alan/Marcus at the beginning.

Or how Dorothy is being more useful than Dieck. Or how she is doing better than Treck and Noah?

Or how Sue is doing better than Lugh and Thany?

I can link you to the recruitment page, it's a list of a bunch of characters who are doing much better than bow users.

I'm not going to argue Wolt/Dorothy being good. I use Wolt because he's my waifu favorite character. Dorothy can die in a hole somewhere for all I care.

Sue takes a bit of effort, and I personally dislike using her due to her Str, and I prefer both those units to Sue. Later game bow users are better has been the point the whole time.

It boils down to the unit in question in FE6, but Bows in and of themselves are NOT the issue with these three. Wolt has low bases, as does Dorothy, and Sue's as strong as your average twig. Kliene, Shin, and Igrene lack these traits.

[Ownagepuffs]

>Bows aren't useful in FE6.

Lol. Okay.

[Vascela]

>Bows aren't useful in FE6.

Lol. Okay.

Instead of "Lol. Okay." maybe you should consider that FE6 gives much more favor to non-Bow users... than Bow users.

I'm not saying Brave Bow is worthless trash. I'm saying that a 30 use bow that is not the most expendable item in the game isn't the determining factor of "usefulness." The early game bow users are very much so not as good as the non-bow users (unless you want to make the stance Wolt is better than Lance, Dieck, etc, be my guest). There's simply more value in non-Bow units, something that I believe falls under map design boons where bows are not greatly rewarded.

Edited March 11, 2015 by Vascela

[lazydoggamer]

Instead of "Lol. Okay." maybe you should consider that FE6 gives much more favor to non-Bow users... than Bow users.

I'm not saying Brave Bow is worthless trash. I'm saying that a 30 use bow that is not the most expendable item in the game isn't the determining factor of "usefulness." The early game bow users are very much so not as good as the non-bow users (unless you want to make the stance Wolt is better than Lance, Dieck, etc, be my guest). There's simply more value in non-Bow units, something that I believe falls under map design boons where bows are not greatly rewarded.

The Brave Bow isn't the only reason why bow users are good in FE6. They're good because they're one of the only weapon types that can reliably hit enemies from 2 range and they have type effectiveness against the hordes of wyverns the game throws at you. Yes the early bow users Wolt and Dorothy are trash and Sue is meh , but Shin, Klein, and Igrene are all great by virtue of their bases alone meaning they can start murdering wyverns from the moment they join and provide accurate damage from 2 range, something most of your other units can't do.

Edited March 11, 2015 by lazydoggamer

[Jedi]

And for what its worth, Wolt can at least chip at those 30 HP soldiers in the first few maps.

[Ownagepuffs]

Anything I could say has already been stated in much, much better terms by Irysa. Try reading the post. It may do you some good.

[Vascela]

Javelins (and as an extension, Hand Axes) have always been the more dominant 2 range physical weapons simply my the 1-2 nature (has nothing to do with damage or hit). And even Irysa will concede (in his own post) that mounted bow only holds a few valued moments (which I cannot think of a single instance where it would be terribly helpful).

Being able to clear 15 enemies in the game (possibly less if you don't ORKO) with almost the exact same means as someone else (as if Bows were the only given Brave to ORKO) != being extraordinary. Not being able to compete on the norm is the issue. A mounted bow user is still a bow user. A mounted lance user shows prowess.