Classes that need a buff/nerf?

[Thor Odinson]

Aside from that, there's also the part where Awakening has pretty much no situations where Pass would come in handy.

Pass would be nice in L+ if you play bowmode and was something I've considered; The drawback is Assassin as a class has too low of a defense to really warrant spending 15 levels in L+. That ultimately deterred me from going into it (and instead went Bow Knight instead; it's marginally tankier enough to be serviceable) but there were times where I wish I had it. Chapter 18 and 21, for example.

Sniper itself isn't a bad class; it was my MU's ending class for L+ and spamming AT double bow on that mode is amazing. People who start in Archer just need significantly better bases.

I feel like Swordmaster really need something over Assassin statistically in terms of being an end class. Assassin's a far better final class since it has better caps in important stats, a secondary weapon that allows more reliable physical ranged damage and Pavise bypass, and better support bonuses. There's really no reason to stay in SM after you grab the skills and get out.

Perhaps if skills are tied to class instead...

Edited March 3, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[NekoKnight]

I feel like Swordmaster really need something over Assassin statistically in terms of being an end class. Assassin's a far better final class since it has better caps in important stats, a secondary weapon that allows more reliable physical ranged damage and Pavise bypass, and better support bonuses. There's really no reason to stay in SM after you grab the skills and get out.

Perhaps if skills are tied to class instead...

I think for the solo weapon users, they should have more ready access to unique weapons. Swordmasters should get exclusive high crit swords like the Shamshir and Wo Dao.

I actually do think skills should be tied to the class, at least for the main game.

[Jiac]

A Class that needs to get buffed Serks More Opness

Fixed I meant FE 13 ;p

[Bavalurst]

I think for the solo weapon users, they should have more ready access to unique weapons. Swordmasters should get exclusive high crit swords like the Shamshir and Wo Dao.

I actually do think skills should be tied to the class, at least for the main game.

I have mixed feelings about this. I personally loved that I could mix skills so that I could 'build' a unit. Which in return causes less class distinction. The only reason you'd pick a class now is because of the preferred stats.

Imo, this feature together with the pairing system causes things to go out of hand. The unit's stats rise far above the enemies and with the dual strike/block thing, you can make an undefeatable unit.

Anway, I liked the building thing. They just need to balance the game around it, if they decide to do it again.

[MacLovin]

Archers -shit strength.

Armour Knights- lol. like we even need to discuss why.

Warriors- They're kinda mediocre in most fe games, discounting tellius.

[Self-Keeping Secret]

Trickster is my favorite class in the entire series, but being locked into arguably to worst non-bow weapon with both below-average defensive and offensive caps is pretty dire. They don't really have anything over the other physical weapon staff users. War Monk/Cleric have good 40/40 offenses and respectable defenses, Falcon Knights have the good skill and speed and 8 mov unaffected by terrain, and Brides have two weapons and good skills. Trickster has above average skill and speed, but even then their speed is lower than Falcon Knights . They don't even have any cool skills to merit going out of your way for, so IMO either Swords as a whole should get a buff, or give the Trickster some more tools to work with, which could come in the form of good skills, a new weapon, or more respectable caps.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Trickeroo

[Ownagepuffs]

Trickster does have good skills. Lucky 7 and Acrobat are ridiculously good. It's just that the class itself is too fucking awful to warrant getting them.

[Self-Keeping Secret]

I guess I'm just thinking a bit more from a high difficulty, postgame perspective, where a lot of enemies have +Hit abilities. The fact that Lucky Seven just poofs away after a mere 7 turns is underwhelming, and I'm not a big fan of Acrobat if it means isolating a unit to a space that others will have trouble accessing to provide support.

[NinjaMonkey]

Perhaps if skills are tied to class instead...

I thought that was already the case...

[Magical Glace]

I thought that was already the case...

He mens you can only have a class's skills in that class

As in, you can't just be a Dark Flyer, grab Galeforks, go back to Falconknight and still have Galeforks.

[NekoKnight]

I have mixed feelings about this. I personally loved that I could mix skills so that I could 'build' a unit. Which in return causes less class distinction. The only reason you'd pick a class now is because of the preferred stats.

That is the primary concern I'd like to see addressed in the next game. Yes, building your own units is fun but 1. They get too strong for the main game and 2. some classes are obsolete after getting their skills. I'd rather have distinct skills and classes than endless reclassing. If reclassing were limited before the post-game, or New Game+, I feel this would be the most balanced and interesting.

[Thor Odinson]

He mens you can only have a class's skills in that class

As in, you can't just be a Dark Flyer, grab Galeforks, go back to Falconknight and still have Galeforks.

This is correct.

Maybe a mix between personal skill per character and class skill per class, that way you can have each character being a unique take on that class they're reclassed to

maybe

idk how well it'd work with the infinite reclass FE13 engine since I came up with it for a project im doing with the traditional 20/20 levelling system but

[Czar_Yoshi]

Try giving classes their standard Lv.1->10 and 5->15 skills that are transferable and whatnot, then giving them new skills that are tied to promoted classes and only active when at Lv.20 (such as crit bonuses for SMs, even more range for Snipers and stuff).

[Ownagepuffs]

I guess I'm just thinking a bit more from a high difficulty, postgame perspective, where a lot of enemies have +Hit abilities. The fact that Lucky Seven just poofs away after a mere 7 turns is underwhelming, and I'm not a big fan of Acrobat if it means isolating a unit to a space that others will have trouble accessing to provide support.

Post game has no use for it sure, but you'd be surprised how much avoid you can get in game with proper pair up in game. Avo +20 is absolutely massive and 7 turns is nothing to scoff at. Most in game maps are completed in like 5 turns because of how close the enemies are to you and how quickly they start moving. Acrobat would really help in terrain heavy maps.

Trickster is still bad anyway. Good skills alone an incentive does not make.

Try giving classes their standard Lv.1->10 and 5->15 skills that are transferable and whatnot, then giving them new skills that are tied to promoted classes and only active when at Lv.20 (such as crit bonuses for SMs, even more range for Snipers and stuff).

A part of me wants to scrap reclassing and bring back 3rd tiers. Branched 3rd tiers. Falco Knight --> Seraph Knight and Dark Flier can go into something else. Things like that.

[Bavalurst]

That is the primary concern I'd like to see addressed in the next game. Yes, building your own units is fun but 1. They get too strong for the main game and 2. some classes are obsolete after getting their skills. I'd rather have distinct skills and classes than endless reclassing. If reclassing were limited before the post-game, or New Game+, I feel this would be the most balanced and interesting.

I agree with your two concerns. But limiting the reclassing option till post game is a... lazy(?) solution.

I'd like for the developers to keep open minded and invent new things. For instance, they can expand on the availble tier 2 classes (4/5 instead of 2 while removing second seal) so that you have plenty of freedom. Or build the skills so that they have an increased effectiveness when used on the class of origin. For instance, pavise blocks 20% of damage, but on the general class it will block 50% etc. This way you can regain class distinction, while keeping the reclassing option.

[Jotari]

Hmm. Maybe instead of removing reclassing entirely until postgame, make Second Seals super rare, like you only see one or two throughout the game. So you have to think carefully about who you reclass since getting back to your original class might not be possible.

[Shadow Mir]

Post game has no use for it sure, but you'd be surprised how much avoid you can get in game with proper pair up in game. Avo +20 is absolutely massive and 7 turns is nothing to scoff at. Most in game maps are completed in like 5 turns because of how close the enemies are to you and how quickly they start moving. Acrobat would really help in terrain heavy maps.

Trickster is still bad anyway. Good skills alone an incentive does not make.

A part of me wants to scrap reclassing and bring back 3rd tiers. Branched 3rd tiers. Falco Knight --> Seraph Knight and Dark Flier can go into something else. Things like that.

The big issue I have with third tiers, though I liked them, is implementation. You'd need a really long game to justify those, in all likelihood...

Edited March 6, 2015 by Levant Caprice

[Ownagepuffs]

To be honest, reclassing is not that big of a deal unless you grind. Then the problem lies with grinding.

Second seals *are* actually pretty rare and somewhat cost prohibitive. People fail to see the implications of class changes such as changed pair up bonuses and loss of weapon ranks. Weapon rank bonus is a big deal in FE13.

Edit: That is a good point wrt 3rd tier, but Klok also brought up making enemies give more exp, or reducing the exp penalty for being higher leveled. It's possible to scale the game around their use, especially if there is a post game too.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[Zerosabers]

What if the one skill was tied to the class and one to the actual unit? Like going thief gives you locktouch but only when classed as a thief or one of the promotions, and the +1 movement skill stays unless you remove it yourself.

[NekoKnight]

I agree with your two concerns. But limiting the reclassing option till post game is a... lazy(?) solution.

I'd like for the developers to keep open minded and invent new things. For instance, they can expand on the availble tier 2 classes (4/5 instead of 2 while removing second seal) so that you have plenty of freedom. Or build the skills so that they have an increased effectiveness when used on the class of origin. For instance, pavise blocks 20% of damage, but on the general class it will block 50% etc. This way you can regain class distinction, while keeping the reclassing option.

Your idea behind limiting the effectiveness of skills when not used on their native class is intriguing. Your suggestion would be a step in the right direction but another reason I'm opposed to reclassing is that I feel it detracts from the distinctiveness of the characters themselves. What's so special about your wyvern rider when several characters can class change into it anyway?

Hmm. Maybe instead of removing reclassing entirely until postgame, make Second Seals super rare, like you only see one or two throughout the game. So you have to think carefully about who you reclass since getting back to your original class might not be possible.

I don't have a problem with this, as long as they can't be purchased in the main game,

To be honest, reclassing is not that big of a deal unless you grind. Then the problem lies with grinding.

They could make it so your level doesn't reset after reclassing.

[Ownagepuffs]

That would kill any incentive to reclass. Part of the benefits of reclassing is taking advantage of adjusted growths and get skills. Levels not resetting after reclassing worked in FEDS because there were no skills.

To address you Wyvern Rider question, Cherche is an amazing wyvern rider because she starts that way. Sully, LQ, and Panne have to pay 2500g (that's a lot), reset their weapon ranks, and be level 10 in order to become Wyvern Riders. People fail to put this into perspective.

We're also forgetting that not every character has access to every class unlike FEDS. Uniqueness comes in the form of their reclass options.

[Bavalurst]

Your idea behind limiting the effectiveness of skills when not used on their native class is intriguing. Your suggestion would be a step in the right direction but another reason I'm opposed to reclassing is that I feel it detracts from the distinctiveness of the characters themselves. What's so special about your wyvern rider when several characters can class change into it anyway?

To address you Wyvern Rider question, Cherche is an amazing wyvern rider because she starts that way. Sully, LQ, and Panne have to pay 2500g (that's a lot), reset their weapon ranks, and be level 10 in order to become Wyvern Riders. People fail to put this into perspective.

We're also forgetting that not every character has access to every class unlike FEDS. Uniqueness comes in the form of their reclass options.

Exacly, there's so much to think about, because there are multiple perspectives.

Think about this. Why is fire emblem so unique? Is it because of the chess-like gameplay? The amazing stories and characters? The simple but outstanding rpg mechanics?

I think it got so unique because of the attachment to the characters. Everybody knows that every character is unique, stats/gameplay wise as story wise. This, right here, is why reclassing creates problems.

Think about a situation without reclassing. I got a thief. If the thief dies, there is no way for me to cheat chests or doors. I've lost a character, but also an invaluable asset to my team. The same goes for mages, bishops, knights, everything.

Now about a situation with reclassing. I got a thief. I know that swordfighter is the most efficient class. I reclass to the swordfighter, keeping the skills of the thief. I now built a character that can do everything a thief does, and can also has a better chance to win in battle. Do you see what kind of situation this creates, if this goes the same for all other characters?

I am significantly more willing to discard units that have low stat caps or growth rates (I can reclass anyway). I am more willing to let weak characters die because they can be replaced. I am capable of creating game-easifying (is this a word?) units. Causing me to think less about my gameplay decisions and causing the game to 'dumb down'.

Reclassing is overall a difficult element to implement and balance properly. It is a fun option because it gives more freedom to the player. But do we actually want that freedom in fire emblem?

[Respite&Nepenthe]

Tricksters: good skills, cool design, but really no reason to stay in that class.

Gryphon Rider: not memorable or useful at all. (Cool look, though.)

[Ownagepuffs]

Exacly, there's so much to think about, because there are multiple perspectives.

Think about this. Why is fire emblem so unique? Is it because of the chess-like gameplay? The amazing stories and characters? The simple but outstanding rpg mechanics?

I think it got so unique because of the attachment to the characters. Everybody knows that every character is unique, stats/gameplay wise as story wise. This, right here, is why reclassing creates problems.

Think about a situation without reclassing. I got a thief. If the thief dies, there is no way for me to cheat chests or doors. I've lost a character, but also an invaluable asset to my team. The same goes for mages, bishops, knights, everything.

Now about a situation with reclassing. I got a thief. I know that swordfighter is the most efficient class. I reclass to the swordfighter, keeping the skills of the thief. I now built a character that can do everything a thief does, and can also has a better chance to win in battle. Do you see what kind of situation this creates, if this goes the same for all other characters?

I am significantly more willing to discard units that have low stat caps or growth rates (I can reclass anyway). I am more willing to let weak characters die because they can be replaced. I am capable of creating game-easifying (is this a word?) units. Causing me to think less about my gameplay decisions and causing the game to 'dumb down'.

Reclassing is overall a difficult element to implement and balance properly. It is a fun option because it gives more freedom to the player. But do we actually want that freedom in fire emblem?

Sort of missed my point. The uniqueness does not come from just being a thief in your example. Your proposed unit is unique because the are likely the only unit to have both thief and myrmidon trees. This character you speak of both applies to Gaius and Lon'qu. They are the only characters capable of carrying thief skills into the myrmidon tree. No one else can do that, thus Gaius and Lon'qu are unique. Going further, they both have a completely different third class tree (LQ has Wyvern and Gaius has Fighter). Going even further, these units possess different weapon ranks and base stats. There is no loss of "uniqueness" with reclassing with the way Awakening handled it. FE11/12 had this problem, but units were still valued by their bases, weapon ranks, and growths. Swordmaster!Linde comes to mind for her Levin Sword shenanigans.

A lot more goes into a character than just their base class. It is not possible to create the super unit you propose via reclassing without significant amounts of grinding. Playing through Lunatic mode no grind, I can count on 1 hand the amount of second seals I used. Mainly getting Maribelle to Falco Knight so she could use flying staves and turning Cynthia into a cavalier.

[Masadeer]

Archers: give me shinon or RNG exploited and lughnasadh leonardo (cuz he looks cool even if he's slow as hell....) Also, i want ballistas and onagers cuz they're fun as hell to use. even if they suck.

Assassin/swordmaster: Assassin, lose some str, just enough to be below Swordmaster or, swordmaster, gain enough str to just be over assassins. It doesn't sit right with me when assassins have higher Str than swordmasters.........

Dancer: gain some AOE on that dance, dammit! If you can only have once dancer he/she should at least be useful!

Berserker/fighter: sorry honestly can't tell the difference between you two (in awakening) besides their rather useful passives. Probably because fighters only get a bow as their other useable weapon(let's be honest, who uses a bow instead of a throwing axe on their fighter?)

Trickster: do something ANYTHING. Have an ACTUAL PURPOSE BESIDES HEALING, AND ALL TERRAIN NULLIFICATION. maybe have some field effects.

i would also like an engineer class. One that sets up/ removes field advantages, puts down ballisate etc. (maybe rig the arena, change the odds, sabotage the opponent?)

Halberdiers: i want them back. the lance equivalent of swordmasters? Hell yes.

Also. I want my Radiant dawn Ledge mechanics back, dammit! Ledges, the one thing(besides Shinon) that could probably make archers worthwhile.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Masadeer