CT075 Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 i'd argue that aless deserves to be bottom of top and levin!arthur is somewhere in the middle-top of High Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Seliph is the best unit bar none, assuming maximum snowball. Aless is a clutch unit during the latter half in chapter 10, the only time Seliph will really need help. Leaf and the dancers have unique utility, so those four should make up tier 1. Tier 2 should be the others, maybe including Oifaye for clearing the path to Ishtor in chapter 7 and still being able to kill things all the way to endgame, or Claude!Sety for chapter 9 rescue shenanigans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 Celice, the Dancers, Leaf and Aless are pretty safe bets for top tier that likely nobody will disagree with. I'm not sure about Oifaye though. While he's probably not on the same level as these characters he's still one level above the 'ordinary' high tier units like Beo!Delmud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 I'm not sure if we should value earlier rescue staff access too much. I think the turn count we're looking at for efficiency is ~270, and you really don't need the rescue staff in chapter 9 for that. Oifaye should definitely be in high tier though, my 0% growths run gave me a new found appreciation of just how strong he is at the beginning. Though he does eventually fall behind, his early and mid game contributions warrant at least high tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) Eh, people overrate the extent by which he falls behind though. His bases are good, his growth rates are solid and Pursuit + Critical is a nice set of skills. With a good Sword he'll still do fine in Ch.10. So by saying he 'eventually' falls behind it basically means that he's not OP enough to fuck up shit in the final chapter. Considering the amount of win he unleashes on his way there though and the fact that he doesn't require any major resources to do so I think it'd be silly to not put him at least somewhere near the top of high tier Fin is the unit in gen 2 that truly 'falls behind' but he's still probably a solid high tier character overall. Edited March 10, 2015 by Yojinbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 10, 2015 Share Posted March 10, 2015 fyi, Oifaye's already in the top of high tier, I'm wondering whether he should join the Holsety/Balmung group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Probably not. He's very useful, but there are a lot of units who can do what he does. By chapter 7 Celice is already amazing, then you Fin (who is really good until chapter 10 if you trained him) and Aless and eventually Leif. He's just one great mount among many, which I don't think warrants moving him that high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Horace Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 In my opinion, Oifaye is better than Shanan just because he has a horse. Sure Shanan can kill anything he reaches, but he has to reach it first. And like I said earlier wrt to Levin!Arthur, just killing something normally is the same as overkilling it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 So do you agree on this changes Top Celice Leif Aless Oifaye Shanan High Levin!arthur Beowulf!Delmud etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Shanan should not be top tier. Replace them with the dancers imo. Probably not. He's very useful, but there are a lot of units who can do what he does. By chapter 7 Celice is already amazing, then you Fin (who is really good until chapter 10 if you trained him) and Aless and eventually Leif. He's just one great mount among many, which I don't think warrants moving him that high. I'm allergic to the "god among gods" argument. Oifaye is more or less immortal in Ch.6 [top tier performance], can solo the whole southern part of Ch.7 [top tier performance], dominates enemies in Ch.8 and Ch.9 [high tier performance] and is still very much competent in Ch.10. [~high-mid tier performance]. Depending on whether he's given access to Light Sword crithax he can be reasonably useful in the final chapter too. He may not be able to overkill opponents in the same way Celice and Aless do but he still gets the job done flawlessly for a good 3/4th of the second generation and he's not too shabby after that either. Does the fact that there are other units around him really mean that his capabilities should be ranked lower? I could argue that Aless isn't that good because Celice, Oifaye, Fin and a promoted Levin!Arthur who can dominate maps without his help. Does that mean that Aless isn't top tier then? Obviously, he still is because the "god among god" logic doesn't apply. Neither for Aless, nor for Oifaye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Shanan should not be top tier. Replace them with the dancers imo. I'm allergic to the "god among gods" argument. Oifaye is more or less immortal in Ch.6 [top tier performance], can solo the whole southern part of Ch.7 [top tier performance], dominates enemies in Ch.8 and Ch.9 [high tier performance] and is still very much competent in Ch.10. [~high-mid tier performance]. Depending on whether he's given access to Light Sword crithax he can be reasonably useful in the final chapter too. He may not be able to overkill opponents in the same way Celice and Aless do but he still gets the job done flawlessly for a good 3/4th of the second generation and he's not too shabby after that either. Does the fact that there are other units around him really mean that his capabilities should be ranked lower? I could argue that Aless isn't that good because Celice, Oifaye, Fin and a promoted Levin!Arthur who can dominate maps without his help. Does that mean that Aless isn't top tier then? Obviously, he still is because the "god among god" logic doesn't apply. Neither for Aless, nor for Oifaye. So Top Tier: Celice Leif Aless Oifaye Leylea Leen High Tier: Shanan Levin!Arthur Beowulf!Delmud Levin!Sety Finn(Not a father) Claude!Sety Noish!Fee and Claude!Fee Azel!Nanna and Finn!Nanna Lana Lex!Arthur Midir!Lester Hawk Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 where does Father!Finn fit into the list? Also, Lex!Fee should be next to Claude!Sety imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) where does Father!Finn fit into the list? Also, Lex!Fee should be next to Claude!Sety imo. Lex!Fee neverheard of it Ill have to test it in theory Father!Finn is Upper mid Above Amid (At least if he promoted) Lex!Fee has pursuit vantage elite and decent enough growths so that seems good Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Top tier: Celice > Laylea/Leaf > Leen > Aless imo Like I said, Oifaye is kind of floating in limbo under the absolute top tier but above the 'ordinary' high tier. I couldn't confidently place him in either tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Top tier: Celice > Laylea/Leaf > Leen > Aless imo Like I said, Oifaye is kind of floating in limbo under the absolute top tier but above the 'ordinary' high tier. I couldn't confidently place him in either tier. Oifaye in his own ansestor of seth? Leaf is better then laylea really because apart from his great utility he has good combat presence too Aless is preety much just the best mounted combat unit so Id put him above the dancers but another opinion would be welcomed Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Dancers above Oifaye, maybe Aless too. It's tough to rank utility versus combat, but if we don't need to go at breakneck speed I would favour Aless. Going back to gen 1 for a bit, Diadora needs to be higher. Silence may as well be her prf, it's so expensive, and her limited contribution is fantastic (as opposed to Alec/Azel whose high point is being an extra unit in Prologue). Just above Noish in Mid. Edited March 11, 2015 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) It's just my opinion. We'll have to discuss the exact order of units within tiers sooner or later anyhow. Imo the biggest issue with ranking gen 2 units is that we're dealing quite literally with 50 shades of broken. Instead of having only a top tier and a high tier category we'll probably need something more nouanced - a god tier for the likes of Celice, an OP tier for the likes of Oifaye, a top tier for stuff like Shanan or Levin!Sety, an upper tier for Lex!Arthur et al and then a 'regular' high tier for Beo!Delmud, Midir!Lester and similarly consistently good units. There are just so many good units in gen 2 that shouldn't be in the same tier. Edited March 11, 2015 by Yojinbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) I guess it depends on how big we want top tier to be? Like if top tier is absolutely massive and includes every unit who can trivialize the second generation being in top tier won't really mean anything.Maybe just have Celice (for being the absolute best), Leif (rescue staff), and Laylea(dancing) in top tier and then add other tiers like OP tier for units like Oifaye and Aless. Edit: I mean Laylea/Leen Edited March 11, 2015 by MartyTheDemonSlayer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Dancers above Oifaye, maybe Aless too. Going back to gen 1 for a bit, Diadora needs to be higher. Silence may as well be her prf, it's so expensive, and her limited contribution is fantastic (as opposed to Alec/Azel whose high point is being an extra unit in Prologue). Just above Noish in Mid. No. Diadora can silence 10 things only and is not aviable at all her silence isnt prf you can give to high enough performance units or aideen if dew gives her money diadoras performance in chapter 2 is ok not fantastic she is a footie with 5 move we factor in aviabillity not how well a unit is that you get for 1 chapter and in that chapter she has ok peformance=Low low tier or bottom IMO OP Tier is agreed so shall we have this God Tier: Celice Leif Leylea Leen OP Tier: Aless Oifaye Top High Tier: Shanan Levin!Sety Levin!Arthur Mabye this new tiers Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartyTheDemonSlayer Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Why would you have Dew money dump Aideen to use a staff that someone else already uses perfectly well? It's essentially Deidre's for that chapter. Also, even if she is a five move footie she can still warp and contribute to Macklily castle fine (maybe Augusty too if you're not playing at a breakneck pace.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Why would you have Dew money dump Aideen to use a staff that someone else already uses perfectly well? It's essentially Deidre's for that chapter. Also, even if she is a five move footie she can still warp and contribute to Macklily castle fine (maybe Augusty too if you're not playing at a breakneck pace.) My point isnt that she doesnt have solid niches is that her niche can be completely done by another character making it not a prf weapon for chapter 2 I have no reason for a unit with OK performance at 1 chapter and 2 chapters of nothing ness (arena in chapter 3 and silence sandima in 1) for mid tier apart from the fact that she is a footie warp is also at aideen who is another 5 move footie Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yojinbo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) I guess it depends on how big we want top tier to be? Like if top tier is absolutely massive and includes every unit who can trivialize the second generation being in top tier won't really mean anything.Maybe just have Celice (for being the absolute best), Leif (rescue staff), and Laylea(dancing) in top tier and then add other tiers like OP tier for units like Oifaye and Aless. Edit: I mean Laylea/Leen Yeah, I was also starting to look into that direction with Celice, Leaf and the dancers being on absolute top and Aless, Oifaye and possibly a few others following in the next tier: God Tier: Celice, Leaf, Laylea, Leen OP Tier: Aless, Oifaye, Levin!Arthur [?], Fin [?] Top Tier: Shanan, Levin!Sety, + possibly more Upper Tier: Lex!Arthur, Claude!Sety + more High Tier: Beo!Delmud, Midir!Lester, Azel!Nanna + more Edited March 11, 2015 by Yojinbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Diadora joins in chapter 1 and can play an important role because Spirit Forest. There's no point in wasting money to give Aideen the staff, and all the enemies you want to Silence are in Diadora's availability (except maybe Leptor, but Levin's the better user there anyway). Ardan has more availability than Sylvia, jsyk. He can kill everything Sigurd can, with enough time and patience. Sure it's inefficient but so is giving Aideen Silence. Ardan for top tier. Edited March 11, 2015 by Baldrick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moishe Oofnik Posted March 11, 2015 Author Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) Yeah, I was also starting to look into that direction with Celice, Leaf and the dancers being on absolute top and Aless, Oifaye and possibly a few others following in the next tier: God Tier: Celice, Leaf, Laylea, Leen OP Tier: Aless, Oifaye, Levin!Arthur [?], Fin [?] Top Tier: Shanan, Levin!Sety, + possibly more Upper Tier: Lex!Arthur, Claude!Sety + possibly more High Tier: Beo!Delmud, Midir!Lester, Azel!Nanna + possibly more Father!Fin is Op tier but thats only if he is at least at level 20 Lex!Arthur isnt as good as Beo!Delmud and Claude!Sety Id rate him at High tier above lester Noish!Fee and Claud!Fee can also go to upper Lex!Fee can go to high after theoreticly using her she is basicly tank noish!fee with worse offensive skills so yea Diadora joins in chapter 1 and can play an important role because Spirit Forest. There's no point in wasting money to give Aideen the staff, and all the enemies you want to Silence are in Diadora's availability (except maybe Leptor, but Levin's the better user there anyway). Ardan has more availability than Sylvia, jsyk. He can kill everything Sigurd can, with enough time and patience. Ardan for top tier. What Arden does for the entire game is useless he cant clear the arena even his growth kinda suck (good def and str for shit everywhere else) 5 move footie no utility no doubt diadora is better but you only get her for 1 and a half chapters with only OK performance if we put much favortism into ardan we lose turns which is against the entire point of effeciency so READ THE RULES before you have 270 Turns total of both gens you will probably spend 35~ turns in chapter 2 with or without deidres silencing sandima silence is saving 1 turn~ in chapter 1 in chapter 3 she is useless apart from arena clearing her contributions are not what id call amazing the fact that she is a footie too isnt very good Diadora will get out of bottom to low apart from that I dont find anything else notable but she has silence and can kill shit Edited March 11, 2015 by TTPK_Tal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 You're suggesting Aideen buys the Silence staff, how is that efficient? Read the rules yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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