Return of Casual

[Vascela]

The option to expand the player base is good. The overall quality of the game is constant--the only person who is experiencing the game is you and your choices. I get the full game experience however I want catered towards me. If I want to play Classic, I hope that classic is an available option. If I want to play Casual, I hope that casual is an option.

Because options expand the experience. If you don't want to play casual, then you don't have to play casual. It doesn't make you any more or less of a Fire Emblem fan. "True" fire emblem fans are fans that... like the game. It has nothing to do with playing a hyper specific personal stylized way of playing. "True" fire emblem fans should want others to enjoy the series just as much as they have had (but your experience does not and probably should not be forced as 1:1 comparison). Just because fire emblem fan likes classic doesn't mean every fan has to like classic. Much like if someones likes classic, not everyone has to like it--but removing it is selfish.

Preserving the integrity of FE my ass. Fire Emblem, much like games overall, is made to have fun. Not made to cater towards one specific band on players wanting to impose their preferred limitations on others.

[DeadGame]

Guys, the more people playing casual mode, the better!

Means more renown for Ragnar.

(I'm in tears right now.)

[Florete]

If it doesn't matter to you whether people use Casual Mode it or not, does it not follow that it also doesn't matter to you whether other people even play the game or not?

That does not follow. I care if people play the game because I want others to enjoy it and support, as that allows for the continuation of the series and the expansion of the fanbase. How they play game doesn't (or shouldnt't) affect those things.

[Irysa]

That does not follow. I care if people play the game because I want others to enjoy it and support, as that allows for the continuation of the series and the expansion of the fanbase. How they play game doesn't (or shouldnt't) affect those things.

That's a selfish and idealistic reason though, and isn't fundamentally any less petty than the position of those on the other side.

[Crysta]

Honestly, I'm fine with people disliking casual... but I'm not with people citing "oh, it made people not want to try older games or classic".

So what? Why are people offended at that?

HOW DARE YOU NOT LIKE WHAT I LIKE

I'm not trying the older games because some of the mechanics are outright ridiculous. But curiosity is a natural thing and I suspect it actually doesn't do much to dissuade anyone one way or another from trying other games and game modes.

It's all hypothetical panty-twisting.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Crysta

[Florete]

That's a selfish and idealistic reason though, and isn't fundamentally any less petty than the position of those on the other side.

If you enjoy the series, you should naturally want the series to expand. Whether or not you like how that happens is up to you, but that, at least, should be a universal desire among series fans.

But all I meant was that your logic didn't follow. I don't care if my reasons are selfish and idealistic.

[Irysa]

If you enjoy the series, you should naturally want the series to expand. Whether or not you like how that happens is up to you, but that, at least, should be a universal desire among series fans.

Actually, I'm not really concerned about the series constantly expanding. I also accept that one day, the series will end. Do you have any right to tell me that that means I'm not a "true fan"? I''ve come to terms with this already, and it doesn't bother me. Fire Emblem has had a long, good run, so I would not really be terribly troubled if it ended.

But all I meant was that your logic didn't follow. I don't care if my reasons are selfish and idealistic.

Sure, I was just trying to highlight that people attempting to take what they percieved to be a moral high ground were being a bit absurd. Personal preference and disagreements are fine. Implying your opinion is worth more than someone elses when they're both petty isn't. Are you sure you read the rest of my post after that specific quote you made? Since the entire point was just to highlight that this isn't really about a "freedom of choice" thing, because there are ulterior motives coming from that camp.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Irysa

[Integrity]

casual mode is great because it enabled intelligent systems, a company i like, to make more money, which keeps them alive. i wasn't angry when bungie stopped making myth games and went and did halo because bungie was massively successful (for a little while, where the hell did they go?)

i couldn't care less how many people play my silly single-player games except that the more people playing them => the more money spent at the company who made them and i'm a huge proponent of patronage tbh

EDIT: obviously my whole counter to "why is it good for a thing you like to be popular" falls apart when it comes to multiplayer stuff, but that doesn't include fire emblem lol

Edited April 23, 2015 by Integrity

[Jagged Jagen]

casual mode is great because it enabled intelligent systems, a company i like, to make more money, which keeps them alive. i wasn't angry when bungie stopped making myth games and went and did halo because bungie was massively successful (for a little while, where the hell did they go?)

i couldn't care less how many people play my silly single-player games except that the more people playing them => the more money spent at the company who made them and i'm a huge proponent of patronage tbh

EDIT: obviously my whole counter to "why is it good for a thing you like to be popular" falls apart when it comes to multiplayer stuff, but that doesn't include fire emblem lol

I will admit, from a business standpoint Casual was brilliant. I'm not angry at IS over abandoning Advance Wars for the same reason you aren't with Myst: It admittedly makes sense. TBH I'd like to see more money go to IS. I think the only issue is as a series evolves, the growing pains do indeed become evident. I'd relate this to the infamous Zelda Cycle that I've seen time and time before. As a whole, I really like Awakening and will admit that there are positives to Casual mode. Admittedly, Casual and Grinding and Pair-Up etc. makes Awakening a lot more fun. It really depends on play styles however, as I admittedly don't play Fire Emblem for fun, I play it because I genuinely want to challenge myself and Awakening doesn't fully scratch that itch. Again, personal preference. As a whole, I guess what I'm asking for is a game that challenges me a bit more without going cheap.

[Irysa]

casual mode is great because it enabled intelligent systems, a company i like, to make more money, which keeps them alive. i wasn't angry when bungie stopped making myth games and went and did halo because bungie was massively successful (for a little while, where the hell did they go?)

i couldn't care less how many people play my silly single-player games except that the more people playing them => the more money spent at the company who made them and i'm a huge proponent of patronage tbh

EDIT: obviously my whole counter to "why is it good for a thing you like to be popular" falls apart when it comes to multiplayer stuff, but that doesn't include fire emblem lol

My counter to that would be that there's no evidence that IS would have had to close shop without casual mode. The interview outlining how it may have been the last in the series said it would have had to sell at least 250k for the series to continue, and not a single game in the franchise has sold that little overall. FE12 sold that much in it's first week in Japan alone.

So your position would come down to "I want IS to get paid more money because I enjoyed their work and I like the company". Can you clarify this a little? Specifically, the only reason that you want them to get paid more, is because you enjoyed some of their previous products, and you place no weight put on their future endeavors whatsoever? You wouldn't mind if, say, IS stopped making FE, and games you enjoyed, and made games you didn't enjoy instead? Would you still want them to get paid more money? I find it difficult to believe there's no secondary desire here for them to use that money in order to expand and continue the series that you do care about as opposed to anything else. Not being angry is one thing, but preffering a particular outcome is another.

If it truly is the case that you want them to simply get paid a lot, I'd pull up the classic charity argument - Why don't you buy a copy of Awakening every so often, repeatedly, in order to push up that patronage? Isn't there a degree of selfishness in wanting a company to succeed, but with other individual's money, not your own?

Edited April 23, 2015 by Irysa

[Ambulz]

This thread was posted today. It's already 5 pages and counting. We already had a thread addressing this exact topic not too long ago in this subforum. That thread rapidly became more popular than the first Known Information thread. Why why why why why

Ugh, I hate this argument. Casual is optional. For those against it, it is completely up to you how you want to play the game. Many people didn't want to play Fire Emblem before Casual was a thing. Now that Casual is here, more people have been playing Fire Emblem. Now that more people are playing Fire Emblem, we can have more Fire Emblem games in the future. This addition to the series is not a detriment to the games itself. Evidently, it may have become a detriment instead to the community, since it turned a bunch of us into elitist pricks.

[Integrity]

bleh.

My counter to that would be that there's no evidence that IS would have had to close shop without casual mode. The interview outlining how it may have been the last in the series said it would have had to sell at least 250k for the series to continue, and not a single game in the franchise has sold that little overall. FE12 sold that much in it's first week in Japan alone.

i don't care if is would have died without it, all i care about it that the game was successful and i for one blame it on being more inclusive for reasons such as casual mode, not specifically only casual mode

So your position would come down to "I want IS to get paid more money because I enjoyed their work and I like the company". Can you clarify this a little? Specifically, the only reason that you want them to get paid more, is because you enjoyed some of their previous products, and you place no weight put on their future endeavors whatsoever? You wouldn't mind if, say, IS stopped making FE, and games you enjoyed, and made games you didn't enjoy instead? Would you still want them to get paid more money? I find it difficult to believe there's no secondary desire here for them to use that money in order to expand and continue the series that you do care about as opposed to anything else. Not being angry is one thing, but preffering a particular outcome is another.

yes

my stance is that they have earned my good will until they have lost it, at which point i will change my opinion and they will no longer have my good will. i wish them success in every single future endeavor of theirs until such a point as they make a thing that spectacularly disappoints me. like, if the thing you said happened, i would just change my mind and be done with it, lol

case in point, i impulse bought every sarah mclachlan album until laws of illusion which was iffy at best, and then she became a bad artist. she no longer has my good will.

If it truly is the case that you want them to simply get paid a lot, I'd pull up the classic charity argument - Why don't you buy a copy of Awakening every so often, repeatedly, in order to push up that patronage? Isn't there a degree of selfishness in wanting a company to succeed, but with other individual's money?

there is a tier beyond what is has, what (f/e) tripwire has; i have bought roughly a dozen copies of killing floor just to give to people i know because they were on the fence/not in a financial place to buy it so i made sure the sale went through. i won't buy more copies of awakening for myself because that doesn't benefit me at all. i'm still a little selfish, bro.

EDIT: put another way, i want them to succeed, i don't want to throw money at them without getting any service in return. that's not business!

Edited April 23, 2015 by Integrity

[NoirCore]

I think Casual Mode has a trillion rights to stay, with no debate. It's an optional mode; it's not going to infect classic mode anytime soon. Admittedly, I am a casual player who plays that mode, but so what? Casual players are most definitely NOT all about waifu loving (which, unless they start harassing people about it, which is an attitude NOT caused by casual mode, is not anyone's business to complain about as it is only their personal fantasy); we simply just have a better fondness for the characters and story, much like casual players in general. Also, in an interview for New Mystery of the Emblem (which Irysa has posted in another casual mode debate topic, and I think Serenes Forest's site has a link to said interview), although the developers consider permadeath the "essence" of Fire Emblem, they had no problem implementing a "no permadeath" mode; they only had a problem with removing permadeath entirely. Plus, one developer said that the goal of Fire Emblem in the beginning was to make a game that was very accessible to everyone, and the FE fanbase is NOT a hive mind; it has many different opinions, just like any other fanbase.

Unless classic risks getting replaced by casual, I see no reason to get rid of "no permadeath".

[Florete]

Actually, I'm not really concerned about the series constantly expanding. I also accept that one day, the series will end. Do you have any right to tell me that that means I'm not a "true fan"? I''ve come to terms with this already, and it doesn't bother me. Fire Emblem has had a long, good run, so I would not really be terribly troubled if it ended.

I would never use the "not a true fan" crap, though I do find it questionable to like a series, yet not care if it continues unless 1) the series has truly ended, such as it being a trilogy and the 3rd concluded the entire story, or 2) you're only a fan insofar as you like a specific game or subset of them but not really the series, in which case you shouldn't care about future installments and what features they have in the first place.

[Zerosabers]

This will end horribly

Casual mode won't be leaving anytime soon and it is a great addition to fire emblem, especially if IF has an extensive endgame/apotheosis map. I would like battle saves to be separated though as I would like using them sometimes on classic just in case i feel like doing an incredibly stupid gamble like seeing if that 5% crit will hit. Or using them on lunatic so I don't have to reset the whole map when I lose one guy halfway through.

[Sunwoo]

I play on both classic and casual mode. I've been playing FE since Brawl came out (and went back and played all of the English-released FE games), and I'm fine whether grinding is or is not an option in the game. I'm cool with most of what IS does with the games. And yes, there were some things about Awakening that bugged me, but it's not like Awakening ruined the entire series. It just means that if needs to improve on what they did in Awakening.

I support the inclusion (and return) of casual mode because my friends are not as deep into FE as I am. If turning off permadeath makes them get into the series (because I know at least one didn't like FE because of permadeath), then I welcome casual mode with open arms. I'd probably welcome casual mode anyway

[Irysa]

my stance is that they have earned my good will until they have lost it, at which point i will change my opinion and they will no longer have my good will. i wish them success in every single future endeavor of theirs until such a point as they make a thing that spectacularly disappoints me. like, if the thing you said happened, i would just change my mind and be done with it, lol

Alright, fair enough.

there is a tier beyond what is has, what (f/e) tripwire has; i have bought roughly a dozen copies of killing floor just to give to people i know because they were on the fence/not in a financial place to buy it so i made sure the sale went through. i won't buy more copies of awakening for myself because that doesn't benefit me at all. i'm still a little selfish, bro.

Sure, I can understand that. I've bought like 10 copies of Ys: The Oath in Felghana for various friends, I bought Dark Souls about 5 times for the same reason. My driving interest for doing so was rooted in the desire for Falcom/Xseed/FromSoft recieve money for what I believe to be impeccable products, not neccessarily gifting them to friends. I do geninuely feel I've given my money's worth to them in that respect now.

You concede that it's a bit selfish to want a company to succeed primarily due to the money of others, but I suppose that'd be something like tertiary selfishness, it's not really the same as "I want this thing like this beacuse I prefer it that way". However...most of the counterarguments being thrown around here don't encompasse your position at all. There's a kind of self righteous indignation that a lot of posters seem to have at the mere prospect of someone thinking the series was better off without casual mode, who then attempt to use a "liberty-esque" argument (people should be free to do as they wish etc) to frame themselves in a higher moral position. That irks me, and comes off as generally pretty slimey, because people are free to simply not play a game!

I would never use the "not a true fan" crap, though I do find it questionable to like a series, yet not care if it continues unless 1) the series has truly ended, such as it being a trilogy and the 3rd concluded the entire story, or 2) you're only a fan insofar as you like a specific game or subset of them but not really the series, in which case you shouldn't care about future installments and what features they have in the first place.

I have enjoyed every game in the series so far in different ways. It's not so much that I don't care if it continues, I just don't mind if it ends, and don't care about it expanding. If I were to weigh it, it's like

IS makes a bad game - Negative value, don't want this to happen

IS doesn't make another FE game - Value of zero, I don't mind

IS makes a new game - Unknown value, I'm interested but I don't inherantly know if it's a good thing because the first situation may occur.

IS makes a good game - Positive value, I'm pleased.

I do not neccessarily expect to continue to enjoy every single future installment in the series. Really, if the series ends, the question is really "what could have been?". Seeing as I don't feel that there are any games in the series that really need sequels, or remakes (going by how loathesome I found many of the remake only additions to FE12), I don't have any explict desire for them to make a new game for the sake of a new game. What I want is a game I care about/find preferentially valuable.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Irysa

[Jedi]

Casual mode opened the gates more for newcomers, while I don't really like to play the mode as much as classic. I still feel its a nice optional add-on, it overall helped the series.

Now the series as it is currently. Is probably not what Kaga envisioned the franchise to become, lamenting that is fine, as I do that for several cool mechanics.

I can understand the change in tone for how Awakening works changed some peoples perception on the future of this franchise as well. A similar deal is with me and the Shin Megami Tensei series and its vastly different Persona series. Which overall is alot more popular. Do I like Persona? Sure, but its not quite what I feel SMT is fully like, but thats merely an opinion. However Persona has been vastly more successful, due to varying good factors around it.

SMT is quite brutal and harsh on newcomers, later Persona retains that style of difficulty on its higher difficulties but also eases people in quite well, Fire Emblem is also quite harsh on newcomers outside of like Sacred Stones and Path of Radiance, the rest of the games have a bit of a curve to them, that we as long time players don't see as easily anymore.

New Mystery of the Emblem and Awakening both, have had casual mode and yet IS added a harsher new difficulty almost in an attempt to appease both styles of fans.

In this new game they acknowledge a divided opinion and are working with it. Which I honestly find brilliant, and from a marketing standpoint. Nohr the "Harder and more older style FE" game is getting more press and likability right now. Due to how it was presented.

Nohr may be the gate to the past, so to speak. Hoshido looks awesome though (my first choice due to aesthetics and such but thats neither here nor there.) They look to be trying to gain more fans in general and keep the older generation happy.

I actually applaud IS for at least trying to please both camps personally.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Jedi

[Nym]

I can give my own opinion on this since I'm a big beginner and casual mode helped to become (a little bit) better, I struggled A LOT when I started playing (Lissa getting beat up 5 times) but with Casual mode, I manage to beat the game. Now , I no longer need to play in Casual mode. So, I suggest to keep it as an option.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Nym

[Masadeer]

for the love of god....... this topic again?

Use it if you like it, Spit on it if you don't!

Having it in the game does NOT in any way shape or form depreciate from the game, and if you say otherwise, just stick to classic! There's something for everyone here, complaining about it is like, no, totally is, just being mad that IS is expanding their consumer base.

It's a good thing.

It helps more fire emblems come overseas.

[Baldrick]

@masadeer; the first FE game with casual mode was FE12, which wasn't localised.

My preferences for the new Casual Mode would be something different in order to ease players into Classic.

It will give them an easier time with the older games. I'm of the belief Classic is not insurmountable for anyone that can complete Casual, since if you tend to lose a lot of units while playing Casual you'll be more outnumbered and you still won't win unless you're good enough.

For example;

Recuperation mechanic; the first time a unit dies, they are unavailable until the next chapter. The second time, they sit out the next chapter as well to recover from their injuries. The third time, they sit out two chapters, etc. Repeatable maps like Spotpass/DLC would have no restriction on who you can deploy, but would not count as a chapter. You never have to worry about losing the unit for good, but there's plenty of incentive to aim for no casualties.

Retreat command; makes a unit leave the field for the rest of the chapter. They will be usable again at the start of the next chapter.

[Vineron]

I just don't understand the argument for not having casual, unless they suddenly forced it on you as the only mode.

It's meant for allowing people new to the series or unfamiliar to the genre to still be able to enjoy and play the game. It's an option, more choices is good, limiting choices is bad.

Really don't know what else there is to say about it, it's not like the game will be awful and ruined because it simply included casual mode as a choice for players.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

I don't have any real issues with Casual mode.

[NekoKnight]

Recuperation mechanic; the first time a unit dies, they are unavailable until the next chapter. The second time, they sit out the next chapter as well to recover from their injuries. The third time, they sit out two chapters, etc. Repeatable maps like Spotpass/DLC would have no restriction on who you can deploy, but would not count as a chapter. You never have to worry about losing the unit for good, but there's plenty of incentive to aim for no casualties.

Retreat command; makes a unit leave the field for the rest of the chapter. They will be usable again at the start of the next chapter.

Your recuperation mechanic sounds like a fair compromise, but the more often a unit dies, the harsher the penalty will be until it's no different than playing classic. If they have a penalty for the unit being defeated, I think it should be a flat rate of skipping one mission. If they miss too many missions, they'll be underleveled and unusable anyway,

[NoirCore]

Why does Casual Mode need to only be a step towards Classic mode? Can't it also be a mode where, you know, "casual" players can enjoy the game, as the title suggests? o.o; I'm not saying it should only exist as enjoyment for casual players; I'm just saying it shouldn't ONLY exist for the purpose of easing players into Classic Mode, and only that reason.