Phoenix Wright Posted May 1, 2015 Share Posted May 1, 2015 i think you're right. after reading again, 3 and 5 make sense to me--but initially they didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 i think you're right. after reading again, 3 and 5 make sense to me--but initially they didn't. Yeah. It's all Red Fox's fault. In another forum no one complained about those. So what the hell is up with "hard?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 (edited) Czar_Yoshi perfectly explained the way I read them. The way those sentences are worded make it sound like the children are smoking/taking the exam, but it's at least ambiguous. Like, looking at #5, if you read Karasuma's statement without reading the context, would you ever think it's someone else taking the exam? Same applies to #3. I'd say every statement could be worded better, but I suppose that's part of the experiment, right? EDIT: Also, why just 3 and 5? The same way of reading them can lead #2 to being true, as well. Edited May 2, 2015 by Red Fox of Fire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 Czar_Yoshi perfectly explained the way I read them. The way those sentences are worded make it sound like the children are smoking/taking the exam, but it's at least ambiguous. Like, looking at #5, if you read Karasuma's statement without reading the context, would you ever think it's someone else taking the exam? Same applies to #3. I'd say every statement could be worded better, but I suppose that's part of the experiment, right? EDIT: Also, why just 3 and 5? The same way of reading them can lead #2 to being true, as well. Yes, there is a certain consistency to your answers, along with eclipse's and Czar Yoshi's. 2 and 3 and 5 all share in common the fact that it's referring to someone other than the students. The ambiguity is necessary and intended. I'm trying to find out why 2 is horrible but 3 and 5 are much better for most people. Something about the presence of "hard" makes it impossible to refer to people other than the students, for whatever reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freohr Datia Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 A lot of people think everything except 2 are fine, myself included. I feel like everyone is just giving Red Fox of Fire's answers.. next time I do this survey, I might hide the answers people give. Ummmmm excuse you I came up with my answers before reading everyone else's =O I just happened to read it the exact same way she did. But now with your explanation (making me look more deeply into it!!) I can start to read it the way you intended it to be read, but without thinking deeply about it at all I read 3 and 5 as false because of the phrasing. Which means it's not very clear phrasing that needs to be changed if your goal is for them to be easily true. Because they can be read in two different ways (or at least as far as we know only two~!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Dumb Snowy answers: Context: Students of Class 3E are taking Korosensei's latest exam. But the students realize that the exam is surprisingly easier than usual, and everyone expects to pass it. Karasuma says: "It is hard for the students to fail the exam." This is stiff and not the best worded but it isn't too 'bad'. I would think this would be acceptable but not the best way to say it. Context: Karasuma and Bitch-sensei are being forced to take Korosensei's latest exam. If Karasuma and Bitch-sensei fail the exam, then the students will be forced to clean the classroom all day and get really exhausted. Karasuma says: "It is hard for the students to fail the exam." This is not true. While the punishment is made clear no actual reference to the difficulty of the test is made. The test could be as simple as matching animal sounds or could be as hard as solving astrophysics equations. Also, 'Bitch-sensei'? Seriously? Erm... That's probably not the best name, but whatever. Context: Bitch-sensei is smoking inside Class 3E while the students are around. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the children to smoke in the classroom." This is not true. All we know is that Bitch-sensei is smoking while 'for the children' is a plural and, thusly, implies more than one person is smoking. Not to mention that there is no direct correlation between 'smoking' and 'danger'. Yes, smoking can cause health problems and is bad for you, but 'danger' tends to usually imply something more immediate or drastic than maybe inhaling some cigarette smoke. Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage by Korosensei and will be executed if the students fail their exam. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." This is true. Failing the example leads directly to their execution. Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." This is unclear but my leaning is 'false'. The problem is that 'students' can apply to the entire class or to just the two taking the test. So if it is just referring to Karasuma and Bitch-sensei then, yes, it is dangerous to fail. However, if the 'students' is referring to the entire class it's not really that 'true' as the other students are not in danger. My leaning is towards 'false' as there is too much room for doubt given such limited context but it could be true as well. In terms of 'possibility' I would say 'true' 'false' 'false' 'true' 'true' but that last one is more because it's vague and CAN mean it when it really shouldn't. Like saying 'sparrows eat people'. It's true a sparrow can eat a dead person rendering it true but most people wouldn't say it like that and it really shouldn't be said like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 . . .okay, I think I see how 2, 3, and 5 could also be interpreted. However, Bitch-sensei's name implies "teacher", and Karasuma is an unknown, which is why I felt that there could be another group of students somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 . . .okay, I think I see how 2, 3, and 5 could also be interpreted. However, Bitch-sensei's name implies "teacher", and Karasuma is an unknown, which is why I felt that there could be another group of students somewhere. Do you think 3 and 5 are better than 2? There's no right or wrong answer to this so don't get pressured. Karasuma is also a teacher, so is Korosensei. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I would like to change my answer on 5 to 'false' as the students are not taking the class, only two people are. The other students cannot 'fail' the exam because they are not taking it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Do you think 3 and 5 are better than 2? There's no right or wrong answer to this so don't get pressured. Karasuma is also a teacher, so is Korosensei. I'd say 2 and 5 are equal, since they rely on the same assumption (that Karasuma and Bitch-sensei can be students). 3 is worse than 2 and 5 - by law, children shouldn't be smoking, and Bitch-sensei's title implies adulthood (exceptions abound, but eh). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 3, 2015 Author Share Posted May 3, 2015 I would like to change my answer on 5 to 'false' as the students are not taking the class, only two people are. The other students cannot 'fail' the exam because they are not taking it. OMG YOU CHANGED YOUR NAME TO DUMB SNOWY T__T I DONT KNOW IF I SHOULD LAUGH OR GET ANGRY Anyway, the reading in 5 was that it would be [dangerous for the students] [for Karasuma and Bitch-sensei to fail the test]. I'd say 2 and 5 are equal, since they rely on the same assumption (that Karasuma and Bitch-sensei can be students). 3 is worse than 2 and 5 - by law, children shouldn't be smoking, and Bitch-sensei's title implies adulthood (exceptions abound, but eh). I think you're thinking too deeply about this!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I think you're thinking too deeply about this!! What I typed out in my answers. . .was the first thing that came to mind. So I guess my result is "eclipse has weird logic"? Wouldn't be first time this has happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crysta Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 #1 - Seems to fit. True. #2 - The context says nothing about the difficulty of the test, only that Kara and Bitch are taking it and there are distasteful consequences if they don't pass. Assuming that it's the same easy exam in #1 (no indication that it is), then the answer is the same, true. If none of that is established (and it isn't), false. #3 - I just assume it's dangerous from my knowledge of cigarettes, rather than anything suggested in the context, really. With just the context, this seems false. #4 - Seems to fit. True. #5 - It is dangerous for the students if Bitch-sensei and Karasuma fail the exam. It is true if they are students. Otherwise, the students really have no control over the outcome regardless of how well they do on the exam, ergo it's false. My initial review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 1 True 2 False 3 False 4 True 5 False It's very simple and any English speaker can do it. I need you to first read the context description, and imagine a narrator saying the sentence under that. I need you to tell me if it's possible for describing the situation. Context: Students of Class 3E are taking Korosensei's latest exam. But the students realize that the exam is surprisingly easier than usual, and everyone expects to pass it. Karasuma says: "It is hard for the students to fail the exam." Context: Karasuma and Bitch-sensei are being forced to take Korosensei's latest exam. If Karasuma and Bitch-sensei fail the exam, then the students will be forced to clean the classroom all day and get really exhausted. Karasuma says: "It is hard for the students to fail the exam." Context: Bitch-sensei is smoking inside Class 3E while the students are around. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the children to smoke in the classroom." Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage by Korosensei and will be executed if the students fail their exam. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isylia Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 Nothing seemed wrong to me when I read it, those descriptions could work in french without changing them. Even the 2 is correct, maybe it doesn't for native english speakers because the word 'hard' is generally used to express a difficulty for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zanarkin Posted May 3, 2015 Share Posted May 3, 2015 I don't particularly agree with some people's thought on hard to fail... When someone uses that, I assume it means that anyone who actually tries to pass the exam (even with very little knowledge of the topic) can and will probably pass it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted May 4, 2015 Share Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) It's not something I can explain, 3 and 5 make perfect sense to me, my girlfriend, classmates and Esau too it seems. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I think our brains have different rules of grammar compared to you, Red Fox etc and I need to figure out what rules they are. "It is dangerous..." and "It is hard" are sentences with identical appearances, though, which makes it really hard to figure out what the difference is between them. Well... If I were to hear either of those (#2 and #5) in real life, my brain would auto-correct #5 from "it is dangerous for the students to fail the exam" to "the students will be in danger if they fail the exam/if the exam is failed." Trying to auto-correct #2 is much harder because you can't convert hard into a noun- essentially #5 can be made right by only switching particles and sentence structure. Because #5 is easier to fix, I suppose it's less wrong and more likely to get glossed over if someone was saying it. They're still both wrong, but that might be where the discrepancy comes from (dangerous can easily be made into a noun and thus put in future tense, hard can't in this context). #3 falls into the same boat then, correcting it on the fly is much simpler. Edited May 4, 2015 by Czar_Yoshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 5, 2015 Author Share Posted May 5, 2015 English doesn't have future tense, by the way. Anyway, I found out today that this is an unsolved problem in linguistics. I've figured out a solution, though. Thanks guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 7, 2015 Author Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ok guys, I need more help: Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "The exam is dangerous for the students to fail." Is 2 worse or the same as 1? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix Wright Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 2 is worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balcerzak Posted May 7, 2015 Share Posted May 7, 2015 Ok guys, I need more help: Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "It is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." Context: Students of Class 3E have been taken hostage and Korosensei gives an exam for Bitch-sensei and Karasuma to do. If they fail the exam, the students die. Karasuma says: "The exam is dangerous for the students to fail." Is 2 worse or the same as 1? Roughtly the same, or maybe slightly worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 I'd say 2 is slightly worse than 1. If I stare at 1 long enough, it sort of makes sense (if I assume that Karasuma is talking about his own point of view in terms of what happens if he fails). For 2, no matter how I slice it, it sounds like the students should be the ones taking the exam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czar_Yoshi Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 Not sure if it matters but who is Karasuma talking to? ...Now that I look more at it, both actually are making more sense. The discrepancy might be caused by the order of processing for and to: reading "for the students to fail" implies the students failing, while reading "dangerous for the students" makes it turn out completely fine. I still think they could be a bit clearer if, say, it was "is dangerous to the students to fail", because then there's no way to make the first interpretation (in which the students are specified as the ones failing). Having said that, both sentences are almost exactly the same grammatically- the only thing changed is the order the four important words are in, which is a matter of tone and not conventions (though #1 probably does fit the tone Karasuma wants to set better by mentioning dangerous first- there he's more focused on the danger, in the latter he's more focused on the exam). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baldrick Posted May 8, 2015 Share Posted May 8, 2015 "the exam is dangerous" feels worse than "it is dangerous". I think that's because the exam itself isn't dangerous, failing it / Korosensei's ultimatum is, and "it" can refer to those. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted May 9, 2015 Author Share Posted May 9, 2015 (edited) Not sure if it matters but who is Karasuma talking to? ...Now that I look more at it, both actually are making more sense. The discrepancy might be caused by the order of processing for and to: reading "for the students to fail" implies the students failing, while reading "dangerous for the students" makes it turn out completely fine. I still think they could be a bit clearer if, say, it was "is dangerous to the students to fail", because then there's no way to make the first interpretation (in which the students are specified as the ones failing). Having said that, both sentences are almost exactly the same grammatically- the only thing changed is the order the four important words are in, which is a matter of tone and not conventions (though #1 probably does fit the tone Karasuma wants to set better by mentioning dangerous first- there he's more focused on the danger, in the latter he's more focused on the exam). I love how your explanations are always so off lol. The basic idea is that "for the students" modifies the adjective in the second sentence, and when this is the case, it's impossible to move "the exam" out of that embedded infinitival clause the movement is blocked. Taking your suggestions would completely ruin the experiment btw. "the exam is dangerous" feels worse than "it is dangerous". I think that's because the exam itself isn't dangerous, failing it / Korosensei's ultimatum is, and "it" can refer to those. They mean exactly the same thing. In this case, "it" is an expletive that means nothing. It would be literally nonsense to say "Korosensei's ultimatum is dangerous for the students to fail the exam." You just put in "it" there to satisfy a certain condition. Edited May 9, 2015 by Chiki Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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