Thousand Names Mafia Day 4

[Zkirsche]

It is clear that he knew what Rapier's vote was poor, but he didn't act on it.

To clarify, not acting on it is beneficial for scum as it allows for people to continue pushing Excellen and wasting their time following a pointless argument. Pointing it out the way he did allows this to happen while also absolving him of the blame for that discussion happening (because he appears to be trying to stop the argument).

[Vhaltz]

I just don't like the way it was done. Vhaltz didn't really defend Excellen, instead just pointing out to him what he was doing wrong. It's like he never really pushed for people (well, Rapier), to understand Excellen's point of view, instead choosing to be a spectator.

It was very heavily implicit, and Rapier had done nothing remotely scummy as of that moment that warranted pursuing him aggressively over it.

Your whole premise is flawed.

[Vhaltz]

The justification that Rapier put out for his vote that actually mattered was in #56, not earlier.

[Zkirsche]

Why do you have to pursue him aggressively? Why not calmly explain to him why he is wrong. He clearly didn't get the message.

Implying something is not the same as pushing it.

[Zkirsche]

I still feel like you could've responded to him more.

[Vhaltz]

Why do you have to pursue him aggressively? Why not calmly explain to him why he is wrong. He clearly didn't get the message.

Implying something is not the same as pushing it.

No, he did get the message.

He just decided to stick to his vote because it benefitted him (if scum) or decided to stick to his vote because he thinks that what counts is the intent that Excellen had in mind when they first produced their vote and wasn't yet aware of the meta discrepancy (if town).

While I don't agree with the conclusion, the second scenario is entirely reasonable so there's no reason to assume that we're dealing with the first scenario.

[Vhaltz]

^ To elaborate on that since I mentioned looking out for Rapier's next posts. Something that has both potential scum intent and potential town scumhunting intent is worth looking out for more than something that just says nothing or is WIFOM like Shin's posts.

##Unvote

Don't think #100 comes from scum. Would probably vote for Prims if anybody at this point because their "Rapier feels weird" line felt off from the perspective of somebody who knows Rapier like the back of his hand. What's wrong with Rapier? What were you expecting as a response from me and why didn't you follow up with anything wrt me when I suddenly became a wagon?

[Bossanova]

@YOLOSWAG

Claim is completely null in my opinion. I won't be taking it into account for anything though I will say it's quite boisterous of him to claim such immediately.

I disagree with his logic in #46 about voting Excellen Browning, as I initially town-read the slot for gut reasons and while I don't agree with his actions, I think it was brownie townie of him to try and move the game forward.

Shin's response in #49 is interesting, feels like he's egging on Excellen for no good reason. Prims' #59 explains my feeling decently enough.

@Executive kirsche
Why do you think massclaiming would give us anything in a setup that is probably made in such a way that scum has weird fucking roles in the first place? Just reading the people who have claimed already I didn't come in here expecting for it to be simple.

Nothing so far interests in terms of leads. I have a whole lot of people who I town-read and a whole lot of people who I'm unsure of. The person who I would be most suspect of is Shin at best.

[Bossanova]

ngl my vote on Vhaltz is also kinda influenced by the fact that I played Skype mafia with him recently and he is kinda playing to what I know as his scum meta

Elaborate on this more.

[Bossanova]

If I'm going to take the time to spout conjecture like most people seem to be doing I will say that I don't trust Rapier at all and so far his posting and pushes haven't wowed me. Quote's meta read on Vhaltz feels slightly genuine but I'm withholding judgment for now until he responds to me. Mancer also seems fine to me.

[Paperblade]

I just don't like the way it was done. Vhaltz didn't really defend Excellen, instead just pointing out to him what he was doing wrong. It's like he never really pushed for people (well, Rapier), to understand Excellen's point of view, instead choosing to be a spectator. Scum don't want to tie themselves down to other people by pushing opinions like that.

Consider what you are doing now Paper, assuming you're town. You have spotted something that you disagree with fundamentally. Your response is to attack and discuss that point (in this case, Vhaltz's behaviour) as that will help you get into my mind, helping you to determine my PoV and from that, my alignment. The way Vhaltz has gone into this game is different, he points out things but doesn't come to any actual conclusion from them, nor does he try to influence the discussion taking place around him. Why did he not do as you did and call out Rapier's poorly made vote immediately? It is clear that he knew what Rapier's vote was poor, but he didn't act on it.

I think the difference is I am giving a pass on this sort of behavior since it's D1. Like, following the flow of things, I read Vhaltz's post and thought it seemed okay? Like, the actual content of the post is lol since it's ED1, and the issue I took with Rapier's didn't come until after Vhaltz had made his post (post 56 as Vhaltz pointed out, while 51 is the post you have a problem with), but it's pretty easy to infer Vhaltz did not think Llen was scummy based on what he said.

Before that it just seemed like Llen being Llen and getting aggressive at people and Rapier reacting to that, so I didn't think much of it.

Rapier's response in #56 bothers me because Llen is voting someone for a bad reason ("Doing X is antitown so X is scummy")

(Yes, I am voting Excelen because painting a player's action in a bad way when it is not inherently scummy is scummy).

I quoted this before but this is actually exactly what he is doing to Llen, painting an action in a bad way when it's not inherently scummy.

[Percivalé]

If I'm going to take the time to spout conjecture like most people seem to be doing

I didn't want to respond to this but yo man it's ED1, what else do you expect us to be doing?? not trying to be rude here but I genuinely don't understand this.

as for my Vhaltz meta-read I noticed that when he's scum he seems to sorta sit back and comment and then when he gets pressure he lists stuff that reads/sounds like he's listing it just for the sake of it without much drive behind it, i.e.:

Looking out for Rapier's next posts because his justification for his vote is poor, and looking out for Paper's next posts because Rapier had already explained why he was keeping his vote despite my already explaining the meta dissonance, and I don't see his question making any difference or going anywhere.

Don't particularly think anybody is more likely scum than not. Excellen read mildly town in their indignation which is why I explained the theory to stop them from digging themselves a grave.

I'm not actually very sure about my Vhaltz read anymore after recent content but I don't know why then he just explained what stated at the bottom here when he commented on the Excellen stuff, plus he seems to scumread Rapier here but turns around and says he would vote Prims for his Rapier comment... so does he think they're both scum??

I'm trying to decide who else I would vote, I'm still not keen on Rapier's content and I already stated early what specifically about his vote bugged me. I wouldn't lynch Excellen though fwiw.

[Percivalé]

I really shouldn't be meta-reading people because I'm not good at it but like I said there are other reasons why I'm voting Vhaltz right now and those are some of them. I sorta offhand mentioned the meta thing because I felt it might have been influencing my vote too but not as much and I didn't feel it was worth explaining at the time because, again, there are other reasons why I'm voting him, I usually don't explain my gut/meta reads (out of habit), and I suck at meta and from past experience I'm usually pretty scared of being publicly told that I suck at metareading people because personal reasons.

[Percivalé]

blehhh I'll continue reading and stuff later, I have to do homework and go to sleep.

ftr though as it stands I actually wouldn't vote Mancer either, if you want me to explain this I will but I'm going to step away for now and post more content tomorrow.

[spoiler=just a general note]btw sorry in advance if I ever come off as like, passive-aggressive or anything, usually I'm joking but sometimes I go overboard without realizing and if this happens just calmly ask me to step away or cool down or something. I usually make sure to mention this when I'm playing w/ people who have never played with me before to avoid animosity and icky stuff

[Prims]

Uhh, I think you misrepresented kirsche's post. Why are you trying to stop me from posting about my thoughts on the various issues in the thread?

Usually people make weak votes early on to press people and not only was your defense of Shin getting in-between those votes and Shin, there was no reason to bring it up given he's not about to get lynched over a small wagon a few hours into D1. Granted I'm dropping the Shin thing for now since it seems he won't be on to respond until the game state's too far-removed from his initial post, but in the meantime, who is scum and why?

Would probably vote for Prims if anybody at this point because their "Rapier feels weird" line felt off from the perspective of somebody who knows Rapier like the back of his hand. What's wrong with Rapier? What were you expecting as a response from me and why didn't you follow up with anything wrt me when I suddenly became a wagon?

I'm gonna modkill myself if people keep making bad meta calls in this game I'm gonna fucking do it I have my role PM in my clipboard and everything. My record at reading Rapier isn't even that good. Paper's Rapier case is pretty on-point with nothing for me to add to it - main thing is that I felt both Rapier and Excellen were both grasping to move the game forward and want more Rapier content before I consider voting there. Also Master Belch was Gorf and not YOLO/Omega so otherwise my big read on Rapier is that he's Rapier.

When I said I was going to stop posting, my read on you was still solidifying. I was under the impression you were null with a questionable approach to the game. After this post I think you're scummy, though. If you'd "probably vote for me" then just do it!

Nothing so far interests in terms of leads. I have a whole lot of people who I town-read and a whole lot of people who I'm unsure of. The person who I would be most suspect of is Shin at best.

Any reason you don't think Shin is worth voting? This doesn't bug me as much as Vhaltz since your read on him is small, but I want to know why you're withholding. Also, is Rapier worse than Shin or not? Would appreciate you trying to put your Rapier read into words - I don't consider failing to wow people earlygame distrustworthy by itself.

##Unvote

##Vote: Vhaltz

town!Vhaltz should've voted me in the quoted post since scum is going to respond more tellingly under the threat of a lynch - not voting is just evasion of conflict. He outright said he'd vote me so it's not comparable to Bossanova going "this weak thing is my best suspicion". As for his actual read on me, the Prims/Rapier rhetoric is outright dishonest... and even if it legit bugged him he could have pressed it several posts ago rather than to conclude a discussion where he was under fire for not contributing. I also agree with kirsche on his lack of influence on discussion and think the salt's coming from mafia perceiving themself as caught for the wrong reasons.

Interested in what Excellen is thinking now that there are more posts since I've seen him around a couple times.

@YOLO, Bossanova: is RoseSGS one of your dudes? Don't know them but I feel like I've seen the name before fsr

(Also the bad meta calls thing doesn't really include Via's Vhaltz read, so we're clear.)

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##vote vhaltz

shuld die. see yall soon

[Snike]

Wait. Mancer, Rapier, and Kirsche are all playing? Fuck my read life.

I'm not sure how one can jump the gun as well as intentionally misrepresent someone else, so Rapier needs to elaborate/pick a story wrt that. I'm going to keep my vote on him for that + the fact that he claimed he was taking 'obvious bait'. I don't get why one would announce that because it ruins the reaction test for said bait.

Also numbers are easy to fake in low # setups like this so I'm not willing to give him credit for claiming that.

I think excellen is being excellen in the sense that he's taking the game super seriously. In other words it reminds me of his in-thread and in-pm play in Badass 2.

Shin needs to post more, as well as elaborate on the self-vote I guess? I thought it was a weird take on RVS but, I digress.

I'm not sold on vhaltz wagon if only because I think that the intervention in the rapier/len debacle was more of an attempt to bring excellen up to speed with current meta (?) though I don't think excellen needed that. It sort of ruins Shin's reaction test (?) but I thought Rapier's case of doing the same was more egregious. I can agree the vote parking comment was defensive, but I don't see where he pursued either player aggressively like kirsche mentioned in #104.

Kirsche's initial voting reason for Vhaltz + the aggressive remark strike me as off, honestly. Former for bringing in the reason of not advancing the game state which felt like it was semi-lifted from the antecedent prims post. I'd like to look at him later, if Rapier improves.

YoloSWAG needs to share their thoughts with the thread. Why are you voting Vhaltz, and what are your thoughts on Rapier?

One last thing: Baker's the role we lynch D1 to starve the mafia, right?

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##dunk on vhaltz

nba finals flavor boi

waddup yall

everythin bout vhaltz disgusts me. when he came into the thread to school up browning on the self meta thing (52) it stuck out to me hardbody but i was hopin niggas wuld let him keep posting before jumping down his throat for it to see if hed continue. i also noticed him mentioning that shin self votes for the sake of reactions and that an eye should be kept out for anyone hoppin on shin cuz it may have scum intent. why even point that out? his telegraphing there and then later in the game where hes like "oh im waiting for paperblade cuz x and rapier cuz y" bother me. also why the hell would he say "i pointed out brownings problem cuz i didnt want him to dig up a grave (69)" instead of jus letting niggas post? he couldve used that to go after potential scum who would be taking advantage of browning tripping over her own words. and why isnt he voting 1 of rapier/paper if he dislikes their posts? 98 grimy as well where hes like "scum is outside of current conversation cuz they wouldnt give a fuck about spamming up the thread" what the fuck? id LOVE to be scum and spam the thread hardbody over useless shit. that in addition to not naming WHO in this case is town. why does he name kirsche as town in 107 but not name townies earlier when making that comment? i jus feel a tone of trying to APPEAR helpful thus blending in. i think a townie wuld b likelier to keep their cards closer to their chest let things play out and then get their hands dirty for the sake of scumhunting

yo ima b back quote was lookin like scum earlier but ima go reread some shit to be sure right quick

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

fos quote

quotes 75 = "i have a hard time reading shin" -> "dunno my gutreads" -> "feeling kinda weird about rapier" -> "prims shin vote is good but he bothers me" -> "i think i know shins meta but i dont" why say these things? thats not including 82 "kinda...kinda" and 112 "im no longer sure on my vhaltz read" they remind me of noncommittal language ive seen scum use to disguise non stances as content. i read over the posts and feel like he might be nervous scum. im given pause due to his vote on vhaltz that i like but that might be nullified by his stated uncertainty and musing about another vote. its enough that it stands out more to me than anyone else

as for other things that niggas said/asked about me. rosesgs is indeed 1 of my people. im votin vhaltz cuz i think hes scum. rapiers null. speakin of which im not master belch thats gorf and larsa wont be appearing in this game unfortunately

[Percivalé]

i don't think i've ever played with you but i always play like that

[Percivalé]

sorry like you can tell me "play better then" but people tend to scumread me for stuff I always do ED1 if they've never played with me before/am not used to playing with me/sometimes in anon games and I don't really know how to defend myself against that kind of thing, I have a hard time reading Shin but I don't think his noncommittal/silly response earlier in the game was scummy, it read like someone who still thought RVS was going on actually and I'm used to him playing that way & I already said I was waiting for more content from him. I'd actually still rather keep my vote on Vhaltz because Prims's Vhaltz vote explains why he voted him way better than I could have even though I tried.

also I say stuff like "kinda" and "I feel" and "I think," "maybe," etc. a lot out of habit and I can try to cut it down when I play but I can't promise anything.

And yes I have a gut scumread on Rapier, fight me irl dude

[Percivalé]

and yes I can't sleep whatever.

I don't think Prims feels weird anymore to me by the way. I noticed that whenever Prims is town I tend to scumread him at first (he's had a kind of apathetic-ish start to games lately but I know it's not really his fault) but then he'll end up posting something bigger and more serious and then I feel better. When he's scum that feeling never really goes away but I think for now Im all right with him. I really don't know about anyone else right now except again I wouldn't vote Excellen or Mancer today.

[Prims]

I haven't seen Via (quote) roll scum in... two years apparently but I'm reading the self-consciousness as a null personality thing at worst and a town tell at best - if the meta read on Vhaltz wasn't real I don't think they'd be super concerned about how people perceive them (as a player, not their alignment) because of it.

Yolo, do you have a read you're willing to share on Bossa yet?

Iffy on Snike's post. I can't infer any alignment-related conclusions from his comments on Shin and Excellen and I'm not sure why he brought them up. kirsche lifting a point from my post is meaningless when a) two townies can agree on things b) kirsche pushed it more aggressively like an actual read. Also the Vhaltz defense doesn't cover my case. Snike, are you actually reading Vhaltz as town or do you just not want to lynch him?

[Shin]

Cool, that was pretty fun! Sometimes doing no works gets amazing results! To anyone who couldn't figure out why I self voted, I'm sure there's a guide explaining it somewhere! Also, I'm British and timezones... I also sleep at night!

I was intrigued to where Excellen was going. The "It's in the guide, I must be right" agenda didn't seem inherently scummy, mostly because it was a pretty weak angle. I'm feeling it's more likely to be town who really hasn't kept up with mafia and relies on horribly outdated guides than scum trying start an early case. Vhaltz's post doesn't really do much other than explain the content rather than trying to make anything from it. It may be because he can't actually get any information from it, but the explanation is unusual without anything else in the post.

Rapier's vote on him seems pretty easy though, I don't see the scum intent behind Excellen's act because I think it's more silly than anything else. This bothers me though. If it's not scum, but still anti-town, what do you actually think I am then?

The kirsche/Via doublevote on Vhaltz bothers me, although that might be because they came so close together. I can kinda get where it's coming from, but it caught my eye. Mancer's guilty of the same thing as Rapier, jumping at Excellen for their vote.

Prims, you're a bit of a pickle. There's a lot that's happened from my initial vote and you haven't really responded to much other content. I can accept I'm absolutely amazing, but the focus is rather interesting. I don't like Via's reliance on meta, it makes their cases feel weaker, especially after their own admission that they might not be right.

To people defending Shin, do you actually think he's town or just that the post I'm voting him for is a null tell?

I think he's totally town, bro. Although your frustrations at people defending me are interesting, this seems like a good way to get people to produce a case rather than push one.

kirsche's Vhaltz explanation makes sense, I felt his explanation earlier was good enough, but additional clarification never hurts.

The Vhaltz unvote post leaves his play really empty and like a "get out of jail free" card. He was casing kirsche pretty hard, and now he's kinda got nothing. I never felt that Vhaltz tried to defend himself, or even raise many other points, it's like he's trying to get out of the spotlight. I don't think Vhaltz is at any risk of being turbolynched so I feel relatively safe committing to a vote.

##Unvote

##Siesta: Vhaltz

Prims kinda bothers me too, I usually see him as an analytic mastermind but he feels really reluctant to put stuff out. The problem is I don't see him voting Vhaltz if he were scum, since the pair are probably my top two reads. Everyone else is currently varying shades of null, although I might be inclined to lean town on kirsche, he seems pretty solid, and Excellen, because I don't really see scum going for a move like that. Although that really does depend if Excellen can move past the first couple of pages, the game's developed a fair bit since then.

[Percivalé]

dude I never said I was relying on meta I only really mentioned meta when it came to my Vhaltz case and I got asked to explain it so I did. I really wouldn't have otherwise because it didn't feel relevant to me. come on.

I don't care that Kirsche and I voted Vhaltz at the same time, that was kinda funny, but you saying it's "weird" implies you think we might be scum doubleteaming him but then you go ahead and throw a townread on Kirsche.