Is John McCain a war hero?

[Chiki]

It's been coming up a lot recently.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/20/politics/john-mccain-donald-trump-comments/

I have to say that I agree with Donald Trump here (but for different reasons).

John McCain killed a bunch of innocent people in Vietnam: http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-07-29/columns/is-mccain-a-war-criminal-who-has-served-his-time/2

How the hell is someone a war hero if they go around massacring innocent people and then get captured and tortured? He couldn't even get captured right since he quickly spilled all the information he had to his captors: He did nothing good for his country whatsoever.

http://newsone.com/942/the-real-john-mccain-vietnam-story/

Unlike the many Arab prisoners in Guantanamo bay and Abu Ghraib, McCain quickly cracked under the pressure of his captors. Giving up all relevant information he had and issuing a statement, “I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of a war pirate…I almost died and the Vietnamese people saved my life thanks to the doctors”

Imo John McCain is a war criminal, not a war hero, who should be imprisoned for life. I find it disgusting that so many Americans get offended at the thought that McCain isn't a war hero. Thoughts?

NC: McCain is another example of very effective propaganda-creation imagery. I mean, suppose there was a Russian pilot who was bombing civilian targets in Afghanistan and was shot down and tortured by the American-run Islamic fanatic terrorists there. Would we say he’s a war hero? Would we say he’s an expert in strategic and security issues, because he was a bomber of civilian targets? We wouldn’t. But this is the image that’s been created of McCain. His heroism and his expertise and strategy are based on the fact that he was bombing people from 30,000 feet and he was shot down. It’s not nice that he was tortured, it shouldn’t have happened, it was a crime, and so on. But that doesn’t make him a war hero or a specialist in foreign policy. That’s all a public relations creation. The public relations industry is a huge industry, very sophisticated. Probably something like a sixth of the gross domestic product goes into marketing, advertising, and so on, and that’s a core element of society. It’s the way you keep people separated from one another, subdued, and focused on something else. And this is explicit and, as I say, it’s all discussed in public relations propaganda.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Chiki

[EricaofRenais]

I agree with you I don't think he is a hero at all. I live in an area where the survivors of a Japanese death march came from, they are real heroes.

[MacLovin]

1. You can't blame someone for breaking under torture. Even the mere THREAT of torture is a viable reason to surrender. (Viet Cong horror stories man.)

2. Lots of Vietnam vets had to kill innocent people. It's what gives quite a lot of them ptsd.

3. I think people get the whole "he's a war hero" thing from that presidential campaign he was part of. Kind of like JFK being called a war hero.

under what grounds would you call him a friggin war criminal, when there are plenty of military personnel that underwent somewhat similar situations.

[Chiki]

1. You can't blame someone for breaking under torture. Even the mere THREAT of torture is a viable reason to surrender. (Viet Cong horror stories man.)

2. Lots of Vietnam vets had to kill innocent people. It's what gives quite a lot of them ptsd.

3. I think people get the whole "he's a war hero" thing from that presidential campaign he was part of. Kind of like JFK being called a war hero.

under what grounds would you call him a friggin war criminal, when there are plenty of military personnel that underwent somewhat similar situations.

I'd call him a war criminal because he killed innocent people. I'd call all of those people who killed innocents war criminals. They could have refused to serve like Muhammad Ali, but nope, they wanted to kill innocent people instead because they're sociopaths and sick people.

[Naughx]

A hero, probably not...

A war criminal, I don't know.

---

I think we should let the republican party destroy itself.

[Topazd]

Imprisonment for life does nothing beneficial for anyone, when the imprisoned would be of no danger to society.

Wouldn't call him a war hero, but it's silly to claim people specifically enlisted to kill innocents, on account of being sociopaths no less.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Topazd

[Falling]

Soldiers Promote into Halberdiers, not Heroes

I don't think we call someone a war hero just because they were captured in a war and tortured. I think a "war hero" is someone who actually made a notable impact on the war, so likely McCain doesn't fit that bill.

Still, going through months of Viet Cong torture is something that merits a little respect.

[Fly or Die]

... maybe he shouldn't be called a "hero," because he didn't do anything spentacular and he certainly didn't go above his duty. But calling him a war criminal, in my mind, is both disrespectful and naive.

For one thing, the fact that he cracked under torture can't be held against him. Again, not a "hero," but that's just what a normal person would do. In other words, he behaved like a very average person/soldier.

And it's also not fair to hold his bombing mission against him. Soldiers are soldiers; it's not like he had any choices. The fact that he was bombing civilians is the fault of the government (and thus indirectly, the people) for waging this war in the first place/resorting to killing civilians. Unless you prefer to blame the Pentagon, which is certainly a legitimate opinion. Regardless, soldiers are the LAST people who should be blamed for this sort of thing. If anything, the average voter has more blood than a common soldier.

[Dwalin2010]

I'd call him a war criminal because he killed innocent people. I'd call all of those people who killed innocents war criminals. They could have refused to serve like Muhammad Ali, but nope, they wanted to kill innocent people instead because they're sociopaths and sick people.

I agree with every single word. Killing innocents can be never justified in my opinion, no matter if you are the commander who gives the order or the shooter who executes it. If the situation is so extreme, the most honorable thing would be simply to refuse obeying such an order and even face the military court. I can't say about every other person, but for me personally it would be easier to go to jail for a long time than pulling the trigger on somebody NOT in self-defense and living with it through the whole life. I mean, after a military court conviction you will serve your time, get out and continue to live with a clear conscience, while if you kill somebody innocent, it will be like serving a life sentence till you die from a psychological point of view.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Dwalin2010

[Naughx]

Soldiers are soldiers; it's not like he had any choices.

Conscientious objectors can still move out of their country.

He had a choice: To flee or to mass murder.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Naughx

[Lord Raven]

I agree with every single word. Killing innocents can be never justified in my opinion, no matter if you are the commander who gives the order or the shooter who executes it. If the situation is so extreme, the most honorable thing would be simply to refuse obeying such an order and even face the military court. I can't say about every other person, but for me personally if would be easier to go to jail for a long time than pulling the trigger on somebody NOT in self-defense and living with it through the whole life. I mean, after a military court conviction you will serve your time, get out and continue to live with a clear conscience, while if you kill somebody innocent, it will be like serving a life sentence till you die from a psychological point of view.

I don't know, have you been in that situation that you can confidently say that? I'm sure John McCain thought that he would be able to resist torture and take the pain for his country but nope, not quite what happened.

Things change a lot when it is life or death, facing military court or not, and even sometimes how the orders are relayed to you may be different in tone than the reality of the situation. Ever heard of generals who mince words? And besides, I can't imagine being able to differentiate things or think clearly when you're actually in the environment. Vietnam was some shit as a war.

I'm sure it's easy as hell to say all of that shit from a comfortable chair at home. I'm not really justifying anything he's done, but I'm saying that you are definitely talking down on a whole subset of people who face a much different and significantly (and I mean SIGNIFICANTLY) more stressful environment than you are right now.

My personal view is that nobody is really ever a hero or purely a criminal, so I can't say for sure I care for John McCain's status as a hero or not. Labeling anyone or anything you really don't directly know as a hero is dangerous no matter what, so whatever his title is doesn't matter to me in the slightest.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Dwalin2010]

I don't know, have you been in that situation that you can confidently say that? I'm sure John McCain thought that he would be able to resist torture and take the pain for his country but nope, not quite what happened.

Things change a lot when it is life or death, facing military court or not, and even sometimes how the orders are relayed to you may be different in tone than the reality of the situation. Ever heard of generals who mince words? And besides, I can't imagine being able to differentiate when you're actually in the environment.

I'm sure it's easy as hell to say all of that shit from a comfortable chair at home. I'm not really justifying anything he's done, but I'm saying that you are definitely talking down on a whole subset of people who face a much different and significantly (and I mean SIGNIFICANTLY) more stressful environment than you are right now.

I am sure I wouldn't resist torture (I admit that I am weak and not tough, and I don't blame McCain for cracking under torture), but to pull a trigger on an innocent, this should require a big psychological effort. I am not saying I would pretend to be a hero and making speeches against the commander, I would probably simply freeze when ordered to pull the trigger and be unable to move (even if it's sign of psychological weakness, don't you think it this case it's better being "weak" than being "strong" enough to force yourself to pull the trigger?).

[Lord Raven]

I am sure I wouldn't resist torture (I admit that I am weak and not tough, and I don't blame McCain for cracking under torture), but to pull a trigger on an innocent, this should require a big psychological effort. I am not saying I would pretend to be a hero and making speeches against the commander, I would probably simply freeze when ordered to pull the trigger and be unable to move (even if it's sign of psychological weakness, don't you think it this case it's better being "weak" than being "strong" enough to force yourself to pull the trigger?).

I mean my point was, you're saying all this now, but do you earnestly believe you'd do what you're saying?

It's not really psychological weakness either way. I think psychological weakness is being unable to go against what your natural instincts tell you or some shit like that, I don't really care because those terms are pretty meaningless as a whole. I am wondering if you would truly be able to interpret an order as something like "killing civilians" given the pressure you will be under. I wouldn't be surprised if its worded in such a way that makes it seem like you're not doing so when you in reality are.

I don't even know what I would do nor do I claim to know what I would do. I imagine it's so much different when you're out there.

[Dwalin2010]

I mean my point was, you're saying all this now, but do you earnestly believe you'd do what you're saying?

It's not really psychological weakness either way. I think psychological weakness is being unable to go against what your natural instincts tell you or some shit like that, I don't really care because those terms are pretty meaningless as a whole. I am wondering if you would truly be able to interpret an order as something like "killing civilians" given the pressure you will be under. I wouldn't be surprised if its worded in such a way that makes it seem like you're not doing so when you in reality are.

I don't even know what I would do nor do I claim to know what I would do. I imagine it's so much different when you're out there.

I understand, but then it's unlikely I would be ever be in that situation anyway (at least I would have done everything I can to prevent it). Could become a conscientious objector, desert from the army etc. And besides, I don't think they would have accepted me anyway even if I wanted to, because I have a very weak sight (-9 on every eye) and suffer from asthma since birth. It's way better not to be in that situation anyway, rather then becoming psychologically twisted after all the battleground experiences and having a weight from war crimes on my conscience.

[Topazd]

Conscientious objectors can still move out of their country.

He had a choice: To flee or to mass murder.

People have differing views on what significance nationality means to them, and for some, it may be too much to ask them to abandon their nation simply because of unethical orders. I'd also be willing to bet none of this seemed as clear for the soldiers themselves as it does to us now - this is all within a context of war, after all.

[Dwalin2010]

People have differing views on what significance nationality means to them, and for some, it may be too much to ask them to abandon their nation simply because of unethical orders. I'd also be willing to bet none of this seemed as clear for the soldiers themselves as it does to us now - this is all within a context of war, after all.

But it's not a computer game. Soldier or not, patriot or not, when you do your first killing, isn't this always a big stress for a normal person, when they see all these blood splashed, smashed skulls, human intestines outside in pieces etc? It's not like a person can simply say "this is my country, I will do WHATEVER IT TAKES to enforce its position".

Edited July 21, 2015 by Dwalin2010

[Lord Raven]

Bear in mind that being in such a high stress environment leads to high amounts of adrenaline. I doubt they have any time to cope with this.

You're really underestimating just how high stress this environment is, and high stress environments lead to you doing some very irrational things. There's a reason the majority of generals don't even take part in the war themselves.

I think this choice is very simplistic in a computer game. This choice is not so cut and dry in real life.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

Bear in mind that being in such a high stress environment leads to high amounts of adrenaline. I doubt they have any time to cope with this.

You're really underestimating just how high stress this environment is, and high stress environments lead to you doing some very irrational things. There's a reason the majority of generals don't even take part in the war themselves.

I think this choice is very simplistic in a computer game. This choice is not so cut and dry in real life.

Sorry, but I don't see why bombing civilians is stressful.

[dondon151]

being commanded to bomb people in the middle of a violent conflict when there are bits and pieces of questionable information flying around is pretty stressful

[Knight]

Unless he made the call to kill the civilians, I wouldn't consider him a criminal. I wouldn't blame him for giving in to torture either. I would not agree with the notion that he's a hero, however, as he hasn't really performed any action that can be considered heroic. Of course, I'm not an expert on American history, I know little about the Vietnam war.

[Phoenix Wright]

you can't lay blame on soldiers for simply following orders, since not following those orders can lead to quite severe punishment. that's how most military are structured. if soldiers go out of their way to fuck shit up, then i can definitely see the other side's viewpoint.

Sorry, but I don't see why bombing civilians is stressful.

use a little imagination. how do you think you'd be doing psychologically when you're:

--just a soldier in the military and can't disagree with a decision from the higher-ups

--at war

--...in a foreign place, where potentially everything around you wants you dead

--you have to bomb shit but it doesn't make sense why you're bombing certain places

--and you know that those bombings will kill innocent people

officers (as far up as is necessary) should be held accountable for most criminal decisions, not soldiers.

edit: but let me answer the question. of course mccain isn't a war hero. but it's out of politeness that we call him, and almost every other soldier in the us military, a hero. most of the time, anyway. after 'nam soldiers weren't so well-received...

Edited July 21, 2015 by Phoenix Wright

[Lord Raven]

given that chiki doesn't have a conscience or a sense of sympathy, it would probably be as tense for him as it was responding to my post

[Chiki]

With the outbreak of the Vietnam War, McCain volunteered for combat duty and began flying carrier-based attack planes on low-altitude bombing runs against the North Vietnamese.

And there goes all these sick arguments to defend a war criminal. =_= He didn't need to volunteer, did he? Nope.

given that chiki doesn't have a conscience or a sense of sympathy, it would probably be as tense for him as it was responding to my post

This statement is beyond retarded considering the fact that I'm upset about John McCain killing innocent people. How does that translate into me having no conscience?

Edited July 21, 2015 by Chiki

[Lord Raven]

And there goes all these sick arguments to defend a war criminal. =_= He didn't need to volunteer, did he? Nope.

Are you suggesting he volunteered to bomb civilians or he volunteered to enter the war? Because it was most likely that he received combat training, volunteered to enter the war, then was given orders upon entering which may have been based on his training.

This statement is beyond retarded considering the fact that I'm upset about John McCain killing innocent people. How does that translate into me having no conscience?

Well, not that particular instance, but don't take it too literally. Close to none is not much better. Edited July 21, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

Are you suggesting he volunteered to bomb civilians or he volunteered to enter the war? Because it was most likely that he received combat training, volunteered to enter the war, then was given orders upon entering which may have been based on his training.

Well, not that particular instance, but don't take it too literally. Close to none is not much better.

Strategic bombing has been a thing since WW2. Any rational agent at the time would've considered the probability of strategic bombing and refused to participate.

Let's take a survey. Who is capable of more sympathy and who has a better conscience?

1. The person worried about innocent people being killed

2. The person worried about soldiers being pressured to obey commands

I vote for person 1. I think person 1 is more capable of sympathy for thinking about the lives of innocent people rather than a soldier experiencing stress while taking orders.

What about you guys?

Edited July 21, 2015 by Chiki