Smash 4, Character Discussion Thread. #21 Metaknight

[Jedi]

I think I can agree with that line of thinking this time, maybe I should just do that for ties from now on.

Legendary Pokemon time.

"Behold my powers! I am the most powerful Pokémon in the world!"

Origin: Pokemon Red, Green & Blue

Year: 1996

Developer: Gamefreak

VA: Keiji Fujiwara

Framedata

RSATD: Much like how Mewtwo was the last Pokemon in the original Red, Green, Blue and Yellow, he appears here last of the available Pokemon.

Mewtwo is an interesting beast, he started out yet again with his issues from Melee, however due to recent patches and high level Japanese players playing him, people seem to find him underrated heck Japan has him in their higher part of mid tier and climbing as I speak, he has some really great movement options, mindgames, nice power and speed as well, although on the other side, he's big, light and easy to KO.

Mewtwo needs to remain in control, although he has the makings of a Glass cannon zoning character, mistakes will often spell your doom as opposed to other characters who would take more hits and maybe die, his tail is remarkably long ranged and can chain some nice combos, his aerial game in general is REALLY solid, and shadow ball can be used to apply nice shield pressure. He has some great damaging throws along with a kill throw, while not quite as good as say Ness's or Charizards, it still works pretty well.

I find him fun to use, I just get annoyed when I die at 70/80%

[Radiance]

Strong character that has great moves and high jump. The only problem is that he has a big hurtbox, floaty, and 2nd lightest. Game and watch is heavier and he's 2d. So logical. He shadow ball is really powerful and can kill early as well. They buffed Mewto and that is good, but the weight along with big hurtbox hurts him and that makes him hard to use. I died by Bowser f smash at 45%. I was shocked. He would be so good if he was heavy. I say he is just a regular character that is balanced. Btw what a bad sport who does not clap with he loses.

[General Horace]

I died by Bowser f smash at 45%

to be fair, most characters die to a bowser fsmash at 45%.

He actually has a potentailly ridiculous combo game, and is a lot better with the last patch, but he still has some weird issues with hitboxes (like all moves involving his tail just phase through opponents in some parts of the animation) and is big and light, which sucks.

that's a lot of damage

[Ema Skye]

Not gonna lie, I think he's the biggest benefitter of the 1.1.3 patch.

Mewtwo has some of the best mobility in the game, both in terms of air speed and run speed. He's 3rd fastest in the air and tied for 11th on the ground. ZSS and Greninja are probably the only characters that could rival him in terms of raw mobility stats. His moves are stronger now and they combo better too. Definitely more of a cannon in the "glass cannon" now. If you don't KO him, it's very likely he'll make it back (between Teleport, Shadow Ball, Confusion, Air Dodge and his really high jump, he's got a bunch of options). He's a lightweight zoner with insane mobility. He's got one of the stronger projectiles and an excellent reflector. He's also the only character with a reflector to have a chargeable projectile. He can force an approach pretty well.

Yeah he's got the usual flaws of lightweight and giant hitbox and yes it sucks. Once Mewtwo gets combo'd he's got a tough time getting out of it. But there's much more to this character than that.

Check

out too.

Japan thought he was midtier before the buffs. I've heard a lot of people (on r/smashbros and Smashboards) consider him midtier after the buffs

[Batter the Beast]

Oh hey Mewtwo, my favorite legendary. I dabbled with him a butt ton on release... and he suffered from a lot of flaws. Low weight, big hurtbox, bad hitboxes, bad landing lag, confusion is terrible on the ground, yadda yadda we've heard this stuff a billion times. He wasn't without his redeeming traits, however. His dtilt is one of the best in the game, stuffing a lot of ground approaches and leading into fair, which is another amazing move Mewtwo has. Upthrow and backthrow are good killthrows, which, while not on Ness' level, still KO at relatively low %s, though his grab hitbox is less than stellar. His airdodge has one of the lowest FAFs in the game, meaning that Mewtwo can act quickly out of his airdodge. Not only that, but his airdodge renders him invisible for a little bit (though tags still show, Nintendo pls), meaning that airdodge can serve as a decent mixup tool. Air confusion is a decent combo tool, a way to help Mewtwo recover, and a way to inhibit juggles due to just how far it moves Mewtwo. Speaking of recovery, Mewtwo's double jump is one of the highest game. His flaws really held him back, but these positive traits gave him a little bit of usability and remain after all his changes.

Due to his status as one of the worst fighters in the game, Mewtwo has seen a lot of buffs in patches. The 1.1.3 patch greatly improves Mewtwo's game and, in my opinion, brings him into tournament viability.

[spoiler=Mewtwo's buff history]1.0.8

• Neutral aerial's landing lag decreased: 19 frames → 16.

1.1.0

• Forward throw deals 2.5% more damage: 10.5% → 13%.
• Down smash's knockback growth increased: 112 → 118, KOing 9% earlier.

1.1.3

• Mewtwo's walking speed increased: 1.0 → 1.1
• Mewtwo's dashing speed increased: 1.696 → 1.9, going from being tied for the twentieth fastest to the twelfth fastest.
• Mewtwo's air speed increased: 1.15 → 1.25
• Sourspotted forward smash deals 1% more damage: 15% → 16%.
• Forward smash's hitbox size increased: 2.0 → 3.0.
• Neutral aerial's landing lag decreased: 16 frames → 13.
• Forward aerial's start-up decreased: 6 frames → 5.
• Forward aerial's range increased due to having moved forward one unit.
• Forward aerial's landing lag decreased: 18 frames → 14.
• Back aerial's x-axis offset increased: 5.1 → 5.5.
• Back aerial's landing lag decreased: 21 frames → 17.
• Up aerial's damage increased: 7% → 9% (far) → 9% → 10% (mid).
• Up aerial's hitboxes' sizes increased: 4.7 → 5.0 (hitbox 0), 3.9 → 4.5 (hitbox 1), 3.1 → 4.0 (hitbox 2).
• Up aerial's base knockback increased: 0 → 40.
• Up aerial's landing lag decreased: 16 frames → 13.
• Down aerial's hitbox duration increased: 2 frames → 4.
• Down aerial's hitboxes have moved down one unit, giving it more range.
• Down aerial's landing lag decreased: 22 frames → 18.
• Down throw's angle altered: 69° → 74°.
• Shadow Ball's hitbox size increased.
• Shadow Ball's aerial recoil decreased.
• Shadow Ball's visuals improved.
• Confusion's range increased due to its grab parameter having become larger.

Note - a few things were nerfed, but they are insignificant compared to the sheer amount of buffs he's received

sources: smashboards & ssbwiki

With these changes, Mewtwo now has almost no issues with landing lag, and confusion functions a tad better. Now, Mewtwo holds the title of the twelfth fastest character, tied with Meta Knight, a character who benefits from his good run speed. This means that, along with the other speed changes. Mewtwo's mixup game is that much better. Fair is now practically safe on shield, and comes out at a blistering frame 5, making it a good move to just throw out in the neutral, especially because it still has decent damage and KO power. Up air is now a much better tool, and is now an incredible juggling and air dodge punishing move. Back air's hitbox now matches the animation better, meaning that it hits very high, stuffing many aerial approaches. Nair's lower landing lag means it is an okay mixup tool and combo starter, though I honestly wouldn't rely on it that much since it still has too much landing lag to be a tool in the neutral. Mewtwo's ground options were already pretty good, so those didn't really need to be changed much.

All is not is well in Mewtwo's world, however. He still has the second lowest weight in the game as well as a big hurtbox, meaning that on top of getting KOd early, a lot of moves can hit him. This arguably makes him glassier than Jiggs. Mewtwo also doesn't have super fast options in the neutral. While fair comes out on a fast frame 5, that is his fastest option in a game with 1-2 frame jabs and the like. Mewtwo will lose a jab war with anyone in the upper tiers, which hinders his neutral. Disable is very situational, though if it lands at >90 or so, Mewtwo can charge up an upsmash for the stock. Grounded confusion is still awful and Mewtwo has almost no good options out of a low % grab except 13% from fthrow and a bit more damage from pummel. His grab frame data and hitbox is also just abysmal. He also can't just throw out smashes with abandon like other characters due to the large endlag on most of them, though his smashes generally KO at about 100% or so.

So while Mewtwo is flawed, his neutral, juggle, and KO game is pretty darn good now, and his spacing tools are overall great, meaning that he's actually a glass cannon now instead of a glass nerf gun. I'm thinking about dual maining this guy with Megaman, he's that good now.

Edited January 22, 2016 by Batter the Beast

[Jedi]

Wow there were more buffs to him than I was aware of.

[Michelaar]

This is my main :)

[Great Geargia Gateway]

I didn't know it was Mew2, and yet... I was playing Mew2 for shits and gigs. Still, it's got nothing going for it's approaches, options out grabs or Side B, and flexibility against a lot of fighters.

Speed is useful, UpThrow is good, DTilt, Up Smash is good, Air attacks are good and that Dair *Licks lips*, and Down B is quite good for a punish... which turns into a greater punish.

Why does DSmash suck tho? There's no use for it, since FSmash is the exact same and yet more damage and range. And why make the DThrow set up right next to you, but unable to connect anything?

[Batter the Beast]

Why does DSmash suck tho? There's no use for it, since FSmash is the exact same and yet more damage and range.

dsmash can be acted out of slightly faster than fsmash (FAF of 44 compared to 53) and has higher KBG (118 vs 90/85) so it KOs earlier (I don't have smash on me atm to test this claim but it'll take like a minute in training mode to test). You can also hit some people in their ledge sweetspot vulnerability so it's worth throwing out when someone is grabbing the ledge. I still prefer to throw out fsmash randomly due to the longer range but dsmash does have its merits.

And why make the DThrow set up right next to you, but unable to connect anything?

I dunno man, they even changed the angle to lead into stuff better but the hitstun is too low and/or the FAF is too high on dthrow. If I get a grab at low % I just pummel and fthrow but I'm almost never going for a grab at low% because I'm too busy spamming tilts.

[Radiance]

Whats cringe worthy is that Pikachui, a regular Pokemon is heavier than Mewto and really good. I dont like pokemon, but I know the basic.

[Jedi]

Yeah Mewtwos weight in smash never made that much sense to me.

Also I've seen some wacky things, I forget what tourney it was, but this Mewtwo side b'd someone in midair and swiped at them with fair right after and it landed perfectly.

[Radiance]

I question the developers logic. Mewto would have been such a great heavy character that is fast, good juggle, good jump and recovery as well as KO moves. Otherwise, a mouse will live longer along with a 2 dimesional charcter. 250 pound legendary Pokemon I don't know why.

[General Horace]

don't think confusion ever sets up anything guarunteed, but it can catch people off guard if they aren't expecting it. It's not as shitty as it was previously though.

[Radiance]

Thats for sure. You got a point

[Jedi]

It might have been a weird Melee "balancing" choice, but for 4, I think that they tried to make him somewhat like he was in Melee for consistency sake and it hurt him, although he's way better here than he was in Melee.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Jedi

[Radiance]

Yeah, but why? He is DLC and far by the least better one than all the others. Not saying he is bad, but do our Legendary better. He was free for me anyways.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Radiance

[Ema Skye]

Honestly, I think Mewtwo's light because physically it makes sense.

When you're floating around, you're obviously easier to knock around. You don't have gravity to help you out.

He's light for the same reason Rosalina is, since they both primarily float around.

That said, I don't know why he's the second lightest fighter because that seems really excessive. I'd personally peg him around Peach/Marth weight like he was in Melee. Melee Mewtwo had a bazillion flaws, but I don't think a weight increase would've helped his competitive standing that much.

[Radiance]

It would. If he gets juggled as a light character, they should make him heavy and wont be different. A weight buff should be applied due to his properties

[euklyd]

Honestly, I think Mewtwo's light because physically it makes sense.

When you're floating around, you're obviously easier to knock around. You don't have gravity to help you out.

He's light for the same reason Rosalina is, since they both primarily float around.

That said, I don't know why he's the second lightest fighter because that seems really excessive. I'd personally peg him around Peach/Marth weight like he was in Melee. Melee Mewtwo had a bazillion flaws, but I don't think a weight increase would've helped his competitive standing that much.

it might make sense intuitively but it doesn't really make sense physically

"weight" in smash bros is essentially mass, esp since there's already a separate gravity calculation; mass doesn't affect how fast you fall irl. it does affect how easy it is to influence your acceleration, and what we think of as "weight" in smash does directly influence knockback. if mewtwo is only reducing the effect gravity has on him, then he should have a low fall speed and a high mass (like samus)

tl;dr smash has fucked physics

[Zera]

Smash Bros. has freaky physics so it can keep all the characters' movement properties authentic. It's the reason Samus can be realistically heavy but still floaty like in her own games, etc.

[Jedi]

Are we done with Mewtwo or is there more to be said.

[Radiance]

R.I.P Mewto. Nothing else much to say

[Jedi]

Votes begin again and will end on the 29th.

[Carmine Sword]

Mii Brawler.

[Ice Sage]

Robin and Toon Link