Criminal OC Mafia - Game Thread - N5 ends 14/09/2015

[Mitsuki]

Why do you think he's scum? Do you agree with my case? Which points, and why?

[Faerie Knight]

Primarily, I don't like his apathy. I think town would have made more of a push to defend themselves, in and out of thread. The case you bring is pretty good, pointing out his seeming lack of interest even before, and the slip of saying there's probably a doctor but not necessarily strongman, which indeed is something that sounds like it's coming from scum that already know. Town would lean toward there being a strongman to counter the doctor, imo. But it's his making little attempt to defend his case that bothers me most.

[Mitsuki]

Let's look at the facts: The cop is dead, and if this is 10/4/1 as Refa thought, we only have one mislynch left due to NLing D1. Usually you'd think we're pretty screwed.

Let's face it, we don't know how to play OC. At least not most of us. So let's use the thread as if it were NOC.

That doesn't mean stopping using OC means, of course. Use them as much as you want, they're there for a reason. But your cases and your thoughts on other people's cases, as long as they don't rely in private info, should go in the thread. OC is for roles, NOC is for tells. Let's make the best use we can of both.

So let's get started, ##Vote: Reinfleche

Disregard the last part of my post, which we already talked about, and Blitz's thoughts on (not) lynching the ITP.

BBM also brought a relevant point in Skype that goes in line with my first point:

BBM asked Rein about his thoughts on the game after the D1 NL, and Rein told him about he NL and Refa, but didn't tell him about his Faerie scumread. As far as I can tell, Rein only told people about his scumread when he was directly asked about it, which is further proof about him not caring about pushing his scumreads.

BBM, if you can post the chat in the thread it'd be appreaciated.

Also, I don't like how Paperblade jumped to defend Rein when I asked him about my case, but around a day before that he told Marth that Rein could be scum. If Rein was town and Paperblade had something to suspect him on I would have expected him to contact me and tell me he thought Rein was scum as well, even if he told me that he didn't agree with my case anyways.

[Mitsuki]

And yeah, before anyone asks, not voting was a terrible idea and I do think Rein is scum, so

[riariadne]

[spoiler=a conversation i had with refa about why mitsuki's post is dumb][9/3/15, 8:44:19 AM] Reinfleche: talk to me when you're on and i am

[9/3/15, 8:44:28 AM] Refalver Ocelot: yes

[9/3/15, 8:44:32 AM] Reinfleche: hi

[9/3/15, 8:44:37 AM] Reinfleche: well. not now.

[9/3/15, 8:44:37 AM] Refalver Ocelot: yo

[9/3/15, 8:44:39 AM] Refalver Ocelot: lol

[9/3/15, 8:44:41 AM] Reinfleche: i have class soon.

[9/3/15, 8:44:46 AM] Refalver Ocelot: later

[9/3/15, 8:46:50 AM] Refalver Ocelot: oh okay

[9/3/15, 8:46:51 AM] Reinfleche: basically mitsuki's post is

[9/3/15, 8:46:53 AM] Reinfleche: really dumb

[9/3/15, 8:46:54 AM] Refalver Ocelot: i didn't read it

[9/3/15, 8:47:02 AM] Reinfleche: and i will get into it more later

[9/3/15, 8:47:12 AM] Refalver Ocelot: do you think it's scummy dumb or just dumb tho

[9/3/15, 9:46:08 PM] Reinfleche: what are ur thoughts

[9/3/15, 9:46:15 PM] Reinfleche: on mituski's writeup

[9/3/15, 9:46:40 PM] Refalver Ocelot: first point made sense the other two were shaky

[9/3/15, 9:46:54 PM] Reinfleche: which is the first one

[9/3/15, 9:47:04 PM] Refalver Ocelot: the one about the motivation or w/e

[9/3/15, 9:47:24 PM] Refalver Ocelot: only reason i'm not super sure is because

[9/3/15, 9:47:56 PM] Refalver Ocelot: i can see you being less interested as town considering ur role

[9/3/15, 9:47:56 PM] Reinfleche: i was busy as shit and hadn't fully read everything right when i talked to her

[9/3/15, 9:48:30 PM] Reinfleche: i already told you that i rescinded some of my FK suspicion when I realized one of the posts i thought was his was actually izuhark's

[9/3/15, 9:48:37 PM] Refalver Ocelot: yeah

[9/3/15, 9:48:40 PM] Reinfleche: because they have similar avatars and i don't know them at all

[9/3/15, 9:48:40 PM] Refalver Ocelot: i told her that

[9/3/15, 9:49:03 PM] Reinfleche: the doc one is

[9/3/15, 9:49:05 PM] Reinfleche: stupid as hell

[9/3/15, 9:49:10 PM] Refalver Ocelot: doc one?

[9/3/15, 9:49:23 PM] Reinfleche: i didn't point out REFA WILL DIE IF THERE'S HITMAN immediately

[9/3/15, 9:49:34 PM] Reinfleche: hitman's like not even a popular role in games not made by me

[9/3/15, 9:49:39 PM] Reinfleche: and doctor is in way more games

[9/3/15, 9:49:45 PM] Refalver Ocelot: oh yeah i don't really agree with that

[9/3/15, 9:49:51 PM] Reinfleche: and she was like SCUMSLIP

[9/3/15, 9:50:05 PM] Reinfleche: like and even if there was what are we gonna do about it

[9/3/15, 9:50:22 PM] Refalver Ocelot: if there was the only way to prove it is like

[9/3/15, 9:50:25 PM] Reinfleche: "wow this is a thought provoking discussion that refa will probs die if there's a hitman everyone will agree on"

[9/3/15, 9:50:37 PM] Refalver Ocelot: if there was some way that knowing there wasn't a hitman which would be

[9/3/15, 9:50:39 PM] Reinfleche: didn't seem worth mentioning to me

[9/3/15, 9:50:41 PM] Refalver Ocelot: like impossible

[9/3/15, 9:50:49 PM] Reinfleche: yeah

[9/3/15, 9:51:01 PM] Reinfleche: then she was like that's why blitz died N1???

[9/3/15, 9:51:25 PM] Reinfleche: it's a huge stretch

[9/3/15, 9:51:49 PM] Reinfleche: i was going to talk to her today but i had 3 classes and didn't think about it until now.

[9/3/15, 9:51:56 PM] Refalver Ocelot: blitz kill confuses me for other reasons

[9/3/15, 9:52:00 PM] Reinfleche: i still have no intention of making a response post

[9/3/15, 9:52:07 PM] Refalver Ocelot: well yeah i figured lol

[9/3/15, 9:52:23 PM] Refalver Ocelot: but yeah like the only person who knew his role was me so it's like ????

[9/3/15, 9:52:33 PM] Refalver Ocelot: unless scum rolecopped him on n0 i guess

[9/3/15, 9:52:37 PM] Reinfleche: wat if ur mafia.jpg

[9/3/15, 9:53:03 PM] Refalver Ocelot: lol

[9/3/15, 9:53:11 PM] Refalver Ocelot: then this would be a lot easier

[9/3/15, 9:53:13 PM] Reinfleche: i don't think you're mafia but i think you did the worst possible option d1

[9/3/15, 9:53:23 PM] Refalver Ocelot: i mean i agree but mreh

[9/3/15, 9:53:31 PM] Refalver Ocelot: tbh as mafia i'd probably lynch sb

[9/3/15, 9:53:38 PM] Refalver Ocelot: so people wouldn't question me

[9/3/15, 9:53:46 PM] Reinfleche: and if you did other mafia things then maybe conspiracy keanu refa edition would be more relevant

[9/3/15, 9:53:57 PM] Refalver Ocelot: hahahaha

[9/3/15, 9:54:09 PM] Reinfleche: i never listen to anyone who says "i would do x as alignment"

[9/3/15, 9:54:20 PM] Reinfleche: because it's a biased perspective

[9/3/15, 9:54:26 PM] Refalver Ocelot: yeah i mean i'm biased

[9/3/15, 9:54:29 PM] Reinfleche: also i use it too much when i'm anti town

[9/3/15, 9:54:45 PM] Reinfleche: so i recognize it when i see it as irrelevant

[9/3/15, 9:54:48 PM] Refalver Ocelot: i was going to ask you something but i forgot uhhhhhh

[9/3/15, 9:54:56 PM] Reinfleche: gg

[9/3/15, 9:55:01 PM] Reinfleche: is it "r u mafia"

[9/3/15, 9:55:07 PM] Refalver Ocelot: r u mafia

[9/3/15, 9:55:12 PM] Reinfleche: because i have an answer for you and it is "i am not the moofias"

[9/3/15, 9:55:13 PM] Refalver Ocelot: but that wasn't it...

[9/3/15, 9:55:15 PM] Reinfleche: "that's cows"

[9/3/15, 9:55:24 PM] Refalver Ocelot: uh what do you think about mitsuki after that post

[9/3/15, 9:55:31 PM] Reinfleche: idk

[9/3/15, 9:55:35 PM] Reinfleche: i was townreading her before

[9/3/15, 9:55:44 PM] Reinfleche: but those arguments are sooo stretches

[9/3/15, 9:56:03 PM] Refalver Ocelot: aha

[9/3/15, 9:56:04 PM] Reinfleche: "Tl;dr Blitz was scumreading Rein on how he complained about the NL (since he argues that Rein should know that letting the ITP live is a reasonable thing to do in OC) and he also thought Rein was scum bussing Faerie Knight to gain towncred when the D1 deadline had already passed." this is all

[9/3/15, 9:56:05 PM] Reinfleche: so stupid

[9/3/15, 9:56:26 PM] Reinfleche: first of all it's never a good idea to let the itp live

[9/3/15, 9:56:33 PM] Reinfleche: 2nd of all i was in class during deadline

[9/3/15, 9:56:46 PM] Reinfleche: and people did a shitload of vote switching in the hour before

[9/3/15, 9:56:48 PM] Refalver Ocelot: oh yeah who else were you bothered by?

[9/3/15, 9:56:51 PM] Refalver Ocelot: mmmmm

[9/3/15, 9:56:52 PM] Reinfleche: what was i supposed to say

[9/3/15, 9:56:58 PM] Reinfleche: "great no lynch guys"

[9/3/15, 9:57:07 PM] Reinfleche: "this really furthers our town game plan"

[9/3/15, 9:57:45 PM] Reinfleche: (in the context of having 2 via lynch targets, no lynching in OC can be correct but it wasn't here at all)

[9/3/15, 9:58:42 PM] Refalver Ocelot: fair enough

[Dr. Rudy Mjølnir]

And also to keep in mind is that Gaius was townreading Rein despite Mitsuki's arguments against him.

[Mitsuki]

@Rein: I'm amazed at the fact that you're making this something about my case being dumb and not about you being town. I'm here to play mafia, not to play "let's see whose ego is bigger".

[9/3/15, 9:51:01 PM] Reinfleche: then she was like that's why blitz died N1???
^ what, no. I never said that.

I think Blitz died because he's a good player.

Also Blitz's points were Blitz's, not mine, as I said in my post. I brought them up because if I died and had a suspicion, I would like the people who I talked with to bring up my reads.

Anyways Rein's response looks townie to me for the same reason Darrman's response to Elie looked townie. I doubt scum would be this confrontational, and his defense looks genuine. Specially how butthurt he seems to be at the fact that he's been cased. Still, @Rein: Why didn't you prioritize explaining your reads to anyone, and just talked about them when asked about it?

[riariadne]

Because I'm busy

[Elieson]

I think blitz was either fear-scanned N0 by a potential scumcop, or just outright fear-killed N1.

I don't think saying "I was busy" is really a fair defense. What have you done to contribute to the game aside from exist when obviwagons formed?

[9/3/15, 9:49:03 PM] Reinfleche: the doc one is
[9/3/15, 9:49:05 PM] Reinfleche: stupid as hell
[9/3/15, 9:49:23 PM] Reinfleche: i didn't point out REFA WILL DIE IF THERE'S HITMAN immediately
[9/3/15, 9:49:34 PM] Reinfleche: hitman's like not even a popular role in games not made by me
[9/3/15, 9:49:39 PM] Reinfleche: and doctor is in way more games

Hitman isn't a popular role in games not made by me then why didn't you consider a hitman [strongkill] since it's evidently something you're super familiar with

That's like, not even a case

[9/3/15, 9:52:00 PM] Reinfleche: i still have no intention of making a response post

why did you say this again?

[Elieson]

honestly the blitz point is only a stretch if you look at it as if it isn't WIFOM

Why would rein say "I think Blitz will die" on the night that blitz dies? That's my actual defense for town!rein but I don't have much else

[Mitsuki]

And well, I wanted to keep silent about this but I guess it's due time already.

I'm the town leader, at least as long as I live. I have people's claims, since the person who was going to be town leader has contacted me. Let me know your N3 results as soon as you can! I can claim your role to yourself before that if you want to make sure I'm not just making this up, lol. The N4 plan is being worked on~

[riariadne]

I don't think saying "I was busy" is really a fair defense. What have you done to contribute to the game aside from exist when obviwagons formed?

fuck all, i'm not gonna say i did much when i haven't

Hitman isn't a popular role in games not made by me then why didn't you consider a hitman [strongkill] since it's evidently something you're super familiar with

That's like, not even a case

why would hitman be the first thing i think of still rather than a standard nightkill that's in every game, which has a lot more thoughtful discussion to be had than a hitman kill since i thought the point of the question was saying something interesting rather than "refa will die if there's hitman"

why did you say this again?

posting is lame

[Junk]

[9/1/2015 9:09:12 PM] commie scum: pb instead of playing bad pokemon games you should play mafia!

[9/3/2015 3:19:17 PM] commie scum: hello

[9/3/2015 4:45:39 PM] Brad: yo

[9/3/2015 4:45:52 PM] commie scum: so yeah how is mafia going?

[9/3/2015 4:46:04 PM] Brad: good

[9/3/2015 4:59:35 PM] commie scum: do you have any reads?

[9/3/2015 4:59:51 PM] Brad: trying to read Mitsuki's Rein post and talking to her about it

[9/3/2015 5:00:29 PM] commie scum: I agree with mitsuki regarding rein not really pushing his read but I can see rein's POV regarding the choice of night kill

[9/3/2015 5:00:46 PM] Brad: yeah

[9/3/2015 5:00:56 PM] Brad: I also disagree with Blitz on the neutral stuff

[9/3/2015 5:01:13 PM] Brad: this is actually wrong

it backfires on town worse in OC

because the ITP gets outed

and then the mafia or other bad guys can contact them quietly

and the town won't even know about it

for me, at least, the whole "don't let the wolf live holy shti guys" started from a pair of OC games where town tried to do that and use them as a vig

and then the wolf betrayed them

and won

[9/3/2015 5:01:33 PM] Brad: actually I might paste that to the game thread

[9/3/2015 5:01:34 PM] Brad: idk

[Mitsuki]

##unvote since I forgot about it earlier.

I'm disappointed that people aren't posting their scumreads in thread (I'm looking at you, Marth and Izhuark).

I've been reading Paperblade's ISO on some recent games where he was scum (yes I know it's NOC, leave me alone) to see how he tends to interact with his buddies.

I've seen two tendencies: either not very strong bussing or (most times) ignoring them. I haven't seen him defend his buddies. (If you have, please go ahead and say so)

Looking at Paperblade's chat with Marth: Marth talked about his three scumreads at that moment (Junko, Gaius, Gilgamesh, in this order). I'll make a small analysis of Paperblade's response.

[spoiler=Gaius][02-09-2015 10:39:37] Abhi: Gaius could possibly be scum because he's pushing FK as scum just because of his role
[02-09-2015 10:39:54] Abhi: he thinks that FK not answering questions= scum but half the playerlist is already doing that
[02-09-2015 10:40:11] Brad: (^:
[02-09-2015 10:40:15] Abhi: also Gaius has lazy reads otherwise and doesn't even have a lot of scumreads
[02-09-2015 10:40:23] Brad: mmm
[02-09-2015 10:40:28] Brad: what are his other reads
[02-09-2015 10:41:32] Abhi: Scum!Gilg for the 180 on Refa
[02-09-2015 10:41:39] Abhi: and Refa is town because uhh HE JUST IS TOWN
[02-09-2015 10:41:42] Brad: that's gaius's read or yours
[02-09-2015 10:41:48] Abhi: gaius'
[02-09-2015 10:42:02] Brad: ic

I'm analyzing this for the sake of comparison: Paperblade didn't show any interest on Marth's Gaius read, as you can tell from his responses. His only question, about Gaius' other reads, feels like asking for the sake of pretending he's questioning stuff, and not actually caring.

[spoiler=Junko][02-09-2015 10:37:18] Abhi: Junko's posts in thread don't push for anything
[02-09-2015 10:37:26] Brad: it's OC tho
[02-09-2015 10:37:27] Abhi: and he objects for the sake of it
[02-09-2015 10:37:31] Abhi: yeah but
[02-09-2015 10:37:33] Abhi: WHY POST THEN
[02-09-2015 10:37:48] Abhi: these mooks should be like me and never post
[02-09-2015 10:37:53] Brad: idk what he actually said
[02-09-2015 10:37:54] Abhi: be the overlord from above
[02-09-2015 10:37:56] Abhi: well
[02-09-2015 10:38:05] Abhi: basically BBM found Elieson scummy
[02-09-2015 10:38:14] Abhi: so Junko disagreed with what BBM said and waffled
[02-09-2015 10:38:20] Brad: ic
[02-09-2015 10:38:21] Abhi: and objected to it
[02-09-2015 10:38:28] Abhi: but didn't push for anything
[02-09-2015 10:38:43] Brad: mmm
[02-09-2015 10:38:55] Abhi: which looks like scum sitting on the fence, trying to gauge the possibility of a wagon on either side
[02-09-2015 10:38:56] Brad: do you think scm junko would do that if it was 2 townies?
[02-09-2015 10:38:59] Brad: ic

There's some soft defense here, but I still see the same lack of interest in the read. The questioning is slightly better than on Gaius, but I still see it as lackluster. Doesn't feel like he cared about how the read went, so I'm inclined to think Junko is town on this.

[spoiler=Gilgamesh][02-09-2015 10:46:41] Abhi: Scum!Gilg's also possible, but not for having a 180 on Refa
[02-09-2015 10:46:52] Abhi: its what preceded that
[02-09-2015 10:46:59] Brad: so gaius thinks gilg is scum
[02-09-2015 10:47:07] Abhi: yeah, but I too think so'
[02-09-2015 10:47:21] Abhi: I'm gonna say why I think so now
[02-09-2015 10:47:22] Brad: righ
[02-09-2015 10:47:23] Abhi: the thing is
[02-09-2015 10:47:37] Abhi: Gilg was paranoid about Refa being scum so he didn't want to claim to him
[02-09-2015 10:47:48] Abhi: then Blitz convinces him to claim
[02-09-2015 10:48:05] Abhi: so he decides to post in thread saying that he has come to the conclusion that Refa is town
[02-09-2015 10:48:10] Abhi: then N1, Blitz dies
[02-09-2015 10:48:15] Abhi: and BAM, there's the 180
[02-09-2015 10:48:15] Brad: I see
[02-09-2015 10:48:27] Abhi: even though it should be obvious why Refa didn't want to lynch SB
[02-09-2015 10:48:30] Abhi: he suspects Refa
[02-09-2015 10:48:37] Brad: so he thought refa was scum
[02-09-2015 10:48:40] Brad: then thoguht refa was town
[02-09-2015 10:48:44] Brad: then thought he was scum again?
[02-09-2015 10:48:57] Abhi: well his latest post is vague about but it looks that way
[02-09-2015 10:49:07] Abhi: he's still voting SB though
[02-09-2015 10:49:08] Abhi: : S
[02-09-2015 10:49:36] Brad: mm
[02-09-2015 10:50:00] Brad: gilg has only played in that greatest hits game right
[02-09-2015 10:51:11] Abhi: doesn't he have prior maf exp though
[02-09-2015 10:51:17] Brad: does he?
[02-09-2015 10:51:18] Abhi: should probs check his ISO
[02-09-2015 10:51:27] Brad: that doesn't mean he's any good xd
[02-09-2015 10:51:38] Abhi: oh right
[02-09-2015 10:52:56] Abhi: that's true
[02-09-2015 10:53:06] Abhi: he def played Greatest Hits like he knew some mafia though
[02-09-2015 10:53:11] Brad: mmm
[02-09-2015 10:53:16] Brad: but he was lynched like d2 wasn't he
[02-09-2015 10:53:24] Abhi: vigged
[02-09-2015 10:53:26] Abhi: he uh
[02-09-2015 10:53:33] Abhi: made a bad hammer D1
[02-09-2015 10:53:37] Brad: yeah
[02-09-2015 10:53:46] Abhi: and tried to get towncred by claiming to backup the third party cop
[02-09-2015 10:54:16] Brad: l o l
(cut because of Greatest Hits talk)
[02-09-2015 11:01:40] Abhi: what do you make of this info so far?
[02-09-2015 11:02:00] Brad: gilg might just be like
[02-09-2015 11:02:01] Brad: newish
[02-09-2015 11:02:09] Brad: but the situation seems weird
[02-09-2015 11:02:17] Abhi: whaddya mean?
[02-09-2015 11:02:36] Brad: I feel like new people tend to do "scummy" stuff because they don't know any better

Honestly, this one is less clear. I think Paperblade showed an interest in debating this read, as opposite to the other two, which is partly why this log is longer than the other two. I also feel like the his talk was more on the line of having a better idea about the read, and he insisted more in the defense. Still, I don't see that much of a difference, and if Paperblade really doesn't defend his buddies I'm seeing this as mostly null.

Thoughts?

[Faerie Knight]

I think that's null. Paper does respond to things and shows he's paying some attention, it can be said that all the "ic"'s simply mean he's thinking over things. As for his discussing Gilgamesh, the reason that part is twice as big is because he's unfamiliar to Paper, and half those logs are about how Gilga played in the one game he saw him in as far as I understand.

[Junk]

null to me. Basically only thing that makes it longer is gilgameshes first game and what happened in it,

[Faerie Knight]

why would hitman be the first thing i think of still rather than a standard nightkill that's in every game, which has a lot more thoughtful discussion to be had than a hitman kill since i thought the point of the question was saying something interesting rather than "refa will die if there's hitman"

A standard nightkill would give you more to discuss? Could you elaborate?

[Faerie Knight]

null to me. Basically only thing that makes it longer is gilgameshes first game and what happened in it,

So you're just agreeing with my making that point? Did you see my post?

[Junk]

I actually had typed it but then went to do something else and then posted it.

But yeah I agree with you.

[riariadne]

A standard nightkill would give you more to discuss? Could you elaborate?

What's thought-provoking about everyone agreeing "this person will die to hitman" when there is decent discussion to be had about other possible nightkills? It's a decent way of establishing agreed-upon townie folk or expressing reads. I said Mitsuki thinking she was acting townie but not so townie she'd be protected, for example.

I would like to hear from Darrman. I have talked little from him but what he did send me looked semi suspect (it was an SF PM asking about my thoughts on Refa because of the NL and he was like "something is up" so yeah)

There are other people I haven't talked to much too that I want to read. I am going to dinner and then I am going to seek y'all out.

[Faerie Knight]

What's thought-provoking about everyone agreeing "this person will die to hitman" when there is decent discussion to be had about other possible nightkills? It's a decent way of establishing agreed-upon townie folk or expressing reads. I said Mitsuki thinking she was acting townie but not so townie she'd be protected, for example.

I see. I think I'll ##Unvote, but you're still under watch.​​

[Faerie Knight]

I actually had typed it but then went to do something else and then posted it.

But yeah I agree with you.

Ok. At this point, I want to ask about anything, that's all.

[BBM]

FK, do you still think Rein is scum? And why?

[Faerie Knight]

I don't think he's scum anymore, but I have little to nothing on anyone else alive, so my eye is still on him.

[BBM]

Why did you think he was scum before? All that was there before, at least in-thread, was that he hadn't answered Mitsuki's case, but he wasn't the only one to not answer questions.